No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[Charlie744]

31 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Charlie read this as well.

 

Question: "Where did Old Testament believers/saints go when they died?"

Answer: The Old Testament believers went to a place of comfort and rest called “paradise” when they died. The Old Testament taught life after death and that everyone who departed from this life went to a place of conscious existence. The general term for this place was Sheol, which could be translated “the grave” or “the realm of the dead.” The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).

The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ’s resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham’s bosom or Abraham’s side) and a place of torment where the rich man was (hell). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called “paradise” (Luke 23:43). The place of torment is called “Gehenna” in the Greek in Mark 9:45. Between paradise and hell (the two districts of Hades) there was “a great chasm” (Luke 16:26). The fact that no one could cross this chasm indicates that, after death, one’s fate is sealed.

Today, when an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to the torment side of Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13–15).

On the other hand, when a believer dies today, he is “present with the Lord” in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:6–9). There, he joins the Old Testament saints who have been enjoying their reward for thousands of years.

A resurrection awaits everyone—either a resurrection to eternal life or a resurrection to “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2). The Bible clearly states that New Testament saints who have died will be resurrected at the event we call the rapture of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17). The Bible is less clear about when the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. It is our view that Old Testament believers will be joined to their resurrected bodies at the end of the tribulation period when Jesus returns to earth to set up His millennial kingdom (Isaiah 26:19; Hosea 13:14).

https://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-believers.html

 

missmuffet, I had almost completed a response to you but I hit the wrong button and lost it all... I will redo, Charlie

[R. Hartono]

10 hours ago, missmuffet said:

You did not answer my question if you believe in soul sleep. SDA, Christadeliphians and JW believe in soul sleep. It is not biblical which makes it a dangerous Christian theology to post on Worthy. You are allowing people to stumble and fall in their Christian faith. God does not like that. 

The harvest is at the end of times as Gabriel said abt Daniel's inheritance. Are u saying that Gabriel lied ?

Why wud God send back those souls from heaven to resurrect their bodies from graves n then take them back to heaven ? Does God hv nothing to do ? 

Those souls in paradeiso do not sleep. Its their bodies that is called "sleep" by Jesus because they await the harvest to take them to inheritance of heaven. Not forcing people to believe me.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by R. Hartono

[luigi]

I think there are some saints in heaven, such as Enoch and Moses and a few others. The rest, however, are currently under their alter, until the number of saints who are to be killed as those under the alter of love are killed is complete (Revelation 6:9-11).

[Starise]

@Charlie744 I hope you'll forgive me for  not quoting the post where you responded to mine, though I appreciate it. I am concerned that by the time I find it again I'll loose my main train of thought.

Just to attempt to help you understand a little better why I was questioning death with regard to how it is viewed, my "hang up" with death is Adam and Eve could make babies before the fall correct? What are the implications or procreation IF they had never sinned? How many immortal people would we have on the earth if NO ONE EVER DIED?  It would seem the earth would be OVERRUN with people.

One possible solution to that apparent dilemma is there might have still been a "life cycle" in place before men were told they would "die". While DEATH is the cost of sin, maybe something else was in place where we went from one state to another? I'll just leave it at that now because it probably isn't directly relevant to the topic at this time. Suffice it to say that presently, DEATH is our punishment for sin which means that PRESENTLY it is NOT NATURAL.

This is where I think we agree, because NOT BEING NATURAL has BIG implications at least for me.

If it(death) ISN'T natural or wasn't INTENDED ( and we know it originally wasn't), then what happens is something out of the original plan. This makes the idea that souls are at rest more feasible , for me especially in light of other scriptures.

God's original plan was for  WHOLE complete human beings to live in HIS presence on this earth..Not separated ones.

The idea of the separated human being composed of a "holy spirit" and a body is interesting the way you worded it. Especially the part about the spirit part of men not being aware. I think I was looking for this and couldn't find a way to synthesize it with what was happening.

I would only say that when you say HOLY SPIRIT it might be easy for some to misunderstand since that term is used often in other contexts. For me simply to say spirit is good enough. Thanks for your explanation.

@DeighAnn Thank you for your descriptions of how you see this! I'm not there yet. I can't get past the other scriptures that expressly say rest and sleep when talking about the dead in Christ. I'll tell you why I see it the way I do so far- Because like Charlie describes we can be with God and not aware presently. It's really as SIMPLE as that for me. Yes absent from the body for the Christian IS present with God. Yet where do we read of conversations taking place between risen saints in heaven? A few saints  were translated to heaven. They are a minority.

I am of the mindset the story of Lazarus IS a parable.

@miss muffet I have a lot of respect for Got Questions.org, yet I feel this has to be said, they don't always get it right.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Starise

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

I think there are some saints in heaven, such as Enoch and Moses and a few others. The rest, however, are currently under their alter, until the number of saints who are to be killed as those under the alter of love are killed is complete (Revelation 6:9-11).

I certainly can not argue with you on Enoch and Moses - If God wants them with Him in heaven... no argument here.  But I do find the verse in Revelation to be figurative and not literal... I believe it is just like the comment God made to Cain after he killed Able --- "the blood cries out from the ground".....

This of course does not mean the blood LITERALLY cried out to God and those that are killed before HIS return are not LITERALLY under the alter..... both, I believe are telling us of the blood that has been spilled by mankind and they await HIS return.

Just my thoughts, Charlie

[Charlie744]

4 minutes ago, Starise said:

@Charlie744 I hope you'll forgive me for  not quoting the post where you responded to mine, though I appreciate it. I am concerned that by the time I find it again I'll loose my main train of thought.

Just to attempt to help you understand a little better why I was questioning death with regard to how it is viewed, my "hang up" with death is Adam and Eve could make babies before the fall correct? What are the implications or procreation IF they had never sinned? How many immortal people would we have on the earth if NO ONE EVER DIED?  It would seem the earth would be OVERRUN with people.

Thanks for your thoughts.... I don't believe anyone can answer this... If God had wanted us to understand what would have occurred had Adam and Eve not sinned.... but they did and now we have to find our way back to HIM through HIS Plan of Salvation.  What we DO KNOW is that when they sinned both had to be removed from the Garden and FROM HIS PRESENCE SINCE THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT WAS BREATHED INTO THEM AT THEIR CREATION WAS REMOVED (my opinion). From that time on we are on a 6,000  year mission to be restored WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT and the ONLY way offered / given us was at Pentecost.... if we do NOT accept Jesus and HIS HOLY SPIRIT, we will be destroyed by HIS COMING.

4 minutes ago, Starise said:

One possible solution to that apparent dilemma is there might have still been a "life cycle" in place before men were told they would "die". While DEATH is the cost of sin, maybe something else was in place where we went from one state to another? I'll just leave it at that now because it probably isn't directly relevant to the topic at this time. Suffice it to say that presently, DEATH is our punishment for sin which means that PRESENTLY it is NOT NATURAL.

In my opinion, there was no life cycle or man or anything that existed before God created everything.... Adam and Eve were made in HIS image which means to me that they had HIS HOLY SPIRIT breathed into them and there was no such thing as "death"... it did not exist and would never have been if they did not sin. 

Their sin caused God to take back or remove their HOLY SPIRIT and thus they lost their immortality - now, they would surely die.

The end of all things is a restoration of those things that were in the beginning. Once again, for those that have accepted HIS HOLY SPIRIT, we will once again be given that immortal body and be with HIM forever... return to the pre-sin state where / when it all began.

 

4 minutes ago, Starise said:

This is where I think we agree, because NOT BEING NATURAL has BIG implications at least for me.

If it(death) ISN'T natural or wasn't INTENDED ( and we know it originally wasn't), then what happens is something out of the original plan. This makes the idea that souls are at rest more feasible , for me especially in light of other scriptures.

God's original plan was for  WHOLE complete human beings to live in HIS presence on this earth..Not separated ones.

 

I certainly agree here.

 

4 minutes ago, Starise said:

 

 

 

The idea of the separated human being composed of a "holy spirit" and a body is interesting the way you worded it. Especially the part about the spirit part of men not being aware. I think I was looking for this and couldn't find a way to synthesize it with what was happening.

I would only say that when you say HOLY SPIRIT it might be easy for some to misunderstand since that term is used often in other contexts. For me simply to say spirit is good enough. Thanks for your explanation.

I agree... there are so many interpretations our there... many / most still contend there are 3 parts to man - body, spirit and soul but Gen. 2:7 does not agree with that where the "soul" is the sum or product of the body and spirit. Obviously, man is more than just a physical body... it thinks, feels, is creative, can learn, emotional, and spiritual (animals lack some of these), but these "soft" skills are just another part or make up of man - we are both hardware and software, but the most important component of our "being" was when God breathed HIS HOLY SPIRIT INTO US - without that component we would never be able to be in HIS PRESENCE. Once we sinned, God can not be in the presence of sin, we lost this special gift and were also physically removed from the Garden.

4 minutes ago, Starise said:

@DeighAnn Thank you for your descriptions of how you see this! I'm not there yet. I can't get past the other scriptures that expressly say rest and sleep when talking about the dead in Christ. I'll tell you why I see it the way I do so far- Because like Charlie describes we can be with God and not aware presently. It's really as SIMPLE as that for me. Yes absent from the body for the Christian IS present with God. Yet where do we read of conversations taking place between risen saints in heaven? A few saints  were translated to heaven. They are a minority.

I am of the mindset the story of Lazarus IS a parable.

@miss muffet I have a lot of respect for Got Questions.org, yet I feel this has to be said, they don't always get it right.

 

 

 

[luigi]

58 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I certainly can not argue with you on Enoch and Moses - If God wants them with Him in heaven... no argument here.  But I do find the verse in Revelation to be figurative and not literal... I believe it is just like the comment God made to Cain after he killed Able --- "the blood cries out from the ground".....

This of course does not mean the blood LITERALLY cried out to God and those that are killed before HIS return are not LITERALLY under the alter..... both, I believe are telling us of the blood that has been spilled by mankind and they await HIS return.

Just my thoughts, Charlie

Correlating with Revelation 6:9-11, in support of the saints sleeping is Isaiah 26:19-21, where the saints being killed then enter their chambers, shutting the doors about them, until the indignation is overpast, and the Lord comes out to then punish the inhabitants of the earth for their murdering of the saints.

 

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, luigi said:

Correlating with Revelation 6:9-11, in support of the saints sleeping is Isaiah 26:19-21, where the saints being killed then enter their chambers, shutting the doors about them, until the indignation is overpast, and the Lord comes out to then punish the inhabitants of the earth for their murdering of the saints.

 

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Ok... does this tell you that Isaiah is speaking about a time in the future when God will restore us? Charlie 

[luigi]

8 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Ok... does this tell you that Isaiah is speaking about a time in the future when God will restore us? Charlie 

Absolutely tells me that Isaiah is speaking about a time in the future, when Isaiah along with the other saints will then be resurrected.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, luigi said:

Absolutely tells me that Isaiah is speaking about a time in the future, when Isaiah along with the other saints will then be resurrected.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

But what is it telling you?