No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I disagree. It was a story, not a parable. But even if it was a parable, it was a parable about a CERTAIN rich man.  In other words, it was a parable about a real human being.  And even if not, It was TRUTH, for Jesus could say nothing but TRUTH. 

The truth is, when people die, their spirit with the soul leaves the body and is escorted either to heaven or to hell. 

After 2000 years of church history, we have many testimonies of people who have died, experienced what came next, but were prayed back to their bodies, to know what really happens: just what Paul said, when we are absent from our body we are present with the Lord, if indeed we are born again.

If not born again, the human spirit is dragged by demonic spirits down into hell.  I know one man who testified of dying 4 times in a row, in a short period of time. The first three times his spirit went down to the gates of hell - he saw the fires - but a voice spoke and he went back into his body. The third time going down he began to repent, and continued as he went back into his body. The 4th time he died, his spirit started up, not down, because he was then born again. This time he understood what God spoke: it was not time for him to die because he had work to do.  He lived many years after these events.

Soul-sleep is nothing but a MYTH. Human spirits do not need sleep.

Now you do know that is the same story he had given to his wife... I also know that man .... I just happened to be in the same elevator with him that evening. He was completely drunk and kept pushing the wrong buttons - up and down we went for 10 minutes..... he kept saying this has got to be hell... I want out of here. Then we got to the 10th floor, the elevator door opened and I kicked him out and told him " the next time I see him I will kill him.... your lucky to be alive". The elevator door closed and that is the "true story". 

Now, is that a parable or a story? It's in the Bible!  Charlie

 

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, you think by changing the bible translation to not everyone will DIE makes it only mean die, even though it means they sleep or rest, even though that is not what it means and I can prove it. To SLEEP means to die then rest. 

I never change translations to prove a point, I stay with the KJV or if I see someone is confused by the KJV I change to the HCSB. Changing a translation to try and prove a point only leads you down deeper rabbit holes.

1 Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

You can try to AVOID this verse, but it is not going away brother.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

WHEN is the DEAD raised according o Paul? At the LAST TRUMP !! 

Now, you can believe we go straight to heaven all you want to brother, Paul says it is not so, the DEAD are RAISED at the LAST TRUMP !!

How do misconstrue this? So, if the have been DEAD for 500 years, 250 years, 1900 years, then they have been RESTING or SLEEPING as Paul stated, He never just stated they died and went straight to Heave anywhere. You just believed that, so it became a FACTOID unto you, even though its just not factual brother. 

So, if we go straight to Heaven or Hell, why are those who died during the 70th week, you know the Martyrs, judged in Rev. 20:4 AFTER Jesus' Second Coming? And why is it that those you say go straight to hell aren't really judged until the Second Resurrection after Jesus' 1000 year rule on earth? 

And Daniel is told he will be raised up at the very end to stand in his lot. God doesn't change. You have just misconstrued the passage brother. 

 

The 24 Elders are the Raptured Church. Of course the Raptured Church is in Heaven during the 70th week, which starts via the Rev. 4:1 RAPTURE.

For someone that thinks they know, you certainly are wrong about so many things.

The 24 Elders are the Raptured Church...

John saw the 24 elders in a throne room back in his history - a throne room while Jesus was on earth. The church was not even started while Jesus was walking the earth.  Many people guess on who these 24 were that John saw, but John does not tell us. 

Of course the Raptured Church is in Heaven during the 70th week You got this part right. All of the 70th week comes with the wrath of God as a part of the Day of the Lord, so of course we won't be here for His wrath.

the 70th week, which starts via the Rev. 4:1 RAPTURE. Here you write MYTH. Rev. 4:1 is JOHN called up to heaven around 95 AD. The 70th week is future to us today. 

And Daniel is told he will be raised up at the very end to stand in his lot. God doesn't change. You have just misconstrued the passage brother.  Daniel is and Old Testament saint and will be raised with all the rest of the Old Testament saints. Where does John show the resurrection of the Old Testament saints? This great event was NOT SHOWN to John, but God did give us clues. Their resurrection will align with the resurrection of the Two witnesses at the greatest earthquake ever (the 7th vial earthquake) where God raises those from before the flood. This resurrection will cause the earth to shake as never before as God brings the dust of those bodies who died before the flood together and reforms them back into living bodies. By the way, you imagine the "misconstrued" only because you disagree. We will let God judge who is misconstruing scripture. You have been wrong in all but one of the points above. 

I hope you realize that the 70th week martyrs, the beheaded shown in Rev. 20 will be the last generation before the millennial reign. Since the church will be at the judgment seat of Christ before and/or during the 70th week, many of these martyrs will still be alive. They will be beheaded during the last half of the week. 

WHEN is the DEAD raised according o Paul? At the LAST TRUMP !! 

Now, you can believe we go straight to heaven all you want to brother, Paul says it is not so, the DEAD are RAISED at the LAST TRUMP !! This is speaking of the BODIES  - not the spirits. Jesus will bring the spirits of the dead in Christ WITH HIM from heaven. How can anyone miss something so simple? Let's put  1 and 1 together to make 2, and see how simple this is. For 2000 years those in Christ have grown old and died, and their spirits escorted to heaven. When the time comes, the Father will tell the Son, "go get my bride," or something similar, and Jesus will descend to the air can resurrect the bodies of all those spirits whom He brought with Him from heaven. They will then join with their resurrection bodies and will finally be complete again, spirit, soul and body. 

A moment later, those who are alive and remain will be caught up to John the dead in Christ now resurrected.

The very word "resurrect" is speaking of flesh, not spirit. From the story of the rich man and Lazarus, we know that after death people remember, speak, and feel. The human spirit does not require sleep. 

All this is in perfect harmony with Paul's scriptures. That is my untold millions of believers today believe it.

then they have been RESTING or SLEEPING  You must learn to differentiate between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. We might say the body sleeps in death because it does not move - there is no life there. There are no scriptures that teach soul sleep. That theory is total myth.  Just believe God and Paul: when the spirit is separated from the body (physical death) the spirit is then present with the Lord.  Just so you know, in all of time, before time and after time, there is only one time where human spirits are separated from their body - and that is when the body dies.  They will remain separated - spirit from body - until resurrection day. Therefore, when Paul wrote "absent from the body," he is speaking of physical death.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Charlie744 said:

Now you do know that is the same story he had given to his wife... I also know that man .... I just happened to be in the same elevator with him that evening. He was completely drunk and kept pushing the wrong buttons - up and down we went for 10 minutes..... he kept saying this has got to be hell... I want out of here. Then we got to the 10th floor, the elevator door opened and I kicked him out and told him " the next time I see him I will kill him.... your lucky to be alive". The elevator door closed and that is the "true story". 

Now, is that a parable or a story? It's in the Bible!  Charlie

You have a great imagination. 

[Starise]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is no "play" in the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

If it's a parable it isn't relevant to a real place or places and instead , teaches us ideas about how things are different after we die, especially concerning the rich who lived for only themselves with no ideas about the future while being poor down here will not hold a spiritual person back in the next life. Consider this: Nowhere else do I read of a gulf where one side can actually look in on the other side , or maybe better said those in hell can see those in heaven. In fact the rest of the Bible teaches quite the opposite. The people who reject God will have zero access to those who are in God's keeping. The two locations are far removed, making it seem far more likely this is a parable story that teaches concepts, especially when hell in this context is referenced in the Greek translations to English. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Consider the actions of God based on man's limited knowledge of history and how God operates. Most often Gods judgements are patient, longsuffering and most importantly DELAYED. The ship turn slowly but when it does LOOK OUT if you are found wanting and not under the blood.

16 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

It speaks abt the real situation when people die, their souls go to gehena, the paradise part for good people or the fire part for bad people.

Not trying to put you on the spot here @ R. Hartono. If this is a real place can you refer me to other scriptures to correlate it? Thanks.

[Starise]

29 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

John saw the 24 elders in a throne room back in his history - a throne room while Jesus was on earth. The church was not even started while Jesus was walking the earth.  Many people guess on who these 24 were that John saw, but John does not tell us. 

In my opinion it makes sense that the 24 elder are part of the Elohim ruling council. They are not human.

@iamlamad  Can you show me where there is a difference between OT dead and NT dead? I don't see it.

33 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

hen they have been RESTING or SLEEPING  You must learn to differentiate between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. We might say the body sleeps in death because it does not move - there is no life there. There are no scriptures that teach soul sleep. That theory is total myth.  Just believe God and Paul: when the spirit is separated from the body (physical death) the spirit is then present with the Lord.  Just so you know, in all of time, before time and after time, there is only one time where human spirits are separated from their body - and that is when the body dies.  They will remain separated - spirit from body - until resurrection day. Therefore, when Paul wrote "absent from the body," he is speaking of physical death.

I don't follow a specific teaching such as soul sleep. I simply read the Bible. Much support for one teaching assumes what you have stated above. There is a separation with a dead body that's "asleep". I would counter. No it isn't asleep. It's DEAD. That only leaves the soul. Or as some might call it the "spirit body". That pretty much runs us into only one conclusion here. It's the soul that's resting in the Lord.

[missmuffet]

18 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Imho Its their body that is called 'sleeping' because all are awaiting, the harvest for the good souls of saints n the judgment for the bad attitudes.

Yes, it is the body that is sleeping not the soul. The soul is gone either to heaven or hades. The body will be resurrected. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

In my opinion it makes sense that the 24 elder are part of the Elohim ruling council. They are not human.

@iamlamad  Can you show me where there is a difference between OT dead and NT dead? I don't see it.

I don't follow a specific teaching such as soul sleep. I simply read the Bible. Much support for one teaching assumes what you have stated above. There is a separation with a dead body that's "asleep". I would counter. No it isn't asleep. It's DEAD. That only leaves the soul. Or as some might call it the "spirit body". That pretty much runs us into only one conclusion here. It's the soul that's resting in the Lord.

John does not tell us who the 24 elders are, so I don't try to guess. At that timing, while Jesus was still on earth (the timing inside the vision John was seeing) only Old Testament saints (in their spirit form) were in heaven. They could therefore be Old Testament saints, such as Adam and Seth. Who could be more "elder" than them? 

The New Testament saints are a part of the born again body of Christ on earth. That was not available until after Jesus died and rose from the dead - so clearly two different groups of saints.  

The story of the rich man and lazarus leaves no room for guessing.  It is clear the bible often uses the word "sleep" for death.  Since you go by reading the scriptures, Paul wrote that Jesus will bring WITH Him those who have died in christ.

 ...even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

... shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Do you really think they will be "sleeping" in their spirit form in heaven?  I don't think so. I think "sleep in Jesus" is talking about those who have died in Christ.

The rest of the passage bears this out.

 

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For someone that thinks they know, you certainly are wrong about so many things.

The 24 Elders are the Raptured Church...

John saw the 24 elders in a throne room back in his history - a throne room while Jesus was on earth. The church was not even started while Jesus was walking the earth.  Many people guess on who these 24 were that John saw, but John does not tell us. 

When you start arguing we are already in the Seals is when I start becoming amused, and not taking you serious brother. I tune out at this point. As I have told you before, I will not even oblige debate on this, it is nonsensical to me that we are already in the Seals, and no matter how many times anyone shows you that via "YOUR UNDERSTANDING" Jesus would have to be a NOWHERE MAN, you just keep goin down that road.

I am not even going to read the rest of it, it would be counter intuitive to do so. In other words its not even a debatable point sir. God bless.

[Revelation Man]

On 2/12/2021 at 12:25 PM, missmuffet said:

Yes, it is the body that is sleeping not the soul. The soul is gone either to heaven or hades. The body will be resurrected. 

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

No flesh has a conscience, thus it can not sleep/rest. Paul tells us above the Spirit man is RAISED, not the CORRIPTIBLE FLESH that can not go to heaven. 

I mean, what do people think is "CHANGED" in the twinkling of an eye? It is this HUMAN BODY (if we are alive) being SHED (we leave our corrupt sin bodies on earth and ZOOM off to Heaven as Spirit men) and thus we are now only Spirit men, the same as those who have died and are then RAISED as Spirit men ONLY, that is what it means when it says they are raised WITHOUT CORRUPTION (Sin flesh)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible(Without Sin flesh), and we shall be changed.(From men in bodies with Sin flesh to SPIRIT MEN)

53 For this corruptible(Sin flesh) must put on incorruption(Spirit man), and this mortal(Sin flesh which decays) must put on immortality(Spirit man which never dies).

It took me 25 years to see this also, it is what it is, I am only teaching the facts, I really do not care what people think or don't think, God has commanded me to teach His Gospel and I have been doing that for 35 years. If I have to lay down my life to preach the truth, I will do that. 

But, for me I am fortunate, I see the Rapture within 5 years, whereas our brothers actually had to lay down their lives to speak the truths in the early church. So, I feel blessed. Amen.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Revelation Man

[R. Hartono]

5 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Yes, it is the body that is sleeping not the soul. The soul is gone either to heaven or hades. The body will be resurrected. 

The Harvest shall be gathered to heaven and has yet to happen.