Protestant? Catholic? Confused...

[LearningToLetGo]

Once more I'd like to thank everyone for contributing. I never imagined there would be enough in a handful of verses to keep this thread alive for over 100 posts! Shocked, I am. I'm also learning a lot. I hope others are too. It's good to be able to clearly articulate and defend one's faith and this dialog is greatly helping to do this.

 

Jason

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, LearningToLetGo said:

and then says "on this rock I will build my church."

Aaaahhhh !! Now we get to the nub of the issue ...

for 'my church' is Pentecostal and Spirit-filled with all disciples praying in tongues, laying hands on the sick, casting out demons in the name of Jesus, and a church full of miracles, wonders and testimonies to the power of God in disciples. 

"My church" is not the Roman Catholics, nor the Eastern Orthodox Churches, nor the Lutherans, nor the Methodists, nor the Quakers, nor the Baptists, nor any other denomination that is short of the full gospel of salvation. 

The church of the first century was Pentecostal > repentance, full immersion water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism with the Bible evidence of praying in tongues. Miracles, healings, signs following and nine gifts of the Holy Spirit given abundantly to believers for the benefit of the body of Christ.

[Whyme]

3 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

We are living stones like Christ and we are preists like Him too. Good scripture.

[Starise]

11 hours ago, Waggles said:

Aaaahhhh !! Now we get to the nub of the issue ...

for 'my church' is Pentecostal and Spirit-filled with all disciples praying in tongues, laying hands on the sick, casting out demons in the name of Jesus, and a church full of miracles, wonders and testimonies to the power of God in disciples. 

"My church" is not the Roman Catholics, nor the Eastern Orthodox Churches, nor the Lutherans, nor the Methodists, nor the Quakers, nor the Baptists, nor any other denomination that is short of the full gospel of salvation. 

The church of the first century was Pentecostal > repentance, full immersion water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism with the Bible evidence of praying in tongues. Miracles, healings, signs following and nine gifts of the Holy Spirit given abundantly to believers for the benefit of the body of Christ.

Since there are no perfect  churches, "your church" is full of hopefully saved sinners who are no more or less spirit filled than thousands of other Christians in many other different kinds of churches. The deeper you dig I'm sure the worse it will smell if you look at those "spirit filled" people you are so sure of.

If the Pentecostal church was really THE church, any reasonable Christian would be Pentecostal. As you can clearly see this is not the case. Ask yourself why?

[Duck]

23 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Paying big money for indulgences, to get loved ones out of Purgatory faster.

Pretty sure they haven’t done this for centuries. There is still masses or prayers for the dead (remembrance) and candle lighting though. So in effect, it’s spiritualism at best.

praying to Mary is still done as she’s seen as an intercessor for sinners. I know!

there are many cultish churches though, not just rcc

control is witchcraft

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Duck

[Waggles]

5 hours ago, Starise said:

As you can clearly see this is not the case. Ask yourself why?

That is to do with the hearts of men and women. Not all people want to believe the scriptures above their allegiance and fondness for what is familiar in their lives. 

Not everybody responds to the scriptures with an open heart and a desire for a personal relationship with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Cessationists in all churches have done much work in denying the scriptures and teaching that the signs and gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today. 

I have laid hands on people and also prayed from afar for people with serious ailments and they have been miraculously healed. Then I have also witnessed to them that they too can receive the Holy Spirit and pray in tongues for miracles and healings. And I get a "thanks for the healing. Your faith is wonderful, but as for me (various excuses)."

Mark 16:15-20 and Acts is still a stumbling block for most church Christians. 

Timing. The worldwide Pentecostal revival occurring these days is a sign that truly we are in the last of last days.

[JohnR7]

On 2/11/2021 at 11:39 AM, LearningToLetGo said:

How do the various Protestant traditions reconcile Matthew 16:18-19 which appears to be a direct mandate from Jesus to Peter to establish the church?

 

There are 7 churches in the book of Rev and all seven took the gospel to the world. The Catholic Church is the Roman Church. 

Revelation 1:4
John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from Him who is and was and is to come, and from the seven Spirits before His throne,

[JohnR7]

On 2/17/2021 at 9:21 PM, Waggles said:

The church of the first century was Pentecostal > repentance, full immersion water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism with the Bible evidence of praying in tongues. Miracles, healings, signs following and nine gifts of the Holy Spirit given abundantly to believers for the benefit of the body of Christ.

I remember 30 years ago we struggles to have as much of the power of God as the early church. Now we are going way beyond that. The world is more evil and it takes more of he power of God to deliver people and set them free. Also this is the great and final harvest so we are in the latter rain to create fruit in people. Jesus clearly says we will do greater works than He did. "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father". (John 14:12)

We just say this with the recent storm. The temp dropped down to five degrees and the prayer warriors in Florida prayed to send us their warm weather. They cut that whole weather pattern into two different storms and our temp went up to a sunny 29 degrees. I have seen Pat Robertson do that for years. Storms will be headed straight for them and he will pray them out over the ocean and away from their city. 

 

[JohnD]

On 2/11/2021 at 10:39 AM, LearningToLetGo said:

How do the various Protestant traditions reconcile Matthew 16:18-19 which appears to be a direct mandate from Jesus to Peter to establish the church?

 

Mark 7:13 (NIV84)
13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

Mark 7:7 (NIV84)
7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’

If God just wanted a religion (human tradition) Judaism (the Law of Moses) would have been it. Nothing more.

But one of the purposes of the Law was to show / prove religion doesn't work - can't work, and is NOT what God wants.

Mankind is incurably religious by nature. Look at all the pagan religions formed in ignorance and superstition  about nature, spiritism, the cosmos that used to be worshiped (the names of the days of the week to this day come from this). Some believed Yahweh was the God of the mountains as opposed to their god of the coastal plain... etc. 

Throughout the Bible men and women who were not entangled in the practices and beliefs of traditional religion but walked directly with God were the pillars of faith.

We loves our pomp and our circumstances... or our bread and circuses...

The liver quiver... the burning in the bosom... the long flowing robes... the thunderous pipe organ... holy water, holy smoke (incense)... the stained glass windows... the cavernous cathedrals and sanctuaries...

And most of all, we love passing the buck of our duty and responsibility to God... off on others who are the "paid help" the "professional believers."

In many ways there's not much difference between Protestantism or Roman Catholicism... for the Reformation movement did not reform nearly far enough from the traditions of man. Many Protestant denominations have a striking resemblance to Roman Catholicism.   Especially in the older Protestant denominations.

I'm asked why I call Catholics Roman Catholics almost all the time?  Because Roman Catholicism is what the Roman Empire morphed into.

I doubt the ol' boy figured this out so far ahead, but Emperor Constantine saw in burgeoning Christianity a cohesiveness his crumbling Empire sadly lacked. Even a second capital city had to be established to deal with the world power of that day collapsing under its own weight. Tradition clouds what did and what didn't transpire... but the general idea is his mother was either a believer or extremely emotionally influenced by Christianity. She plied her son with her new found faith and/or infatuation and Constantine took it from there.

Some traditions clearly state that Constantine worshipped the sun god to the day of his death. ← forgive me for not having the references to cite. It's been a while and I am quite rusty on this The references I had were two computers ago. And I know of no one who actually looked them up or were the least bit swayed by them (because people believe what they want to believe no matter what, sadly).

Constantine did legalize Christianity throughout the Empire. He claimed he had a Christian experience, and he commissioned at least one Christian council. "Ollie Ollie Oxen Free..." Come out come out wherever you are... for Christians were underground / dug in deep from all the persecution (first of the Jews then of the Romans).  Christians were often thrown into the Colosseum to fight Roman soldiers whose training was far superior to anyone else, Christians we "fed to the lions" there as well, or even burned at the stake. Nero even had Christians burned at the stake at dinner functions as entertainment← this may have even started the burning of Rome which Nero blamed on the Christians... who were no doubt on fire at the time. 

So to hear from the very devil himself (in the minds of believers hiding for their lives) that it's now okay to be Christian... must have been met with no small amount of skepticism... but eventually believers came out. Before this time, believers were too scared to even admit they believed. This is where the Jesus fish came from.  A believer made a curved line with their toe in the sand. If the other person was also a believer, they would make a curved line with their toe that completed the fish symbol.

Long story short... we can see the Romanization of the Church in that now there's a Pope instead of an Emperor, Cardinals instead of a Senate, Bishops instead of regional governors, and the Capital City is strangely near Rome.

Also we have the incorrect historic Christian monuments á la Constantine's Mother... Sinai (which is in Saudi Arabia see Galatians 4:25), the combined crucifixion and burial site of Christ (now the Church of the Holy Sepulcher) when Gordon's Calvary appears to match more biblical description:

• outside the city walls (Hebrews 13:12)
• near the fish gate (Zephaniah 1:10) 
• place of the skull (outcropping of rock resembles a human skull)

With the tomb in some other disclosed place. Joseph or Arimathea who owned the tomb was wealthy, but to own a tomb in the city walls that near the Temple Mount would be unlikely for even a very rich man to have in the  1st Century... 

Thus began the sidetrack,  deviation, off ramp from mainstream Christianity into what Roman Catholicism led the world into.

Then came the Protestant Reformation which European religious wars between Protestants and Catholics exceed 5,000,000.

Until the Romans realized there was little to any significance between the two.

Edited February 19, 2021 by JohnD

[Justin Adams]

20 minutes ago, JohnD said:

the fish symbol.

Brilliant. Well said. Thanks!!