Not that many of you want to know, but some of my thoughts on free will

[DeighAnn]

WHAT IF

There was the time before now when Satan went bad and caused the first separation between us.  There is this flesh now in which Satan still has influence but not at the same power level as before (except last generation)  then the millennium where he will have none (power) until the final exam.  

You passed in the first (justified in the second), or you pass in this second (reign with Christ 1000 years) or you pass or fail at the end of the Lords Day.  (on to new heaven and earth or lake of fire)  

 

Would explain this
Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


Would explain this
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.



Would explain this

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

[Michael37]

21 hours ago, SONshine said:

Agreed. A no-brainer but not proof that we don't have God-given senses and faculties to decide anything with, whether to follow Christ or not, whether to come to the wedding feast to which all are invited by God, or to refuse the invitation. 

[Michael37]

20 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Hyperbole; over and under statements that are polemic in nature are all over our scriptures. I have a somewhat eastern mentality and recognize this. Some do not and take the words used over literally in may cases and medically sanitized of all inferences.

So me and God decide to have a chess match. God says, "I will win without predestinating any of your moves. I will win because I am God".

So I say. "Agreed". Therefore we never have that match.

Did it happen or not?

It happened because I agreed to be God's instrument, and He agreed to sacrifice His King.

[Dennis1209]

On 3/16/2021 at 3:00 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

And I am not saying that omniscience is the same as predestination, but if God knows that something is going to happen, it will happen, and as such is no more escape able that the concept of predestination is. 

Foreknowledge is not the cause of how things come about (in my opinion) but the do coincide.

However I should probably clarify that I do not equate omniscience to foreknowledge, though I am not saying that they are totally isolated from each other.

When we speak of omniscience, we mean knowing everything,even the future. The problem is that the Bible sometimes uses knowledge in a different way. 

Adam knew his wife

Joseph did not know Mary until after Jesus was born

Depart from me, I never knew you

For those he foreknew,He also predestined

I submit that the first two there are talking about a special intimacy, certainly I do not need to make case that Adam and Eve and Joseph and Mary had just become aquainted.

I suggest that the second two are also not about mere intellectual knowledge of facts is mere familiarity.

Jesus when He says depart from me, He is not saying that He was never aware of them, He is saying that they never has an intimate love relationship with them.

Same with those He foreknew. In terms of head knowledge. God knows about everyone, but He does not predestine everyone to be confirmed tongue image of His Son.

That is reserve for those He foreknew, as in foreloved.

"Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated!" Harsh, but that is what the text says!

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the same topic; what's your opinion on 1 Samuel 23:11-13? Pertaining to omniscience, predestination and free will? That those things didn't happen? All the possibilities and outcomes?

[Omegaman 3.0]

Hmm, I just ran across something which I had written previously, that makes the explanation of the thought which I was trying to answer here, when I started this thread.

Amendment:

On Mar 24, 2021 I corrected some unctuation and spelling errors, on the link that I am about to paste in this post. If interested, read it, if not, no hurt feelings here!

 

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 3/18/2021 at 4:10 PM, Dennis1209 said:

On the same topic; what's your opinion on 1 Samuel 23:11-13? Pertaining to omniscience, predestination and free will? That those things didn't happen? All the possibilities and outcomes?

Quote

 11Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O LORD, the God of Israel, please tell your servant.” And the LORD said, “He will come down.” 12Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the LORD said, “They will surrender you.” 13Then David and his men, who were about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the expedition. 

To be honest Dennis, I don't think I fully understand the question. I will say that God can speak from omniscience. Sometimes He does that, and we call it prophecy, if it is expressed to us by a human writer or speaker, a prophet. What God says will come to pass, does.

Sometimes though also, such expression is predicated on conditions, "if you do thins, then".

It strikes me also, that our actions might have a bearing on the future also. For example, I am not sure why Jesus would tell His disciples: "Pray that your flight does not take place in winter, or on the Sabbath" if things are carved in stone. Why would they pray, if their prayer would not affect the outcome? Of course, just because prayer might affect outcome, that does not mean that God did not know whet the outcome would be, only that people are invited to participate.

Paul prayed for the salvation of Israel, but that does not mean, that God has not elected some to salavtion, and others not. We do not evangelize or fail to evangelize based on our understanding or misunderstanding about how free will and election work, we do it because we are told to, and because we love others, because we are told to, and are obedient. We have the opportunity to be part of the process, instruments of God! If we do not do it, it does not mean that God will not save them, if just means that another will get the reward form their obedience.

I do not know if any of this addresses what you are asking, perhaps you can explain it more thoroughly, what it is you are fishing for.

[Marathoner]

On 3/14/2021 at 5:57 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Thoughts on Free Will

The following is an explanation of something I have said regarding what I believe about free will. I was asked to explain what I meant, so that is what I am attempting to do here. My response is:

OKAY, what you partially quoted was me saying this:

I enjoy free will, and what I believe about it is: You are free to choose to do what you want to do, but you are not free to choose what it is that you want to do, nor are you necessarily able, to do what you choose to do!

I think perhaps the best way to explain this is giving examples of those three aspects of free will which I believe.

1.       “You are free to choose to do WHAT you want to do”

For example, you may choose to jump out of a flying airplane and flap your arms in an effort to fly. If that is what you want to, then yes, you are free to make that choice that is your free will.

2.      “but you are not free to choose what it IS that you want to do”

Now you could choose to poke your eye out with a pencil, but you not able to choose to want that. You either want that, or you do not. While some people may actually want that, I doubt they choose to want that, they just want what they want, without even thinking about it. However, most do not want that and they cannot want that, it is outside of their control.

3.      “nor are you necessarily ABLE to do what you choose to do!”

Going back the airplane illustration, you might make that choice to jump out, flap your arms and fly. However no matter how much you want that, no matter if you choose that, there are factors involved that prevent you from being able to fly in that manner.

I believe these three thing are pretty much what can be said about free will, in terms of what you can choose freely (anything you want), what you are unable to choose limited by aspects of your own personality (which could change), and your powerlessness to make your choices happen.

Summary:
You can choose what you want,
 You cannot choose what to want,
 You have limited power to make your choices effective.

The above are just in general, but when we begin to discuss theology, it becomes more complicated. Why? Because our will is not the only will involved. Perhaps there is another person (God) who has a say in all of this.

For example, many Christians believe that as a free will choice, they decided to have Jesus the Christ as their Lord and Savior. They might even know the time and place they made that decision, and the circumstances surrounding that choice. I myself recall where I was, approximately when, and under what circumstances I made the choice. From the standpoint of my perspective, I made the choice, and I was not forced to, I freely chose.

However, What if there is a being, who created me, and by virtue of His creation, He owns me, is sovereign and can do with me as He sees fit, without even asking my permission?

Suppose such a One, chose me to choose Him? If He did, would that be free will on my part? What if I was unable to choose Him, because as a sinner, I am not inclined to the things of God, but am hostile and rebellious?  My nature as a sinner, dictates to me what I will choose.

 

Everything is limited by it’s own nature (outside of the miraculous). Iron horse shoes will not float in liquid water, where gravity is involved. People cannot flap their arms and fly. Even God is not able to do everything, His nature limits Him.

So, what if I am a slave to sin, and it masters me?

If that were the case, then I am a captive in need of liberation, though God does not owe me anything. He does not even owe me an explanation for what He does; after all, He is God!

How do these things interplay, God and human free will?

There once was a man named Jonah. One day, God told him to go preach to the Ninevites about their evil. Jonah did not like the Ninevites, so he thought to himself: “I think I will take a vacation in Tarshish, in the opposite direction. That is how rebellious humans use their free will.

In spite of Jonah’s free will, God was not going to just let Jonah just do as he pleased. So God prepared a big fish, to give Jonah a free ride back in the direction of Nineveh. The fish vomited Jonah onto a beach, but he was still a long walk from Nineveh. I suspect that Jonah had some time to rethink this and consider his options. He could choose to do what he wanted to, but that was not working out too well for him. He wasn’t thrilled with the idea of going to Nineveh, but the option was not attractive. Now he chose to do what God said. He made that decision. While it was made begrudgingly, I submit that is was STILL his free will.

Here is the thing though:
God ALSO has free will. In a battle of wills, who will win? In some cases, I think it is true, that some are stubborn, and God lets them have their way. However, that isn’t really winning, that is a tragic loss.

God could have, of course, made Jonah go to Nineveh, moving Jonah’s feet, and opening his mouth to make him preach. He used a donkey to speak once; he can certainly use a wayward prophet. However, God does not seem to want to make marionettes out of people.

As in the case of Jonah, God does not make people go against their will, but He sure can make them willing to go!

There is another thing that is something to think about. Do you believe that God know everything, including the future? I do. So, if God knew that I would someday choose His Son, Jesus, will it turn out to be just as He foresaw it? I think the answer to that question is “Yes”. I am not saying that God chose to save me, based on what he foresaw me doing eventually. After all, He chose me, I did not chose Him.

Eph 1:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 

So, I would submit that people might want to ponder:

If God knew that I was going to choose Him, and that was definetly how it was going to turn out, predestined, as the verse says, is there any other way it would turn out? If not, what does that mean with respect to our free will? Can we make a free will choice that makes God wrong?

An enjoyable read and I'm in agreement with much of what you wrote, @Omegaman 3.0. You touch upon the limitations of man's will very well, which is not free until our Lord Jesus Christ sets us free so we might serve the will of our Father in heaven in the knowledge and wisdom of His Holy Spirit, thereby becoming the children of His promise. What?

All things serve the Lord.

Forever, LORD,
Your word stands in heaven.
Your faithfulness continues throughout generations;
You established the earth, and it stands.
They stand this day by Your ordinances,
For all things are Your servants. 
(Psalm 119:89-91) 

Who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His councilor? (Romans 11:34, also 1 Corinthians 2:11). Indeed, even Satan serves the purpose of the Lord as the opening verses of the book of Job reveal to us (Job 1:6-12). And so we, being made a little lower than the angels, question the Lord and ponder His mind and will, never comprehending that unless the Almighty is pleased to reveal His hand to us we will never know. 

The Lord does not require our knowledge nor agreement for His will to be fulfilled. Where were we when the Son of God created all things seen and unseen? When did we ascend to heaven where God sits upon His throne so that we might know all things? I remember the words of Agur:

I am certainly more stupid than any man,
And I do not have the understanding of a man;
Nor have I learned wisdom,
Nor do I have the knowledge of the Holy One.
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name or His Son’s name?
Surely you know! 
(Proverbs 30:1-4)

Many men ponder and pontificate upon matters according to their insular perspective. Who says that God knows the "future" when all things are revealed to His sight? The Lord is not like a man upon this earth under heaven. 

Remember this, and be assured;
Recall it to mind, you wrongdoers.
Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My plan will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of My purpose from a distant country.
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, I will certainly do it.
(Isaiah 46:8-11)

It is only the future to us on earth where there's an appointed time for every matter under heaven (Ecclesiastes 3). Everything is finished where God sits upon His throne in heaven. If this is a hard thing for some to grasp, then consider these passages from Ephesians. 

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-7)

We're already seated with Jesus Christ our Lord in the heavenly places, but yet we toil in this world where we're aliens and sojourners. This speaks of the duality of reality, something which men who rely upon their own understanding cannot see nor grab hold of. Some view this as a "future" event.

The following is where we're not in agreement, my friend. I've searched the scriptures and cannot find passages which articulate how the Lord knew we would choose Him for this asserts that we are somehow "free agents" outside of God's will and purpose. We're somehow on equal footing with the Lord! But there's no other like Him. Refer to the scriptures which tell us, "For all things are Your servants." This includes man in his ignorance and enslavement to unrighteousness. 

What we find are a preponderance of scriptural passages which tell us the opposite: God chose us. Many passages have been shared elsewhere on the forum so for the sake of space (this post is already rather long) I'll limit my reference to the following:

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

We didn't choose God, He chose us.  

Edited March 24, 2021 by Marathoner
typos

[Marathoner]

On 3/17/2021 at 11:56 AM, DeighAnn said:

WHAT IF

There was the time before now when Satan went bad and caused the first separation between us.  There is this flesh now in which Satan still has influence but not at the same power level as before (except last generation)  then the millennium where he will have none (power) until the final exam.  

You passed in the first (justified in the second), or you pass in this second (reign with Christ 1000 years) or you pass or fail at the end of the Lords Day.  (on to new heaven and earth or lake of fire) 

There's a problem with with your "what if," sister: salvation therefore becomes our work which most assuredly it's not. Pass or fail revolves around our performance and not the will and purpose of God. The Lord is the Potter and we are clay in His hand.  

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Marathoner said:

There's a problem with with your "what if," sister: salvation therefore becomes our work which most assuredly it's not. Pass or fail revolves around our performance and not the will and purpose of God. The Lord is the Potter and we are clay in His hand.  

Here is my problem, (MY), BECAUSE this comes up so often (when imho, it never should) and it seems to make me a little nuts, so please take that into consideration as I have re written this a number of times trying to make it nice to you

How many Christians have you met who have  ever been 'under the law'?  Me, not one.  

Since the GIFT comes first, IT should never cross the mind of a Christian 'to work' for it,

and only WOULD if someone, somewhere, took some of Gods teachings and mashed them together and came up with something resembling Gods Truth thereby  creating those thoughts.  IF that were to happen,  ONE result might be that WORKS would somehow receive a bad name.  SINCE our WORKS are all that follow us, WORKS for God are AWESOME and for us,  and as many as you can is the goal 

What does WORKING for or to keep salvation 'look/think/feel' like?  How does one know if one is doing that?  Are there some works that fall under that category and others that don't?  How do we know if that is what someone is doing or not? 
 

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. 
So you CAN NOT BE SAVED  (HAVE FAITH) BEFORE YOU HAVE HEARD ALL THE WORDS OF GOD. 
SEE how I did that?  Took a truth FOUND in Gods Word and CHANGED IT by putting my own spin on it. 

Gods word is written IN the way it is to be taught.  Precept on precept verse by verse....not by slogans made up by man.  
.  

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

What if all the 'IF's written were on mans side and not Gods?  What would that mean?  

The sower sowed a bunch of seeds. Lots sprung up and died.  Never saved?  But they sprung up.  At what point are we really saved then?  I say it is at arrival, not the starting line.  But that's just me.


 

2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


but if we all avoid any shortcuts, we will never have any conflict.  


 

[Marathoner]

58 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Here is my problem, (MY), BECAUSE this comes up so often (when imho, it never should) and it seems to make me a little nuts, so please take that into consideration as I have re written this a number of times trying to make it nice to you

How many Christians have you met who have  ever been 'under the law'?  Me, not one.  

Since the GIFT comes first, IT should never cross the mind of a Christian 'to work' for it,

and only WOULD if someone, somewhere, took some of Gods teachings and mashed them together and came up with something resembling Gods Truth thereby  creating those thoughts.  IF that were to happen,  ONE result might be that WORKS would somehow receive a bad name.  SINCE our WORKS are all that follow us, WORKS for God are AWESOME and for us,  and as many as you can is the goal 

What does WORKING for or to keep salvation 'look/think/feel' like?  How does one know if one is doing that?  Are there some works that fall under that category and others that don't?  How do we know if that is what someone is doing or not? 
 

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. 
So you CAN NOT BE SAVED  (HAVE FAITH) BEFORE YOU HAVE HEARD ALL THE WORDS OF GOD. 
SEE how I did that?  Took a truth FOUND in Gods Word and CHANGED IT by putting my own spin on it. 

Gods word is written IN the way it is to be taught.  Precept on precept verse by verse....not by slogans made up by man.  
.  

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

What if all the 'IF's written were on mans side and not Gods?  What would that mean?  

The sower sowed a bunch of seeds. Lots sprung up and died.  Never saved?  But they sprung up.  At what point are we really saved then?  I say it is at arrival, not the starting line.  But that's just me.


 

2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


but if we all avoid any shortcuts, we will never have any conflict.  


 

Context is, as some say, everything. So, how do we abide in Christ? Is it by our works so we might boast? The apostle Paul elaborated on this extensively so I won't copy and paste passages of scripture because I'm certain you know them well. 

We abide in Christ because we have been relocated into Him. We are hidden in Christ (Colossians 3:3). This is an act of God which is the work of His Son. No one may come to the Father apart from the Son; no one can come to His Son unless the Father draws them. Nowhere are our works mentioned but you use the Lord's words from John 15:16 which apply to those who aren't in Him, and apply them to those who are already in Him. 

You mention rewards (2 John 1:8) and this, sister, is precisely what applies to us who are in Christ Jesus. Yes, the reward we shall receive from the Lord in His judgment seat relates to our walk with Him. There will be some who are scarcely saved, as if by fire (reference the scripture where that appears).

I should point out that the apostle John wrote his letters specifically to address ravening wolves among the flock, deceivers whom we know as the Gnostics, who denied that Jesus Christ came in this flesh. These are antichrists as we find expressed in 1 John 1:22.  

Gnostics infiltrated the Lord's sheep seeking to lead many astray with their heretical (and utterly bizarre) doctrines during John's day. The apostle exhorts the flock to pay heed so they will know when such a deceiver is in their midst; casting them out is the only fitting response. 

Proof-texting in order to outline an argument never makes the argument. Proof-texting is a manner by which verses are taken out of context, my friend. Reading the scriptures in their context is how we learn about the harmony of the scriptures. What did the Lord say? He will never lose a single one our Father gives to Him, and He will raise them up on the last day. (John 6:39). Here's the greater context of where that verse is found:

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty. But I said to you that you have indeed seen Me, and yet you do not believe. Everything that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:35-40 NASB)

As you can see the Lord is addressing those who were not given to Him, and those whom our Father gives to Him. The Lord promises not to lose a single one our Father gives to Him. It's important to discern the difference which is why, as some say, context is everything.  

    

Edited March 25, 2021 by Marathoner
typos and clarity