Martyred Tribulation Saints

[Dennis1209]

We cannot know the day or hour of the Lord's return [Harpazo - Rapture]. In Matthew 24:, Jesus gives us the signs and events to watch for pertaining to His second coming. It has nothing to do with the Rapture of His bride. From further study, I'm coming to the conclusion, not knowing the day nor the hour also applies to His second coming, closing out the Great Tribulation. 

Fewer scholars will argue that Revelation is not written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted. John gives us great detail in Revelation about the events and timing. John also gives us timing to the very day, twice, of 1,260 days [3.5 years with the Hebrew calendar of 360 day years].

1,260 + 1,260 = 2,520 divided by 360 = 7 years to the day. 

Now the question? Revelation 6:10 (KJV) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

How come these Tribulation Saints do not know where they are time wise in the Tribulation, and how much time is left until their blood is avenged? The whole Tribulation is judgment from God, starting with Jesus opening the scroll and sending the seven seal judgments and onward. 

Many believe this is when the Rapture occurs, the sixth seal at Revelation 6:10-11.

[R. Hartono]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

We cannot know the day or hour of the Lord's return [Harpazo - Rapture]. In Matthew 24:, Jesus gives us the signs and events to watch for pertaining to His second coming. It has nothing to do with the Rapture of His bride. From further study, I'm coming to the conclusion, not knowing the day nor the hour also applies to His second coming, closing out the Great Tribulation. 

Fewer scholars will argue that Revelation is not written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted. John gives us great detail in Revelation about the events and timing. John also gives us timing to the very day, twice, of 1,260 days [3.5 years with the Hebrew calendar of 360 day years].

1,260 + 1,260 = 2,520 divided by 360 = 7 years to the day. 

Now the question? Revelation 6:10 (KJV) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

How come these Tribulation Saints do not know where they are time wise in the Tribulation, and how much time is left until their blood is avenged? The whole Tribulation is judgment from God, starting with Jesus opening the scroll and sending the seven seal judgments and onward. 

Many believe this is when the Rapture occurs, the sixth seal at Revelation 6:10-11.

Jesus second coming to Armageddon battle  will be known as antichrist will gather army to battle Him in Rev 19, but the rapture of wise virgins is unknown as they will sleep when the bridegroom comes.

Edited May 27, 2021 by R. Hartono

[missmuffet]

20 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

We cannot know the day or hour of the Lord's return [Harpazo - Rapture]. In Matthew 24:, Jesus gives us the signs and events to watch for pertaining to His second coming. It has nothing to do with the Rapture of His bride. From further study, I'm coming to the conclusion, not knowing the day nor the hour also applies to His second coming, closing out the Great Tribulation. 

Fewer scholars will argue that Revelation is not written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted. John gives us great detail in Revelation about the events and timing. John also gives us timing to the very day, twice, of 1,260 days [3.5 years with the Hebrew calendar of 360 day years].

1,260 + 1,260 = 2,520 divided by 360 = 7 years to the day. 

Now the question? Revelation 6:10 (KJV) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

How come these Tribulation Saints do not know where they are time wise in the Tribulation, and how much time is left until their blood is avenged? The whole Tribulation is judgment from God, starting with Jesus opening the scroll and sending the seven seal judgments and onward. 

Many believe this is when the Rapture occurs, the sixth seal at Revelation 6:10-11.

The rapture and the second coming are two very different and distinctive events. There will be no signs of the rapture but if you know the book of Revelation there will be signs that Jesus is coming back to earth in the second coming.

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.
 

https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

Edited May 27, 2021 by missmuffet

[Diaste]

On 5/27/2021 at 11:36 AM, missmuffet said:

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

And they happen in consecutive order and very near in time to one another.  

The signs occur, Jesus appears, the earth mourns, the elect are gathered and wrath begins; from all the evidence, this happens on the same day within the same hour. 

It's a straight line from the heavens, to the clouds, to the earth.

[Diaste]

On 5/26/2021 at 2:44 PM, Dennis1209 said:

We cannot know the day or hour of the Lord's return [Harpazo - Rapture]. In Matthew 24:, Jesus gives us the signs and events to watch for pertaining to His second coming. It has nothing to do with the Rapture of His bride. From further study, I'm coming to the conclusion, not knowing the day nor the hour also applies to His second coming, closing out the Great Tribulation. 

So then why tell us to watch? if we can't watch for the rapture, as it's imminent, what are we watching for? If the rapture is pretrib we won't be here and the signs are meaningless to us and we have no reason to watch as in the case of pretrib there is nothing to watch for.

If those signs to watch for are for trib saints then has judgment even begun? If there are trib saints in the judgement then isn't God pouring wrath and judgment out on His own people? If a great group is raptured before judgment to escape judgment, why are those same types in judgment? 

 

 

On 5/26/2021 at 2:44 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Fewer scholars will argue that Revelation is not written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted. John gives us great detail in Revelation about the events and timing. John also gives us timing to the very day, twice, of 1,260 days [3.5 years with the Hebrew calendar of 360 day years].

1,260 + 1,260 = 2,520 divided by 360 = 7 years to the day. 

This misses the  idea of "f those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." Which days are cut short? The days of GT. GT does not run the whole length of the last week.

On 5/26/2021 at 2:44 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Now the question? Revelation 6:10 (KJV) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

How come these Tribulation Saints do not know where they are time wise in the Tribulation, and how much time is left until their blood is avenged? The whole Tribulation is judgment from God, starting with Jesus opening the scroll and sending the seven seal judgments and onward. 

Then it seems this has to be reconciled. How can they not know, you ask? Because the judgment of the earth has not begun. These martyred saints know this. Why else would they be asking? If they knew when they would not ask, would they?  These saints know exactly where they are in the timeline and they also know the day and the hour for the beginning of the judgment in vengeance is that very unknown day of which Jesus spoke. 

And, if these are souls under the altar then the rapture could not have taken place since we know when the rapture occurs we have new bodies per 1 Cor 15; these souls under the altar do not have bodies so the rapture has not yet occurred.

That would mean that the whole time period misnamed 'tribulation' is unequivocally not judgment from God. The evidence is clear, "under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld." are asking "“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?" Clearly they know judgment has not begun. And they are but souls with no physical form, which means they are not yet in the 1 Cor 15 promise of a new incorruptible bodies.

 

On 5/26/2021 at 2:44 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Many believe this is when the Rapture occurs, the sixth seal at Revelation 6:10-11.

I think it's correct based on the souls under the altar and the pleading for vengeance and the time of that vengeance. The rapture has not occurred by the 5th seal and is coming only after the 5th seal.

[Selah7]

@Dennis1209

Interesting... but I think that what you are calling the Rapture is actually the First Resurrection which occurs at the 7th trump when Jesus Christ returns on the Lord’s Day, at which point the Millennium begins. 

[Dennis1209]

On 5/29/2021 at 6:01 AM, Selah7 said:

@Dennis1209

Interesting... but I think that what you are calling the Rapture is actually the First Resurrection which occurs at the 7th trump when Jesus Christ returns on the Lord’s Day, at which point the Millennium begins. 

We all have our own hermeneutic understandings and thoughts, and that's a secondary issue that should not divide us. Regardless of 'when' the Lord comes for His church, He is coming, and I believe it will not be long. There is no signs that will precede the Rapture, even the Apostle Paul thought it possible it could happen in his lifetime, by the inclusion of the pronoun, "we".

If I have my facts straight, last poll I seen polling Christians, 80% do not believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture, so I'm in the minority. Now that I've proclaimed all of a sudden today that I am in the minority, I am part of the Minority Movement Matters (M & M's). I am a special class of the minority, I would like 'special protection' in this politically correct environment please 

[Dennis1209]

On 5/29/2021 at 5:34 AM, Diaste said:

So then why tell us to watch? if we can't watch for the rapture, as it's imminent, what are we watching for? If the rapture is pretrib we won't be here and the signs are meaningless to us and we have no reason to watch as in the case of pretrib there is nothing to watch for.

If those signs to watch for are for trib saints then has judgment even begun? If there are trib saints in the judgement then isn't God pouring wrath and judgment out on His own people? If a great group is raptured before judgment to escape judgment, why are those same types in judgment? 

 

 

This misses the  idea of "f those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." Which days are cut short? The days of GT. GT does not run the whole length of the last week.

Then it seems this has to be reconciled. How can they not know, you ask? Because the judgment of the earth has not begun. These martyred saints know this. Why else would they be asking? If they knew when they would not ask, would they?  These saints know exactly where they are in the timeline and they also know the day and the hour for the beginning of the judgment in vengeance is that very unknown day of which Jesus spoke. 

And, if these are souls under the altar then the rapture could not have taken place since we know when the rapture occurs we have new bodies per 1 Cor 15; these souls under the altar do not have bodies so the rapture has not yet occurred.

That would mean that the whole time period misnamed 'tribulation' is unequivocally not judgment from God. The evidence is clear, "under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld." are asking "“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?" Clearly they know judgment has not begun. And they are but souls with no physical form, which means they are not yet in the 1 Cor 15 promise of a new incorruptible bodies.

 

I think it's correct based on the souls under the altar and the pleading for vengeance and the time of that vengeance. The rapture has not occurred by the 5th seal and is coming only after the 5th seal.

Based on our theology, upbringing, denomination, etc., our hermeneutics vary widely. With my pre-Tribulation Rapture view, my thoughts and timing will be different than the 80% of Christians that hold to different views of the timing. 

I'm personally not sure at what point in time these martyr's were murdered? That is why I brought it up.

Revelation 6:9 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Could this be a special class of martyr's. These martyrs are already in Heaven awaiting their resurrected glorified bodies, but given white robes to wear. In my pre-Tribulation Rapture view, at Revelation 4:1, this is symbolic of the Rapture of the church, when John is called up, represented by the 24 Elders. With any other view, our thoughts and timing will differ widely. 

Some thoughts I had: Could these be martyr's murdered before the official start of the Tribulation; in the time period between the Rapture and the confirming of the covenant with Israel and the many for seven years? Granted, my thoughts will not fit with any other view than a pre-Tribulation Rapture. 

Isaiah 28:15 (KJV) Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

To be brief: Apparently there is a 'scourge' heading toward Israel, and they sign this covenant with the Antichrist for protection and to survive? Israel knows they are doing the wrong thing and the consequences. 

Anyway, my thought was the Old Testament Saints will not be resurrected with the bride of Christ. They will be immediately resurrected at the end of the Tribulation [again my hermeneutics]. I was thinking these martyr's could be prior to the Tribulation [waiting on those slain during the Tribulation], or possibly the Old Testament saints who have been waiting so long?

[Ray12614]

27 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

We all have our own hermeneutic understandings and thoughts, and that's a secondary issue that should not divide us. 

  AMEN!!!!

If I have my facts straight, last poll I seen polling Christians, 80% do not believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture, so I'm in the minority. Now that I've proclaimed all of a sudden today that I am in the minority, I am part of the Minority Movement Matters (M & M's). I am a special class of the minority, I would like 'special protection' in this politically correct environment please

We will build you an safe place somewhere on this site  . . . .  

Here is what I believe about the parable of the 10 virgins:

1. All of them were virgins. (God's people)

2. All of them knew what their jobs were to meet the bride groom. (living our lives in service to God)

3. All of them slumbered. (sound like today??)

4. When the bride groom came, only 5 were prepared to meet him (with enough oil to perform their tasks.)

Lets keep ourselves prepared to meet Jesus our King . . . .  .

Ray . . . . 

[TheBlade]

Hi all. I saw this video about a man that lol .. yeah you can guess had a rapture dream. Please REMEMBER THIS I am NOT saying its true   Its something he said Jesus said in the dream which... is what for me Jesus is always like. Well as they were talking about rapture Jesus said not all will go some will choose to stay those are my Champions my pillars. Talked about 10 virgins blah blah blah.

See in my own life with ever negative thing or some person I saw not in a good way. Every time He always talked about the GOOD never the bad. I always believed if Jesus comes pre there would be some that would not go. I never looked at that as good thing always bad.. as in not ready didn't believe. Yet its just like Him wants all to go but some will stay not being ready.. Iv'e heard some say they do not want to go because of the lost another thing that man SAID they talked about. But its so like Him to call them HIs champions His pillars. 

No right or wrong here..its ONLY about seeing things differently they I always pictured. I will say this in my searching PRE MID POST that one that gets made fun of called names as in from Satan is pre. Over and over. Granted all 3 are not written. There is no PRE MID POST verse. Just verses people put together to then get this picture of what they personally believe. Others I will say just LOVE to talk about debate it because they love talking about JESUS coming be it pre mid post.. that part is AWESOME! I love reading seeing through others eyes not just my own. I hope I said all this right lol