Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Guest Vezella22]

Thanks for replying, everyone. It appears we have a decent cross-section of people here and a lot of well thought-out discussion

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[Ephesians__6_24]

Next, he put sandals on his feet. These represent protection and provision. Deut. 33:24,25: And of Asher he said: "Asher is most blessed of sons; Let him be favored by his brothers, and let him dip his foot in oil. Your sandals shall be iron and bronze; As your days, so shall your strength be." Asher was Leah's maid's son by Jacob in Genesis. Leah was Jacob's first wife, but he really wanted to marry Rachel, just as the Gentiles (the church) are Christ's bride even though He chose the jews first.

More on Jacob...

Jacob And Christ

Genesis 32

²⁴And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

²⁵And when [the man, the angel] saw that he prevailed not against [Jacob], he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

[Hosea 12:4 indicates that this "man" was an "angel".]

Genesis 32 continued

²⁶And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

²⁷And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

²⁸And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Now... The Angel did not prevail against Jacob... is this possible?

Ecclesiastes 6:10

That which hath been is named already, and it is known that it is man: neither may he [The Man?] contend with him that is mightier than he.

Angels are "...greater in power and might..." (2 Peter 2:11)

Could Jacob be a figure of Christ?

Christ:

Hebrews 1:4

Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Yet... Christ was "made a little lower than the angels" Hebrews 2:9

[1 Timothy 3:16 - "...great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."]

Why did the Angel name Jacob "Israel" ? --- "for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed." Genesis 32:28

Christ: "...a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."

Christ is the "mediator between God and men" (1 Timothy 2:5)

- Christ prevailed:

Colossians 2:15 "having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

(Matthew 27:62-65; 28:6, 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 - Christ "spoiled principalities and powers... He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.")

Genesis 32 continued

²⁹And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

³⁰And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

³¹And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh.

³²Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank.

More on Jacob and Christ (specifically the wife of Jacob and the wife of Christ the Church...)

Hosea 12

¹²And Jacob fled into the country of Syria, and Israel served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep.

[Hebrews 13:20 - Jesus is "...that great shepherd of the sheep"]

- Jacob fled from Esau into "the country of Syria" ... and served for a wife... (which is where your quote fits in)

- Jacob fleeing from Esau to get the Jews first (Leah) but then Christ (Rachel)...

- Would Jacob fleeing from Esau be a figure of Christ and men? (John 1:1-3; 10-13)

- How that

"the world was made by [Christ], and the world knew him not" (John 1:10)

Edited February 12, 2012 by Ephesians__6_24

[A Rogue Spook]

There are many analytical studies I have done to conclude a pre-trib resurrection and rapture as part of my belief system. But here is one I believe everyone can study to see if they get the same conclusion without necessarily writing a book here on the subject. Here is your topic of study to come to your conclusion.

Study what the book of Revelations says about the 24 elders. You will have to read through Revelation because they are mentioned in several chapters. I like to use the JKV of the Bible gateway online, because it allows me to copy and paste the verses to a word document for comparison.

Here is what you need to pay attention to in this study:

1. How does Revelation identify who these elders are, can you conclude they are men, and what verse reveals this?

2. Does Revelation reveal if these elders have been rewarded in anyway?

3. Do the elders demonstrate the ability to do physical activities and what are those activities?

4. Once you have an answer to these questions, then answer for yourself these questions. When does John first mention the elders and at what capacity? What does CHRIST do that initiates the beginning of the tribulation? Where are the elders when this event happens?

My conclusions are from the question above:

1. The elders themselves reveal they are redeemed men.

2. John sees them with crowns on their heads.

3. The elders on several occasions bow down and cast their crowns before the throne. They also sing and play instruments, they also wear clothes.

4. Revelation 4 verse 4.

Revelation 6 verse 1.

My belief is the elders are resurrected redeemed men. They have their new physical bodies, able to wear clothing and do physical task, such and sing, wear crowns, bow down and cast their crowns before the throne. They have been rewarded, as they already have their crowns. All this can be verified with the study of scripture. The elders are present in the throne room of heaven before CHRIST opens the first seal beginning the tribulation period. So, with this I believe Revelation indicates the resurrection and rapture as described in Thessalonians and Corinthians happens somewhere between the end of Revelation chapter 3 and the beginning of the 6th chapter when CHRIST opens the 1st seal initiating the tribulation period.

[Guest]

My belief is the elders are resurrected redeemed men. They have their new physical bodies, able to wear clothing and do physical task, such and sing, wear crowns, bow down and cast their crowns before the throne. They have been rewarded, as they already have their crowns. All this can be verified with the study of scripture. The elders are present in the throne room of heaven before CHRIST opens the first seal beginning the tribulation period. So, with this I believe Revelation indicates the resurrection and rapture as described in Thessalonians and Corinthians happens somewhere between the end of Revelation chapter 3 and the beginning of the 6th chapter when CHRIST opens the 1st seal initiating the tribulation period.

The 24 elders, in bible version based on the majority of older texts, has the 24 elders singing:

"Worthy art Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. "And Thou hast made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

From that, it appears that the 24 elders are not including themselves in the group redeemed by Jesus. If you insist that the more recent texts underlying the KJV has it correct that it should "and Thou hast made us", then why are the 4 living creatures (who are obviously not men) singing about being reedemed by the blood?

Either way you look at it, there is plenty of doubt about the elders being men, for this to rise to the levled of a proof text, it is not clear that they are, and some aspects indicate against the idea.

[Guest]

Nice try DE, But all of these old geezers are dead. Daniel prophesied that knowledge would be increased at the time of the end, not several centuries before the end, when men were still traveling by horseback. And it appears that most of these individuals are preterits (meaning they were clueless). :suspect:

I hope you don't expect anyone to read those posts all the way thru. And I wonder if it's even possible to do, without nodding off somewhere in the middle of each post. :sleep:

:24:

Wanna Bet?

[jasoncran]

the same preterists such adam clarke who were men of charachter compared to these:

finis dake(whore monger and racist)

hal lindsey(false prophet)and ilk..

so if god said he went to egypt in a cloud what then?

lets see

isiah 19:1

http://studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=isa&chapter=019

and the verse itself

Isaiah 19

1The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

2And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.

3And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.

4And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts.

5And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.

6And they shall turn the rivers far away; and the brooks of defence shall be emptied and dried up: the reeds and flags shall wither.

7The paper reeds by the brooks, by the mouth of the brooks, and every thing sown by the brooks, shall wither, be driven away, and be no more.

8The fishers also shall mourn, and all they that cast angle into the brooks shall lament, and they that spread nets upon the waters shall languish.

9Moreover they that work in fine flax, and they that weave networks, shall be confounded.

10And they shall be broken in the purposes thereof, all that make sluices and ponds for fish.

11Surely the princes of Zoan are fools, the counsel of the wise counsellors of Pharaoh is become brutish: how say ye unto Pharaoh, I am the son of the wise, the son of ancient kings?

12Where are they? where are thy wise men? and let them tell thee now, and let them know what the LORD of hosts hath purposed upon Egypt.

13The princes of Zoan are become fools, the princes of Noph are deceived; they have also seduced Egypt, even they that are the stay of the tribes thereof.

14The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit.

15Neither shall there be any work for Egypt, which the head or tail, branch or rush, may do.

16In that day shall Egypt be like unto women: and it shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which he shaketh over it.

17And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts, which he hath determined against it.

18In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

19In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.

20And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

21And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it.

22And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.

23In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

25Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance

that is all fulfilled per mr.clarke and reading that what i do know about that era(the septugaint was put together in alexendria).it makes sense. so coming in a cloud is still literally how its taken. if he came then it would be noticed

[enoob57]

Cause were about to find out it is True........ ready or not Here He Comes............

[jasoncran]

im close to a preterist, what if this isreal thing(1948) is wrong and jesus doesnt come by say 2048? what then?

much of that generation is dying quickly.

[Larry 2]

In Revelation Chapters Two and Three Jesus addresses the church; not unbelievers.

Revelation 2:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis . .

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

There is consequence to not holding fast the word, and it is not hell. The church in Philadelphia is told in Revelation 3:10, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, because the patienly keep the word. Our reward with Christ, and our time of being caught up together with Him is determined by it. Revelation 3:11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos . .

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone (Not a crown), and in the stone a new name written.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

All this combined we see the results of those with crowns in Revelation 4:4 & Revelation 4:6 with Christ when He receives His own throne in Revelation 4:2, as opposed to them of the great multitude that come out of great tribulation.

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

[jasoncran]

im close to a preterist, what if this isreal thing(1948) is wrong and jesus doesnt come by say 2048? what then?

much of that generation is dying quickly.

You can't be a preterist and believe all the prophecies occurred by A.D.70 because Jesus did not come back then.

not all preterists think that the judgement of man occured fully in ad 70.

lists of men who did think closely as i do

calvin, luther, spurgeon, and also isaac newton.

so when jesus said to annanias ye shall se me coming the clouds he was kidding?

666 per the gemetria is specefic in its use. its points to a name. thats what the hebrew gemetria does its good at that.