Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[KJVOnly]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Tis true; if one equates the entire 70th week with the wrath of God and the Lamb. This position is not justified based on Matt 24, but other scripture as well.

Matt 24:4-8 are are spoken of by Jesus;  "All these are the beginning of birth pains."

Matt 24:15 is the A of D:  ‘the abomination of desolation,’described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),

After that, Matt 24:21 says "For at that time there will be great tribulation"

Up to the period immediately after the A of D It's the beginning of sorrows, beginning of birth pangs, birth pangs, etc., whatever one wants to call them, but the period before the A of D is never called the "tribulation', 'tribulation period' or any other such. Well, by religious scholars it might be but they are generally unreliable especially in the consensus. Scripture is king and supersedes any word of mankind. Mankind is of the flesh and scripture is the Living Word of God. 

Then Jesus speaks about the great tribulation in Matt 24:19-22 and salient to the teaching is verse 22: "If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved." This speaks directly to "great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." If this language in 19-22 sets apart this period following the A of D as a time that never happened before, never will again, and is responsible for the deaths of nearly all flesh that is to be saved, why doesn't this extend to Matt 24:4-8? Because the great tribulation only follows the A of D. Then it's cut short. Cut short from what? What time period is mentioned that's longer than the days of great tribulation? There isn't one in Matt 24. Popular belief as far back as I can remember is it's the last 7 years, the 70th week of Daniel. So even here we see the 'tribulation period' is not 7 years, it's short of that. Great tribulation, tribulation, is not mentioned in Matt 24:4-20 and is only mentioned as following the A of D which we know is the mid point of the week. [It could really be any time as 'midst' or 'middle' is not a precise moment. I tend to think exact midpoint as other prophecy seems to point to this.]

So then the only period of time that could be associated with tribulation, as spoken by the lips of the Savior, is a time after the midpoint and short of the end of the week.

Matt 24:29 tells us, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days:" which are only after the A of D and are cut short of the end of the week, Jesus return after the signs of Matt 24:29-30, "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven," 

It's only after this that, "all the tribes of the earth will mourn". Why here and not before? They are understanding something they did not prior to this. In fact up to this point Jesus is pointing out mankind has run amok. Now they mourn. Why now and not before? If mankind has free reign to do as they please we see all the terrible aspects: wars, terrestrial calamity that can all be brought about by the intervention of mankind, false christs, man making himself god and the extermination of all flesh that is destined to be saved. They clearly are not said to be mourning. A distinction is made about the mourning after the signs of the coming of the Son of man. They now mourn because a fundamental change is about to occur.

Rev 6 is a parallel event to Matt 24:29-30 described almost exactly the same:

Matt 24:29,"‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

Rev 6:12-14, "and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth...and every mountain and island was moved from its place."

And the people fear, mourn for themselves I suppose: "For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”" So wrath doesn't even begin until after Matt 24:29-30

It's a stretch to assume mankind is under the wrath of God during the entire 70th week. Not only because the scriptures dispute this and the wrath of God as depicted in the vials is debilitating to all flesh, brings death and destruction is presaged by an earthquake that brings down all the cities on earth, and is a time where day and night have ceased and the glory of Jesus is the only illumination all of  which is diametrically opposed to Matt 24:4-28, but mainly because there cannot be any of the elect on earth during the wrath of God. Which would mean the great company of believers in Revelation that are said to have come out from within the great tribulation poses an insurmountable contradiction.

We see then that the whole of the 70th week cannot be wrath. The 70th week cannot be 'tribulation' or the 'tribulation period'. The 'great tribulation' cannot be wrath. This dooms the position of pretrib claiming that the whole of the last week is wrath and that since we are not appointed to wrath believers are not here during the 70th week.

 

Like I said.  no church person, even being full of the Holy Ghost will see the wrath of God on them. The tribulation is God's day of wrath. The bride will be removed before Rev 5.

[JoeCanada]

On 1/3/2020 at 9:30 AM, KJVOnly said:

I have taught and believed pre trib rapture for decades. Basically, it is inconceivable to expect the bride of Christ to face the open seals then the vials of wrath. 

Lot can be said about it, but the fact is. God will remove His church prior to that dreaded time 

Hi KJV,

Tragically, 9 Christians were recently murdered in Kenya for refusing to recite Islamic creed.

A simple question for pretribbers: how is this any different than when the Antichrist will murder Christians when they refuse to deny their faith?

[KJVOnly]

35 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi KJV,

Tragically, 9 Christians were recently murdered in Kenya for refusing to recite Islamic creed.

A simple question for pretribbers: how is this any different than when the Antichrist will murder Christians when they refuse to deny their faith?

Simple. The wrath of man is not equal to the wrath of God.

No power can equal the wrath poured out on mankind beginning in Rev 6. 

 

Also, Spirit filled born again saints will not face the Antichrist. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by KJVOnly

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, KJVOnly said:

Simple. The wrath of man is not equal to the wrath of God.

No power can equal the wrath poured out on mankind beginning in Rev 6. 

 

Also, Spirit filled born again saints will not face the Antichrist. 

KJV,

In Rev 12:2, we see:

King James Version
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

It is Satan's wrath that mankind faces in the seal judgments. God's wrath does not begin until the trumpet judgments and continues on thru the bowl judgments.

The wrath of man is not equal to the wrath of God.......... I agree. And Satan's wrath does not equal God's wrath. 

[KJVOnly]

33 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

KJV,

In Rev 12:2, we see:

King James Version
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

It is Satan's wrath that mankind faces in the seal judgments. God's wrath does not begin until the trumpet judgments and continues on thru the bowl judgments.

The wrath of man is not equal to the wrath of God.......... I agree. And Satan's wrath does not equal God's wrath. 

God will not allow Satan to pummel his church to add to their woes. 

Rev 4:1 marks the period of the Church removal. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by KJVOnly

[JoeCanada]

4 hours ago, KJVOnly said:

God will not allow Satan to pummel his church to add to their woes. 

Rev 4:1 marks the period of the Church removal. 

KJV,

Satan has been pummeling God's church for 2,000 years..... beheading, burning alive, boiling in oil, butchering, you name it, he's done it.

Rev 4:1......ahhhh yes, the famous Jack Van Impe call to "come up here" !

John describes everything that he saw. The throne, the One sitting on the throne, the 24 thrones, the 24 elders, the 4 living creatures....all in great detail. 

But....the one group that he doesn't see nor describe are the 100's of millions, maybe billions of the resurrected and raptured saints. I guess they were hiding from John, and they come out of hiding after the sixth seal is broken. 

And please......don't use that line that "the church isn't mentioned after Rev 3:22. There are at least 9 different references to the church in Rev 4 - 19:

1. Every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 5:9c
2. A kingdom and priest, 5:10
3. Fifth seal martyrs, 6:9
4. A multitude, 7:9; 19:5-6
5. Bond-servants, 11:18; 19:2, 5
6. Our brethren, 12:10
7. The rest of her children, 12:17
8. Saints, 13:7, 10; 14:12; 18:20, 24
9. Wife, 19:7

[KJVOnly]

1 minute ago, JoeCanada said:

KJV,

Satan has been pummeling God's church for 2,000 years..... beheading, burning alive, boiling in oil, butchering, you name it, he's done it.

Rev 4:1......ahhhh yes, the famous Jack Van Impe call to "come up here" !

John describes everything that he saw. The throne, the One sitting on the throne, the 24 thrones, the 24 elders, the 4 living creatures....all in great detail. 

But....the one group that he doesn't see nor describe are the 100's of millions, maybe billions of the resurrected and raptured saints. I guess they were hiding from John, and they come out of hiding after the sixth seal is broken. 

And please......don't use that line that "the church isn't mentioned after Rev 3:22. There are at least 9 different references to the church in Rev 4 - 19:

1. Every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 5:9c
2. A kingdom and priest, 5:10
3. Fifth seal martyrs, 6:9
4. A multitude, 7:9; 19:5-6
5. Bond-servants, 11:18; 19:2, 5
6. Our brethren, 12:10
7. The rest of her children, 12:17
8. Saints, 13:7, 10; 14:12; 18:20, 24
9. Wife, 19:7

I had a chat with a post tribber that said God will put an invisible force field around believers to keep them from the wrath He pours out. 

Do you agree with him?

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, KJVOnly said:

I had a chat with a post tribber that said God will put an invisible force field around believers to keep them from the wrath He pours out. 

Do you agree with him?

KJV,

I believe that the saints,the church, the true believers, the called out ones, the faithful, those saved by His blood......they will be raptured and caught up together with the resurrected saints from all ages, at the end of the great tribulation, before God pours out His wrath against all unbelievers. God's wrath is the trumpet and bowl judgments. Jesus lays all this out in Matthew 24. The apostles asked for a sign of His return and of the end of the age, and the only signs He gave were the 6 seals. He didn't give any trumpet or bowl signs. 

Either Jesus is deceiving us......or our preconceived notions blind us from seeing the truth. 

Tribulation is not wrath. God alone will be exalted in the Day of His Wrath. Which, by the way, starts on a DAY but lasts a YEAR. ( Isa 34:8, 61:2, 63:4) The same length of time Noah and crew were in the Ark.

Tribulation will be the saints finest hour. They will witness to the world and testify about Jesus. 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, KJVOnly said:

Like I said.  no church person, even being full of the Holy Ghost will see the wrath of God on them. The tribulation is God's day of wrath. The bride will be removed before Rev 5.

The 'tribulation' is not the wrath of God. I didn't say that and even delineated the time periods within the 70th week.  Great tribulation will be cut short by the return of Jesus to save flesh. The only flesh to be saved is that worthy of salvation, the elect of Christ, which means the elect of Christ are found in great tribulation; which cannot then be the wrath of God as 'we are not appointed to wrath'.

The same for the great company around the throne which we are told have 'come out from within great tribulation'. It's obvious they were in the 'tribulation' and the only ones so pictured as being in heaven around the throne on the sea of glass. So...where then does the vast group of  'church person' appear that were taken before? Any evidence that the scripture says an enormous group is taken before the 'tribulation'? No. There is no evidence for this.

It's a great omission that pretrib refuses to acknowledge the 100,000 believers that perish every year at the hand of mankind for their belief in Jesus and their testimony of His Lordship.

Where is their 'rapture'?

They have not been taken before Rev 5. Another 11 will die for Jesus today. Why don't they get a rapture?

 

[OldCoot]

Well, it really all comes down to a problem of ecclesiology as opposed to eschatology.  A clear understanding of what and who the church as established in Acts 2 and its destiny.  Once one gets a clear handle on that, usually the eschatology is easy.

And one thing that does seem clear is that the 24 Elders are at the throne room area before the scroll is handed to Yeshua and the first seal broke open.  In Revelation 5, They call themselves Kings and Priests redeemed of all the nations.  Peter is quite clear that we are a royal priesthood.... royalty is kingship (1 Peter 2:9).   And the only division of 24 was in 1 Chronicles 24, where David divided the priesthood into 24 divisions.    And since prophecy is as much pattern as it is prediction, and that the 404 verses of Revelation have over 500 references to the OT alone, it is reasonable to assert that the 24 Elders are the redeemed of the church that have been removed and are present at the time the scroll is handed to Yeshua.

Even with that, Isaiah 26 puts the context of its passage as talking about the time of the birth pains (Isaiah 26:17) which is a reference to Jeremiah 30:6-7 which is the period of Jacob's Trouble which most agree is the tribulation period, as did Yeshua in Matthew 24:21.  And Isaiah 26:19-21 says that the righteous dead are resurrected and along with the living righteous are hidden away in their chambers (see John 14) before the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth.   Another key tie in is Isaiah 26:2 with Revelation 4:1 where a gate / door is open so that the righteous nation may enter.  Again Peter calls us a holy / righteous nation in 1 Peter 2:9.

Anyway, for any matter to be established, there has to be the testimony of at least 2 witnesses according to the Torah.   And the Bereans in Acts 17 showed us how that is applied.  They took what Paul taught them (which became a major portion of the NT) and searched the scripture (OT) to see if what Paul taught them was true.  They were commended for doing so.  Thus, for any matter to be established, it must have supporting testimony from OT and NT.  Not the NT alone.   And the above paragraphs show the OT/NT connection.

Edited January 9, 2020 by OldCoot