Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Uriah]

Have you ever quoted Strongs?

[OldCoot]

1 minute ago, Uriah said:

The Holy Spirit is involved in everything the Father and son do.

But not revealing everything that is reserved to the Father or the Son.  The Father knows things that He has not given to the Son or the Holy Spirit.  That is direct per Matthew 24.....

Matthew 24:35-36 (NKJV ) Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

Not even Yeshua knows when the day will be that heaven and earth will pass away.  Only that it will happen.  And the HS doesn't know it either.

[OldCoot]

17 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Oh my, you aren't following the post. I quoted nobody for my answer. So if we cannot use dictionaries now, what is the use?

Sure, you can use a dictionary, but it was put together by a man.  And with all things, it must be compared with other scholarly analysis from others.  Even a doctrinal position cannot be established only in one passage of scripture alone.  Only exception is teaching directly from Yeshua, and even then, He quotes many time from the Tanakh (OT).  The Torah requires that two witnesses are required to establish a matter.  The Bereans in Acts 17 showed us how this Torah requirement is applied..... all doctrine has to be supported in both OT and NT ..... two witnesses.   In that case, Paul's teachings ended up being a core part of the NT.  They searched the scripture daily to show if what Paul taught them was true.   The only scripture they had was the Tanakh (OT).   We have the teaching in the NT and the OT to support it.  The two witnesses.

And the assertion I have posted about the departure occurring before the day of the Lord begins and the man of sin is revealed in 2 Thessalonians 2 is supported by Isaiah 26 in conjunction with Daniel 8.    

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

34 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Have you ever quoted Strongs?

Rarely, but then only in light of what other analysis has had to state on the word application.  Never basing a position on only what Strong's, Young's, etc has had to say about it. James Strong was just one scholar.  Even Robert Young does not agree in total with James Strong.   Yet both have produced very good concordances and dictionaries.   There are many very good Greek scholars that do not agree with James Strong's analysis of each and every word.  The same can be said of the Hebrew / Aramaic side of the scripture.  

One must be careful not to elevate the work of any one man to the level of scripture authority.   And one should follow the Torah requirement of  no matter, even a word definition, can be established on the testimony of one person.   The Torah requires a minimum of two witnesses to establish a matter.  I provided two witnesses... Dr. Kenneth Wuest and Dr. Andy Woods... in support of my assertion regarding 2 Thessalonians 2.  I then showed that the OT and NT (two witnesses again) are in unison regarding the removal / departure of the righteous before the man of sin / lawless one / antichrist is revealed.

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[Uriah]

5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

One must be careful not to elevate the work of any one man to the level of scripture authority.  

Here are 2 witnesses from the O.T. taught exclusively by Jesus:

 According to Him, in the stories of Noah and Lot, God's people were NOT removed UNTIL the very day that the Judgment of God came down from the sky above. Then He added, "it will be just like this when the Son of man comes."

For a third, we can go straight to Matt 24 and see His elect are taken up AFTER all of the cataclysms. Fourth, Rev. 15 declares that NO MAN can enter until the 7 last plagues are finished. I already showed 2 Thes. 2:8. 

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

Here are 2 witnesses from the O.T. taught exclusively by Jesus:

 According to Him, in the stories of Noah and Lot, God's people were NOT removed UNTIL the very day that the Judgment of God came down from the sky above. Then He added, "it will be just like this when the Son of man comes."

For a third, we can go straight to Matt 24 and see His elect are taken up AFTER all of the cataclysms. Fourth, Rev. 15 declares that NO MAN can enter until the 7 last plagues are finished. I already showed 2 Thes. 2:8. 

Except, the only two witnesses are the NT and the OT when it comes to doctrine.  Not two examples from either OT or NT. 

Please show the verse from Matthew 24 that the elect are taken up after the cataclysms. 

The "elect" does not only mean the redeemed.  Election is not an alternative word for justification.  One can be elect for the purpose of Yahweh and not be righteous.   Only the justified are righteous.  Isaiah 45 tells us that Jacob (Israel) is Yahweh's elect.  Yeshua does an expositional commentary on Joel 3 in Matthew 25 where the nations are judged on how they treated the elect.. the Hebrew people. 

And in Matthew 24, "as it was the days of Noah".... read it carefully.  Those who are taken are those fit for destruction just like those in Noah's day who were taken by the flood.    So there is no "rapture" or "taken up" going on unless you classify those being taken to hades as being raptured.  Strange idea, but I have heard stranger ideas.

And all this is going on in lieu of the righteous having been gathered and placed into the rooms prepared by Yeshua for them at His Father's house prior to the indignation beginning.    The indignation (za'am) is the wrath.   The wrath begins before the antichrist is revealed.  The redeemed are gathered to their rooms before the wrath begins.    Isaiah, Daniel, John, and Paul to the Thessalonians support this concept. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldCoot
Spelling. Stupid spell checker!

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I then showed that the OT and NT (two witnesses again) are in unison regarding the removal / departure of the righteous before the man of sin / lawless one / antichrist is revealed.

 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thess 2

The gathering can only come after the man of sin is revealed or else the gathering must occur before the gathering occurs. 

 

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. - Matt 24

Would not make much sense to shorten the days for the elect if the elect are not here.

 

 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Matt 24

The gathering only happens after the cosmic signs and the people of the earth mourn and Jesus is seen.

One should not make the mistake of thinking the elect are anything other than the friends of Jesus.

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

Please show the verse from Matthew 24 that the elect are taken up after the cataclysms.

 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Cataclysms)

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (After the cataclysms)

 

 

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thess 2

The gathering can only come after the man of sin is revealed or else the gathering must occur before the gathering occurs. 

 

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. - Matt 24

Would not make much sense to shorten the days for the elect if the elect are not here.

 

 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Matt 24

The gathering only happens after the cosmic signs and the people of the earth mourn and Jesus is seen.

One should not make the mistake of thinking the elect are anything other than the friends of Jesus.

 

 

 

 

 

The context of the passage is laid out in verse one by Paul......

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (1599 Geneva Bible) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him

The Thessalonians had been persuaded by some word or fake letter that they were in the day of the Lord. If they had been taught they would go thru the day of the Lord, then why would they be upset?

2 Thessalonians 2:2 (1599 Geneva Bible) That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.

Paul then reminded them that the Day of the Lord will not begin until the departure happens, and after that, the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

And the Geneva Bible is not the only one to say "departing". Every English prior to the KJV also used departing, departure, etc. And even some newer translations today use it. The Hebrew Names Bible is one. The Wuest Expanded Translation is another.  Even the Latin Vulgate... the standard bible of the church for 1200 years.... uses dicessio, which is departure.  And dicessio  has in view a spatial or distance departure not a spiritual departure.

And many Greek scholars of the last two centuries also concur that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2 has simply "departure" as its meaning. Anything else is adding to the text. And given the context is our gathering to the Lord from verse one, then departure (as in removal) is the only interpretation that maintains grammatical integrity.

As Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary, has stated..... "2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the pre-trib.  Game. Set.  Match"

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Cataclysms)

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (After the cataclysms)

 

 

As I also pointed out, the elect are also the people of Jacob (Israel) per Isaiah.  And Yeshua expands on that in Matthew 25 on the sheep and goat judgement which is a discourse on Joel 3.  The nations are judged on how they treated the "elect".  If only those redeemed are the elect, then how it is some of the nations are considered elect on how they treat the elect?  It makes little sense.  Yeshua is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.  He is Hebrew.  His brethren are the Hebrew people.  The Hebrew people are the elect of Yahweh per the scripture.  The sheep and goat judgment is on the nations on how they treated Yeshua's brethren, the Hebrew people.  This is straight out of Joel 3. 

And that assertion follows the mandate of the Torah regarding establishing a matter on the testimony of two witnesses, and as the Bereans in Acts 17 showed us, the two witnesses are the NT and the OT.

So underling that the elect are gathered from the four winds does not prove that the redeemed at the start of the tribulation period go thru it.  The pre-trib still stands firm.  And see the post before this one.

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldCoot