Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[iamlamad]

On 7/2/2022 at 6:19 AM, Linkin said:

The rapture comes at the end of the tribulation...

No, we will be coming WITH HIM as one of the armies of heaven.

Paul is clear that the rapture he wrote of would come just before wrath. John is clear that God's wrath will begin before the 70th week begins.

The above quote is therefore in error.

[iamlamad]

On 6/30/2022 at 4:11 AM, Diaste said:

I mean, a 2000 gap year is fine as long as it's how you see it. So there is a long gap. Sure you're correct on why there is a gap?

We find a hint at the 5th seal martyrs of the church age. They were told that the time of judgment would not come until the final church age martyr is killed ("Killed as they were" - which I understand is killed as a church age martyr).

Then with John's next verse he begins judgment with the start of the Day of the Lord, still in our future - because church age martyrs are still being killed.

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

We find a hint at the 5th seal martyrs of the church age. They were told that the time of judgment would not come until the final church age martyr is killed ("Killed as they were" - which I understand is killed as a church age martyr).

Then with John's next verse he begins judgment with the start of the Day of the Lord, still in our future - because church age martyrs are still being killed.

I see no mention of a 'church age' in Rev 6 at the 5th seal.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I see no mention of a 'church age' in Rev 6 at the 5th seal.

Scripture does, at times, require some further study. 

Are we living in "an age?"  The church is still on earth and still growing. I would say yes.

Paul hints strongly of an "age" he was in.

Ephesians 3:5  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Since he wrote of "other ages" that is a strong hint he was living in a different "age." Then Paul mentioned several times of the dispensation given to him for the Gentiles.

My conclusion is, we are now living in the church age. But it is really only an insert or parenthesis of the Messianic age Jesus created when He came. The proof of this is that this age will end with Daniel's 70th week which will end the Jewish age.

 

6:11 Then each one of them was given a white robe [^Csignifying high status and purity] and was told to ·wait [or rest] a short time longer. There were still some of their fellow servants and ·brothers and sisters in the service of Christ [^Ltheir brothers; ^Cthe Greek term may include men and women] who ·must be [were soon to be] killed as they were. They had to wait until all of this was ·finished [fulfilled; completed]. EXB

This waiting has been on-going now for nearly 2000 years. There are still martyrs being added to this group.

[JoeCanada]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, we will be coming WITH HIM as one of the armies of heaven.

Paul is clear that the rapture he wrote of would come just before wrath. John is clear that God's wrath will begin before the 70th week begins.

The above quote is therefore in error.

"John is clear that God's wrath will begin before the 70th week begins."

The above quote is therefore in error.

Oh.... I would definitely say that the above quote is in error.

You say that ...."John is clear that God's wrath will begin before the 70th week begins"

Really!

For you to state this, presumably as "fact"....then you must have scripture to back this up?.... Do you?

And.... how long before the 7oth week begins does God's wrath begin?

[JoeCanada]

On 7/2/2022 at 4:19 AM, Linkin said:

The rapture comes at the end of the tribulation. Those who are living will be changed, the dead are raised to life and we are all transported to near Jerusalem to be eye witnesses of the battle of Armageddon. Then the 1000 year reign of Messiah begins from Jerusalem.

 

Psalm 2:7 The promise made to Jesus by His Father was to make the nations his inheritance and the ends of the land his possession.

The promise to Abraham was to inherit the land. Gen. 13:15, 17:8, etc.

Repeated to Isaac and Jacob. Gen 26:3-5, Gen. 28:10-15..Etc..

Galatians 3:29 And if you are the Anointed one’s, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Hebrews 11.. etc..

 

 

 

Hi Linkin,

 You made a few good points.

I agree that the 'rapture' comes at the end of the 'great tribulation'...Matthew 24:29-31. Jesus tells us that " in this world you will have tribulation"...."through much tribulation we must enter the Kingdom of God....Acts 14:22"....."your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure....so that you may be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God...2Thes 1:5

At the end of the 'great tribulation'.... "the sun will be darkened and the moon not give its light...and then the sign of the Son of Man..... coming on the clouds... and He will send His angels and gather the elect...." Matthew 24:29-31

This is the end of the 'great trib'

And as you say ..."Those who are living will be changed, the dead are raised to life"

Then.... the Wrath of God on the ungodly.

What I don't agree with is..."and we are all transported to near Jerusalem to be eye witnesses of the battle of Armageddon"

Can you elaborate on this. Is there a scripture or two to back this up?

........." Then the 1000 year reign of Messiah begins from Jerusalem."

Yup, I agree.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

"John is clear that God's wrath will begin before the 70th week begins."

The above quote is therefore in error.

Oh.... I would definitely say that the above quote is in error.

You say that ...."John is clear that God's wrath will begin before the 70th week begins"

Really!

For you to state this, presumably as "fact"....then you must have scripture to back this up?.... Do you?

And.... how long before the 7oth week begins does God's wrath begin?

God's wrath begins BEFORE the 70th week with the start of the Day of His wrath -  at the 6th seal. The 70th week begins at the 7th seal.

My guess is, there will be ten days (the days of awe) between the 6th seal and the 7th seal. I guess that because I guess the rapture will come on the feast of trumpets and will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord (the 6th seal.) The ten days of awe follow the feast of trumpets.

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

God's wrath begins BEFORE the 70th week with the start of the Day of His wrath -  at the 6th seal. The 70th week begins at the 7th seal.

My guess is, there will be ten days (the days of awe) between the 6th seal and the 7th seal. I guess that because I guess the rapture will come on the feast of trumpets and will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord (the 6th seal.) The ten days of awe follow the feast of trumpets.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

You say that ...."John is clear that God's wrath will begin before the 70th week begins"

Really!

For you to state this, presumably as "fact"....then you must have scripture to back this up?.... Do you?

Ok.... well, I'm guessing, and it's really just a guess, (I guess) ..... that your answer to the question " Do you have scripture to back up what you stated about "John being clear that God's wrath will begin before the 70th week begins"

isn't much of an answer but a bunch of guesses......

So let me say this.... and it won't be guessing.....

The Old Testament has 3 scriptures that specifically tell us that the Day of the Lord will be a year long. It begins on a 'day'.... but it will be a year long.

And Jesus Himself gave us a major clue when He spoke of the "Days of Noah" as to the length of the Day of the Lord.

No need to guess.

It's right there in Scripture.

The '10 days of Awe' are at the end of everything.... they are the bowl judgments. They are 'shallow' bowls and are meant to be swiftly poured out. They are  the 'finality of God's Wrath'

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Ok.... well, I'm guessing, and it's really just a guess, (I guess) ..... that your answer to the question " Do you have scripture to back up what you stated about "John being clear that God's wrath will begin before the 70th week begins"

isn't much of an answer but a bunch of guesses......

So let me say this.... and it won't be guessing.....

The Old Testament has 3 scriptures that specifically tell us that the Day of the Lord will be a year long. It begins on a 'day'.... but it will be a year long.

And Jesus Himself gave us a major clue when He spoke of the "Days of Noah" as to the length of the Day of the Lord.

No need to guess.

It's right there in Scripture.

The '10 days of Awe' are at the end of everything.... they are the bowl judgments. They are 'shallow' bowls and are meant to be swiftly poured out. They are  the 'finality of God's Wrath'

 

Sorry but I don't believe you are reading those scriptures correctly.

John is VERY clear and so are most if not all of the commentaries, that the Day of the Lord will cover the entire 70th week.  He begins the Day at the 6th seal and never seems to end it.

[JoeCanada]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry but I don't believe you are reading those scriptures correctly.

John is VERY clear and so are most if not all of the commentaries, that the Day of the Lord will cover the entire 70th week.  He begins the Day at the 6th seal and never seems to end it.

But you still haven't provided any scriptures to support that "John is VERY clear that the DoL will cover the entire week"