Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[ChristB4us]

1 minute ago, FreeGrace said:

OK, so you are taking liberties to interpret what Jesus meant here.  Only Jesus has that privilege.  Not anyone else.  

it is not liberties when rightly dividing the word of truth as when this is done by others, we rely on the Lord Jesus Christ to confirm the word to us.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth....

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

1 Corinthians 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Wisdom comes from the Lord.  As it comes to me by Him, so shall it come to you.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

[FreeGrace]

2 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

FreeGrace said: 

OK, so you are taking liberties to interpret what Jesus meant here.  Only Jesus has that privilege.  Not anyone else. 

it is not liberties when rightly dividing the word of truth as when this is done by others, we rely on the Lord Jesus Christ to confirm the word to us.

Apparently you fail to understand the whole purpose of parables given by Jesus.  They were to teach truth in a way that people negative to truth wouldn't understand.

And, even His own disciples had to ask Him to explain.  But you seem to think you are above His own disciples and can properly interpet His parables.  So you ARE taking liberties with His parables.  Again, the parable isn't even close to teaching anything about a pretrib rapture.

2 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth....

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

"at His coming".  One of every time this wording occurs is about the Second Advent.  And you can't prove otherwise.

2 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

1 Corinthians 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Wisdom comes from the Lord.  As it comes to me by Him, so shall it come to you.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

I'm really not interested in your preaching AT me.  Every reference to the "coming" of Jesus is about the Second Advent, unless you can PROVE (with evidence) otherwise.

[ChristB4us]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Apparently you fail to understand the whole purpose of parables given by Jesus.  They were to teach truth in a way that people negative to truth wouldn't understand.

And, even His own disciples had to ask Him to explain.  

Hence all the more reasons for you to ask Him if you are overlooking something you are not seeing in His words.  No harm in asking, right?  Unless you are afraid to ask and find out you were wrong for why you are not asking Him at all.

[tatwo]

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes, of course Jesus is currently in heaven.

He is…no doubt…however...the first question I asked you is…”So that is to say that He is not here on earth now?” I could infer that you are saying “no” to that question in your initial response to me…and there is nothing in your answer to suggest you are saying “yes”….you did not give me a direct answer…simple question…simple answer.

Creation…all that is created…which is the heavens and earth…are contained “within God”…who is Spirit and eternal. Now our Lord Yahshua Christ is…”the visible image of the invisible God”…can you see Him? Additionally…“He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation”…we can probably all agree on that. Being that He is “the first born over all creation”…of course He must have a direct connection to His creation…right? 

Remember we are talking about the “present location” of the Lord Yahshua here…for those who read study and receive revelation from the Lord…we understand…that…through Him…God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth… 

It has been written…in Colossians 1...“ He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [speaking of Christ Yahshua] For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.” This is the Lord Yahshua Christ we are talking about here. 

We can read in Psalms 139 how king David expressed the location of the Lord…he was convinced that neither in heaven nor hell could he escape the presence…Spirit of the Lord & Creator… 

So He…”is alive and here…in the created  earth and in heaven”…right now…in this way…surely you knew that FreeGrace?

I will further deconstruct what you posted to me...and reveal an awesome Truth to "whosoever will" take the time to read it...in the next post to you.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Paul was clear about that in 2 Cor 5:6,8.  To be "absent from the body" (physically DEAD) is to be "at home with the Lord", and vice versa; to be "in the body" (physically ALIVE) is to be "absent from the Lord".

In your statement…”Paul was clear about that in 2 Cor 5:6,8.  To be "absent from the body" (physically DEAD) is to be "at home with the Lord", and vice versa; to be "in the body" (physically ALIVE) is to be "absent from the Lord".” 

It appears to me…that you seem to be saying…that Paul is creating the distinction as follows…”I am with the Lord if I am “physically dead”…I am not with the Lord if I am “physically alive.” Paul himself an Apostle of the Lord Yahshua…who reportedly penned those words…while “physically ALIVE”…yet was absent from the Lord? I’ll come back to Paul in II Corinthian as may be necessary here. 

If Yahshua the Creator…God…Father…Spirit…as we saw in my post above…to you…is not here…but is “remaining in or being contained in heaven”…as it would seem…you are suggesting the writer of the book of Acts says, ”FreeGrace”…then…what do you think Paul meant when he said…”do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?” 

Seems simple enough…Paul wrote…that those who have received the “Holy Spirit from God…the Spirit of God” in their “physically ALIVE” body…are the “temple of God.” So while “physically ALIVE” on the earth the “Holy Spirit” filled Sons of God are the “spiritual temple of God.” 

FreeGrace…when a living human who does not have the Holy Spirit…is filled with the “Holy Spirit” it is because they have responded to the Lords call of them…to Himself…and this…while they are yet “alive physically”…how could this ever possibly happen to the “physically dead”…right? If one dies without the Holy Spirit…off to judgment they will be going.  

So…whenever someone turns to the Lord…Paul says in II Corinthians 3…the veil is taken away…”what veil is that”…it is the veil between creation [natural] and the heaven of God [spiritual]…symbolically in ancient Israel there was a “veil” between the “Holy Place” and the “Holy of Holies”…it was torn in half from top to bottom….at the crucifixion of our Lord as they say. 

What “was” the veil for…its purpose? To keep the people from the prescience of God…yup…there is so much more to this…look it up for yourself if you like…you will land in that area somewhere with your understanding…that is if you don’t already realize it. 

The spiritual and symbolic meaning of the “temple Vail” being torn in half…was to reveal that very soon afterwards…anyone who received the “Spirit of God”…thus becoming the “temple of God…themselves”…as Paul wrote…and they would “no longer be seperate from the Lord Yahshua…spiritually” who is alive and exists as the Holy Spirit of the living God…in His temple…humanity on this earth at this time…do not forget what else is present in the temple of God…FreeGrace…His throne! 

Just a note…Additionally in Colossians 2 Paul says…“though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit” Again I Corinthians 5 he makes this statement…”For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.” One last reminder of Paul’s belief in this area…II Corinthians 5…”Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.” Paul seems to think that he can be pleasing to the Lord regardless of being “Physically dead” or “physically alive.”

FreeGrace you may want to revisit your interpretation of the passages you cited in your response to me.  

Back to the veil…this is shadowed in Moses…a type of Christ…when after he met with God…and after he would speak to the “sons of Israel”…he would put the veil back over his face. In other words…when Moses was speaking the “Word of God” his face was “unveiled”…Israel was symbolically seeing the “face of God…or standing in the presence of God” when Moses spoke the Word of God to them. Exodus 34…so this is scripturally consistent….see II Corinthians 3:12-15 also. We now receive the “Word” directly from the “Lord who is the Spirit of God.” 

However getting back to Paul…he will go on to write in II Corinthians 3:17…” Now the Lord is the Spirit“…the Lord Yahshua…”is the Spirit…He is the Spirit”…further he says…“and where the Spirit of the Lord is, [Yahshua] there is liberty.” Emphasis mine. 

This “liberty” that comes with the Spirit of the Lord…Yahshua…that Paul speaks of…is the liberation from merely dwelling in the “flesh” alone…to having ones dwelling in the “Spirit…who is the Lord”…which is in heaven…exactly wherever the Lord abides. 

In verse 18…”But we all, with unveiled face,”…meaning in the actual presence of God via the Holy Spirit which is the Lord.  

“beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord”… as typified in Moses…so to see His glory…one would need to be “in His presence”…to see Him as He is…a heavenly Spirit…and those who do “see Him as He is”…will be known by the fact that they will become a reflection of that same glory 

It is 100% likely…this is while we are yet “physically alive”…and in a lifestyle of constant spiritual growth and maturity…as we are loved and cared for and raised by our Father in His house/temple. Listen to Paul in regards to this in the next part of Vs. 18 

He is referring to those of us who have been granted the “liberty”…by receiving the “Spirit who is the Lord” Yahshua…who are yet “physically alive”…now with an “unveiled face”…are seeing the Lord…standing in His presence and becoming His reflection as we do while we are “physically alive” on the “earth.” 

Paul continues…“we are being transformed into the same image”… it should be clear that Brother Paul understands that as we stand before the Lord of glory…”having the veiled limitation of the flesh removed” that as we do…we are being transformed into His Image and likeness…there is literally no other way to enter the process of transformation in to the likeness of the Lord Yahshua except to be in His very presence…always. 

Then he goes on to state “from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.”…that #1 that “our” transformation or spiritual maturity into a mature representation of Christ Yahshua…is the process of continually moving from one stage of glory to another…exactly as he wrote in Ephesians 4:11-16…i.e. “to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children.” 

#2…This “glory to glory” process of maturity…growing up…is taking place right here right now on the earth in those who are “physically and spiritually ALIVE” by virtue of being filled with the Spirit of God…which constitutes the living “Body of Christ” as directed by its Head…Yahshua the Lord who is the “Holy Spirit.”  

To finish this I will present the following…from II Corinthians 5…just a bit past what you quoted FreeGrace…vs. 16 & 17.  

Paul speaking…”Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh.” Ok so this was written  somewhere around the mid first century as we are told…so at the very least since Paul wrote it back then…he is saying that we are not to “address…interact or acknowledge” those with the Holy Spirit according to the limitations of being simply “flesh” any longer 

When he says…”according to the flesh”…that is what you call “physically alive”...we are no longer to live on the unregenerate human frequency…we are to connect on the frequency of the Spirit…in the heavens. 

Then Paul uses the situation with the Lord Yahshua to explain his statement…“Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh” [He “was here” in a physical human body at one time] “yet now we know Him thus no longer.” Interesting choice of words I must say…Paul is not saying we no longer “know Him”…he is saying His flesh is gone…He is “physically dead”…we do not “know” Him in a temporal or physical sense because He is gone…but we now “know Him” by His Spirit within us…His temple...”in Christ.”  

Lastly…in vs. 17 he reminds us…”Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” Meaning that…when we move from “physically alive in the flesh…to spiritually alive in the physical flesh”…meaning the life within us is Spirit…we are a “new creation” that lives and has its being “in Christ” who is the Spirit of the living God.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Acts 3:21 says that heaven must retain, contain Jesus until the restoration of all things, which is a reference to the MK.

As for Acts 3:21 that you referenced above…the meaning of “retain, contain” until the restoration of all things is a reference to Him continuing to be an “invisible Spirit” until the time in which He reveals the fullness of who He is to all of creation openly. That is what John said in I John 3 where he wrote…”Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

Tatwo...:)

[bloom]

5 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

The mansions is when they are resurrected as firstfruits to dwell in the City of God in Heaven as they will be like the angels that never die nor marry; hence vessels unto honor in His House for departing from iniquity, thus vessels of gold and silver.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Those after the great tribulation will be resurrected not as firstfruits but they that be Christ's at His coming; hence as vessels unto dishonor in His House as only the power of the second death will not be over them as they will need to eat from the tree of life for the healing of the nations as they serve the King of kings from all over the world as kings and priests in marrying and raising up the next generations coming in that thousand year reign of Christ on earth in Revelation 20:1-6.

So may every unrepentant believer and former believers go before that throne of grace for help to see the truth in His words to depart from iniquity so they too may be found abiding in Him to be taken as vessels unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven.  Or else become castaways and resurrected as vessels unto dishonor in His House but still in His House after the great tribulation for not looking to Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd & Friend in laying aside every weight & sin daily.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven", and 2 Timothy 2 does not apply to heaven but to the earth.

[ChristB4us]

32 minutes ago, bloom said:

John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven", and 2 Timothy 2 does not apply to heaven but to the earth.

That was in regards to where the spirits of the saints were before Jesus's ascension as Paradise aka Abraham's bosom, was originally located beneath the earth across the great gulf from hell.  After His ascension, Paradise is now located in heaven per 2 Corinthians 12:1-4

Edited April 10, 2023 by ChristB4us

[bloom]

6 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

That was in regards to where the spirits of the saints were before Jesus's ascension as Paradise aka Abraham's bosom, was originally located beneath the earth across the great gulf from hell.  After His ascension, Paradise is now located in heaven per 2 Corinthians 12:1-4

Yes paradise is under the altar . All souls are there resting, the good above the bad below. The good have pleasant dreams the bad horrible dreams. 

[ChristB4us]

9 minutes ago, bloom said:

Yes paradise is under the altar . All souls are there resting, the good above the bad below. The good have pleasant dreams the bad horrible dreams. 

Their bodies are "asleep" waiting for the resurrection but their spirits are awake and aware of where they are in Paradise as well as the ones in hades.

As for the ones under the altar, I am led to believe that these are the souls of those that have not been resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture event, but will be joined by other spirits of the saints that get left behind to die along with new believers as they will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor.

Then at the Great White Throne Judgment will be the resurrection of the rest of the dead.  Pretty much testifying that none of the living that have died, will remain in the spirit realm but resurrected to inherit eternal home in living with God or eternal torment in the lake of fire for ever.