Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Fraught]

why dispensationalism is clear from the text of Romans 11

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part UNTIL THE FULL NUMBER OF THE GENTILES HAS COME IN. And so all Israel will be saved

key words: "until" and "full number of Gentiles"

the Jews were scattered after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and Israel was basically desolate until about 100 years ago, when the Jews started pouring back in from all over the world (exactly as predicted), then Israel became a nation again in 1948 in the most extreme circumstances imaginable...since then it's been unending conflict, exactly as predicted, and they are now living at the center of the Land, exactly as predicted

Romans 11 makes it clear Israel will not be restored (as predicted in Zechariah and various other OT prophets) UNTIL the age of the Gentiles, the Church Age, is finished

rock solid proof that a) a time of Israel's restoration is yet future, b) the Church (comprised largely of Gentiles) has absolutely nothing to do with it

I challenge anyone to logically refute this from scripture, it can't be done

sorry, yzf-r1 but it has been done - and by more knowledgeable bible scholars than you or i

[OneLight]

yzf-r1,

You seem to enjoy a challenge. Have you been to Rapture Ready Boards yet? The link below will bring you there. Enjoy!

Brother in Christ,

OneLight

http://www.rr-bb.com/

[Guest Centauri23]

hmmmm Pre trib rapture.? With out a doubt this is NOT a biblical perspective. Christ said He will Return again. We are waiting His Second and FINAL comming. We are CHOSEN. When Christ returns and you are not ready you never will be. Case in piont ..Remember the 10 vergins.5 brougt enough oil for the cerimony 5 did not. If you are not ready the Damnation is you destiny.Take care and God bless

Hello brothers and sisters,

Since the forums got a little jumbled, I decided to go ahead and start a few new threads. This thread is the defense of the pre-trib rapture theological position.

Why do you believe in a pre trib rapture?

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

[Yahsway]

In the book of Rev 7 angels sound seven trumpets. When the 7th angel blows the LAST of these trumpets, then "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord" (Rev 11:15-16)

It is all over. It is THE LAST TRUMPET.

There canot be another trumpet after the LAST trumpet. If another trumpet were sounded after the 7th one, then all was not finished, it was not the LAST trumpet.

So when will we all "be changed?" We will all be changed, in a moment, at the sound of the LAST trumpet. (1Corith 15:52)

The change cannot occur before the Last trumpet of Revelation 7. Therefore, Believers will experience some persecution before they experience the promised change.

Believers will be killed for their faith. The anti-christ persecutes the Believers. John saw myrids coming out of the great trib having their garments made white with the blood of the Lamb. The angel tells John these come out of EVERY tribe, tongue and nations, they are not just Jewish believers.

[Guest]

yes, a vast number of people will come to Christ - Jew and Gentile - by the preaching of the 144,000, Revelation 7 makes that clear, but the VEHICLE of God's message to the world is again via the Jews, not the Church

I don't know how many times I have heard this about the preaching off the 144,000. Scores of times to be sure. When I examine the Bible, I find the following verses pertaining to the 140,000:

Rev 7:4-8

4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

NIV

Rev 14:1-5

14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

NIV

Now, what I see is that they are sealed, that they on Mt. Zion with the Lamb, that they sing a new song before the throne, the creatures, and the elders. That they are undefiled and redeemed from the earth and that the follow the Lamb wherever he goes. There is a fair amount of information about them, but I always wonder where the verse is about them preaching to anyone.

Is there some verse about them that I have missed? I wonder that occasionally, but you said that is clear from Rev 7. It is not clear to me from Rev 7 that they preach to anyone. Would you care to show me those words, or is this just another assertion and assumption that pre-tribbers make to bolster their case, hoping no one will notice that it isn't actually in the bible, but in their heads?

[whirlwind]

I don't know how many times I have heard this about the preaching off the 144,000. Scores of times to be sure. When I examine the Bible, I find the following verses pertaining to the 140,000:

Now, what I see is that they are sealed, that they on Mt. Zion with the Lamb, that they sing a new song before the throne, the creatures, and the elders. That they are undefiled and redeemed from the earth and that the follow the Lamb wherever he goes. There is a fair amount of information about them, but I always wonder where the verse is about them preaching to anyone.

Is there some verse about them that I have missed? I wonder that occasionally, but you said that is clear from Rev 7. It is not clear to me from Rev 7 that they preach to anyone. Would you care to show me those words, or is this just another assertion and assumption that pre-tribbers make to bolster their case, hoping no one will notice that it isn't actually in the bible, but in their heads?

If they are not preaching to the rest of the people on the earth during the time of the Tribulation, who is?

There are only two different sets of earthly witnesses during the Tribulation. The two witnesses, and the 144,000 witnesses.

There are two...well, actually, there is one tribulation (that of Satan) and then there will be the wrath of God. Satan's time of tribulation will be a big love fest....he will be pretending to be Christ so he will come in peacefully and prosperously and trick you with lies and deceit. As Christ said:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the begining of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22.And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That is when Satan will be here. Christ doesn't come until after him and we must wait for the true Christ or we will have taken the "mark of the beast."

The 144,000 are not the ones that will be preaching. Those are they that must be sealed with God's truth before the end can come:

Rev.7:3 saying "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

4.And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

They have been worshipping the anti-christ/Satan, believing he was Christ until they heard the testimony of the 7,000 elect. (Matt.24:22) They are the reason the time was shortened. Some of those elect will be taken before Satan for a testimony and the Holy Spirit will speak through them. What is said will bring many to Christ as others will realize they have been mistakenly following Satan.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute y ou, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.

13.And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14.Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15.For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Also see Mark 13:9-11 and Matthew 24:9-14

Those 7,000 elect are the ones that will testify. The Holy Spirit will speak through them and many will be sealed with God's truth.

............Whirlwind

[Guest]

If they are not preaching to the rest of the people on the earth during the time of the Tribulation, who is?

There are only two different sets of earthly witnesses during the Tribulation. The two witnesses, and the 144,000 witnesses.

Well, let's see, your first point is essentially that some one must be preaching, and in the absence of a verse that tells the answer, you just jump to a conclusion that it has to be a certain group that is never said to be preaching? What kind is exegesis is that? We are told the 144,000 are with Jesus on Mount Zion, and before the throne and the living creatures etc., and that they follow the lamb where ever He goes. None of those cases even places them in the tribulation does it?

You say that there are only two sets of earthly witnesses, and fail to prove that the 144k witness or are even present - isn't there something wrong here? The bigger problem though, is that you assume that they have to be there, because you assume that the church is gone, but you did not even establish that. If you need witnesses, how about all of the prepared post-tribbers and bewildered pretribbers that will be there?

[eric]

Also Omegaman, I would like to ask if the church will be gone during the tribulation, the holy spirit will go with the church, so who is going to convict the people, who are allegedly left beind, of their need of a saviour. The witnesses can only witness.......they have no power to offer salvation......well at least I don't think so, unless of course you

buy into two second comings

edited to add. I'm not here to boost the pre tribbers, but to endorse Oman's post

Edited November 2, 2007 by eric

[eric]

Hey Cobalt, this is the first time ever I have posted in this forum and I don't recall addressing you by name and I'm certainly not bashing your head. I'm no more certain how things will pan out, anymore than anyone else, but I am persuaded to take the post trib over the pretrib.

No skin of my nose either way, because at my age I wont be here which ever is first.

[eric]

Cobalt, thanks mate