Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[omharris]

On 5/15/2016 at 5:56 PM, Guest Robert said:

ALL of us are messed up, period. That's why we need Jesus in the first place. But as to the question here: Hal Lindsey pointed out that in this dispensation (the age of Grace), there is now no difference between Jew and gentile who trust in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:12). The Age of Law was paused before "Daniel's last week", when the kingdom was offered by Jesus Christ to Israel and they rejected Him by crucifying him. After the Rapture, the "clock" starts again on the last week when the Beast makes the agreement with the "many".

My point here is that if the Church were to be here for the Tribulation, then there would be a difference between the Jewish and Gentile believers. The Age of Law starts once again, and the 490 years Daniel spoke of finishes out. Not to mention there really is no point to the church being here for the Tribulation: if Christ's blood is not enough to cleanse us, nothing else is. If it's to suffer, we would do well to keep in mind that there are already believers out here in the world who are going through tremendous trials and suffering. Another thing to consider as well: if it were a post-trib rapture, Rev 19 mentions that we would return with Jesus Christ at Armageddon. So, we would be running into ourselves and literally would not know if we were coming or going.

And the Rapture is called "The Blessed Hope"; not much of a hope if we leave after the trib. That's like calling the fire department for a fire after it burned to the ground and all that's left is smoking ashes.

I like the way you think. Amen.

[Steve Conley]

On 5/15/2016 at 8:56 PM, Guest Robert said:

ALL of us are messed up, period. That's why we need Jesus in the first place. But as to the question here: Hal Lindsey pointed out that in this dispensation (the age of Grace), there is now no difference between Jew and gentile who trust in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:12). The Age of Law was paused before "Daniel's last week", when the kingdom was offered by Jesus Christ to Israel and they rejected Him by crucifying him. After the Rapture, the "clock" starts again on the last week when the Beast makes the agreement with the "many".

My point here is that if the Church were to be here for the Tribulation, then there would be a difference between the Jewish and Gentile believers. The Age of Law starts once again, and the 490 years Daniel spoke of finishes out. Not to mention there really is no point to the church being here for the Tribulation: if Christ's blood is not enough to cleanse us, nothing else is. If it's to suffer, we would do well to keep in mind that there are already believers out here in the world who are going through tremendous trials and suffering. Another thing to consider as well: if it were a post-trib rapture, Rev 19 mentions that we would return with Jesus Christ at Armageddon. So, we would be running into ourselves and literally would not know if we were coming or going.

And the Rapture is called "The Blessed Hope"; not much of a hope if we leave after the trib. That's like calling the fire department for a fire after it burned to the ground and all that's left is smoking ashes.

 

On 4/28/2018 at 12:35 PM, omharris said:

I like the way you think. Amen.

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The great tribulation is a continuation of the persecution that the church and Israel faces today. The only difference is that it is more severe in scope and intensity. The increase is the result of Satan being cast from Heaven to the earth in the middle of the week. We are told that when this happens, that He has great wrath (Rev 12:12). He at that time gives power unto the Beast, who stands in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and shews himself to be God, thereby defiling it and causing the re-instituted sacrifices and oblations to cease (Dan 9:27; Matt 24:15; 2Thes 2:3-10). It is at this demand to be worshiped and receive his mark in the middle of the week that unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) begins.

There is nothing new in the way of purifying influence for the believer that is achieved by this increase in persecution. Persecution has always been part of the cost to follow the Saviour. Paul said, all who will live godly, will suffer persecution. James said that we are to "count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations", because it is a test our faith and if our faith is true, we will endure. Peter said "happy are ye", if we suffer for righteousness' sake. The saints in various places around the world are suffering extreme persecution. Our brethren are abused, beaten, imprisoned, tortured, compelled to blaspheme, raped, made slaves, suffer robbery and theft, compelled to worship allah (Satan) at the threat of death, and killed in every way imaginable. That is happening to the bride of Christ today. The only difference is that, I believe soon, the severity and scope will become unprecedented.

I was a pre-trib teacher for 30+ years. I say this now with love and care. You pre-tribbers need to spend more time in the Word. I didn't say you need to spend more time reading your pre-trib teachers. Most of you have misunderstood too many things concerning the eschaton. One of those is that you have taken a footnote of Christ's return and turned it into the blessed hope. The rapture (catching up) is not the blessed hope! Jesus is the blessed hope! He has always been the hope of the saints. The saints have with confident expectation (hope) looked for Him. If the rapture (the catching up of those who survive) is the blessed hope, then it isn't realized by the saints who die prior to Christ's coming. All the saints throughout the last 2000 years who have died according to your definition of the blessed hope have been disappointed. But your definition is wrong. Jesus is the blessed hope. We will see Him at His glorious appearing to take us to be with Him.

The pre-trib rapture is a recent fantasy of the Western church, which has faced little to no persecution. The pre-trib rapture is the illusion of escape from violent persecution for those whose lives have been so lacking in testimony of Christ that they have never been threatened with violence. The pre-trib rapture model is utterly unsupportable. It is in essence like the prosperity gospel, which promises glory without suffering. It is pernicious escapism.

Concerning Guest's statement: Revelation 19 doesn't describe Christ's arrival at His parousia, it describes His ongoing activities involving the destruction of the Beast and the armies that follow him at the end of the week. Rev 19 is not Matt 24:30. Matt 24:30-31 is 1Thes 4:15-17; 5:2-3; 2Thes 1:6-10; 2:1-2; Rev 1:7; and many other Scriptures describing Christ's appearing at His arrival in His singular second coming (parousia).

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Last Daze]

8 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

The great tribulation is a continuation of the persecution that the church and Israel faces today. The only difference is that it is more severe in scope and intensity. The increase is the result of Satan being cast from Heaven to the earth.

Exactly true.  One unprecedented event resulting from another.

• For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Matthew 24:21
• So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Revelation 12:17

May we all be prepared.

[Diaste]

On 4/20/2018 at 4:51 PM, HAZARD said:

There are only there things in the

world today that hinder lawlessness. They are the church, the Holy Spirit and
human governments. 

Yeah. Not a lot of lawlessness going on these days. 

And the church hinders lawlessness?? The Christian church is the lowest community on earth when it comes to lawlessness. Divorce, greed, murder, adultery, abuse, not to mention allowing every doctrine of every devil ever created to flourish in the 'church building'. 

This whole post is uninformed, out of touch with reality and just plain sad. And just so you know, I follow Jesus Christ, not the "Christian Church".

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Yeah. Not a lot of lawlessness going on these days. 

And the church hinders lawlessness?? The Christian church is the lowest community on earth when it comes to lawlessness. Divorce, greed, murder, adultery, abuse, not to mention allowing every doctrine of every devil ever created to flourish in the 'church building'. 

This whole post is uninformed, out of touch with reality and just plain sad. And just so you know, I follow Jesus Christ, not the "Christian Church".

Not talking about mens churches, its God's true church, His called out ones on earth that hinders lawlessness. 

Jesus Christs church is not a building or a particular religious group with some special name?  The new Testament Church, of which Jesus Christ is the head is a called out body of people of all nations who have been born again and who have lived a true Christian life and died in the faith. It also includes all those who are alive in Christ today. This present church is called the "ekklesia" of the New Testament times, called out of this world to evangelize the world in this age.

God's church, in its largest signification is the whole company of redeemed in all ages, in Heaven and in Earth (Eph. 3:1-11; Heb. 12:23). It is the spiritual people who have been made members of the universial family of God. The church in this sense is the body of Christ, and it does not consist of saved and unsaved. It is not a group of individuals associated together for social and benevolent purposes, as seems to be on every hand in most worldly church gatherings. It is the body of people indwelt by God through the Holy Spirit and through whom God works in the world.

The church is a supernatural body of believers filled with the presence and power of God as individuals conform to the gospel of Christ. The church is like a family in its social life, yet is unlike a family in its formation. Each local church is a part of the universal church in the broad sense.  However there are many in local churches that do not belong to the body of Christ, and therefore they are not a true part of the universal church of the New Testament.

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Wow.

Hate the Church much?

Talk about your uninformed posts.  Divorce rates in the Church are almost as high as they are in secular society.  Not surprising since although saved, the people in the church are still humans who make mistakes.  I highly doubt adultery is as high but I know of no studies focusing on that component only, so how, exactly do you know this?  As for murder, murder is rampant in the church?  Really?  Produce some statistics that prove your claim.

You also cannot be "not" in a Church and "following Jesus" as effectively as you could be, so the concept of being an effective Christian and not being churched is a none-starter.  Your entire post smacks of "I'm above all of that."   

Hmm...have you paid attention, really paid attention? All of what I contend is seen in the news. And that's just what is seen in the news. But that's not the real issue. Guilty of one is guilty of all, as scripture says. So yes, the sins in the church are manifest and comprehensive. The congregation is in trouble. I speak with regulars of congregations all the time. I hear much of this from their lips. But this ain't the point either. The "church" doesn't "restrain lawlessness" as it cannot keep it's own house, and that is not it's mission. To say such a thing is uninformed. 

Following after Christ has little or nothing to do with organized religion. Pastors or ministers of congregations do not speak truth in may cases, especially in the mega churches. Have you taken the time to check what they say against scripture? My long time friend is a minister in one of the biggest denominations in the US. He fully believes the tithe is inviolate biblical truth. The NT disputes this. Does he hear the Apostle? No. This is just one example. We should not blindly defend but seek truth and wisdom from above in Jesus name.

I don't hate the church. I hate the lies, the posturing, the hypocrisy, the dissembling, and the deception.

This is why the beast comes for the church, to purify and remove the spots. Best get ready.

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Not talking about mens churches, its God's true church, His called out ones on earth that hinders lawlessness. 

Jesus Christs church is not a building or a particular religious group with some special name?  The new Testament Church, of which Jesus Christ is the head is a called out body of people of all nations who have been born again and who have lived a true Christian life and died in the faith. It also includes all those who are alive in Christ today. This present church is called the "ekklesia" of the New Testament times, called out of this world to evangelize the world in this age.

God's church, in its largest signification is the whole company of redeemed in all ages, in Heaven and in Earth (Eph. 3:1-11; Heb. 12:23). It is the spiritual people who have been made members of the universial family of God. The church in this sense is the body of Christ, and it does not consist of saved and unsaved. It is not a group of individuals associated together for social and benevolent purposes, as seems to be on every hand in most worldly church gatherings. It is the body of people indwelt by God through the Holy Spirit and through whom God works in the world.

The church is a supernatural body of believers filled with the presence and power of God as individuals conform to the gospel of Christ. The church is like a family in its social life, yet is unlike a family in its formation. Each local church is a part of the universal church in the broad sense.  However there are many in local churches that do not belong to the body of Christ, and therefore they are not a true part of the universal church of the New Testament.

This is true. But if the reference of true body restraining lawlessness is 2 Thess 2 then that's not quite right.  

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

That's odd.  When asked for statistics after a clear statement from you that the Church is guilty of wide-spread murder, you offered . . . Nothing.

You segued-ed into an unrelated diatribe that had nothing to do, at all, with the points I made, or proof I asked for to back up clear statements you made.  It would seem that feints and misdirection are your main devices when it comes to dealing with flippant remarks with no basis in fact.

Try to focus.  I asked for statistics that the Church is guilty of wide-spread murder.  I got a foul ball.  Care to try again, actually dealing with what I asked for?  If your position is concrete, it should not be that difficult for you to deliver.  I'm holding my breath so you might want to actually deal with what I wrote before I pass out.

Below is what I said.

 

And the church hinders lawlessness?? The Christian church is the lowest community on earth when it comes to lawlessness. Divorce, greed, murder, adultery, abuse, not to mention allowing every doctrine of every devil ever created to flourish in the 'church building'. 

 I said nothing about widespread murder. Murder at all in such a community should be unheard of. "Murder" is hating your neighbor at it's most basic.

That any of the above mentioned behaviors are present in the Christian community is a disgrace to our Lord.

I really appreciate the demeaning language. You think that offends me? One of the reasons I find your replies insincere is when you take my words and twist them, even when the exact quotes are available for all to see! 

In this amount of time you could have googled those statistics. You are asking me for a proof you can find much quicker yourself, not that I ever suggested what you said I did.

And your queries are unimportant, as are you demands for answers to speech that never occurred. If you had asked probing, pithy questions the truth may have been found. I don't believe I am in any way obligated to give answers that please you, in any case. 

So....great fun. Let's do it again sometime! ?

[HAZARD]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is true. But if the reference of true body restraining lawlessness is 2 Thess 2 then that's not quite right.  

The Antichrist will be revealed when the hinderer of lawlessness is removed. During the tribulation, governments will be here, the Holy Spirit will be here, the Church, Christs call our true believers will be gone, Raptured.

[Steve Conley]

On 5/8/2018 at 5:38 PM, HAZARD said:

The Antichrist will be revealed when the hinderer of lawlessness is removed. During the tribulation, governments will be here, the Holy Spirit will be here, the Church, Christs call our true believers will be gone, Raptured.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

HAZARD, that's a good handle to warn those that come across your teaching, they should take note that it may be hazardous to their spiritual welfare. When you teach a system that effectively sets aside many of Christ's warnings as not being applicable to the church you place believers and "professors" in great jeopardy.

Concerning the one withholding the revelation of the man of sin (the Beast), it is Michael the archangel who is presently tasked in that ministry.

Michael's suitability to be the restrainer

The Holy Scriptures present Michael as the mightiest of the Heavenly Host. He is seen opposing Satan on a handful of occasions in the Scriptures. Jude tells us that Michael contended with the Devil over the body of Moses, whom he rebuked in the name of the Lord. As recorded in Daniel 10, it is Michael that dealt with the prince of Persia when he had detained Gabriel on his way with a message for Daniel. In the future Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with Satan and his angels, after which he will cast Satan to the earth. It is he who appears to have been tasked with the responsibility to hold back the revelation of the man of sin until it is the right time.

Michael's unique relationship to the middle of the seventieth week

In the future eschatological period known as Daniel's seventieth week, the archangel Michael will play a significant role. We find him in three passages that present events that take place in the middle of the week.

1) Michael stands up and an unparalleled time of trouble begins (Dan 12:1)

Dan 11:45  And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:7  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The context of the end of Daniel chapter 11 is the activities of the Beast in the end of the age. In chapter 11 we learn characteristics about him and see some of his military activities. The chapter ends with him placing the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain. This location appears to be Mt Zion in Jerusalem. The significance of this is that it is at that time (Dan 12:1) that Michael makes a change in his activity which results in an unparalleled time of trouble (Dan 12:1). This time of trouble is consistent with the great tribulation Jesus spoke of. We also see that there is a unique period length that is mentioned in relation to what is taking place in the beginning of chapter 12. The length that is given is "a time, times, and an half" or 3 1/2 years. Seven times in the Scriptures we find this same length spoken of in various forms: 1260 days, 42 months, and 3 1/2 years. It appears each time that they are associated with the second half of the seventieth week. The obvious conclusion is that the change in activity by Michael takes place in the middle of the week.

2) War in heaven, Satan cast to the earth (Rev 12:7-14)

Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with the dragon (Satan) and his angels, after which Satan is cast to the earth having great wrath. Once upon the earth Satan goes after a remnant of Israel (represented by the woman) but she is hid and fed by God in the wilderness for 1260 days (Rev 12:6). The 1260 days indicate that the war in heaven took place in the middle of the week. Again, we see that Michael is very prominent in the middle of the week.

3) The abomination of desolation starts the great tribulation (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27)

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The temple is defiled in the middle of the week which initiates the great tribulation. This is consistent with the Dan 12 passage but Michael is not mentioned by name or referred to.

4) The revelation of the man of sin (2Thess 2:3-10)

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

In Paul's instruction to the Thessalonians, he tells them that before the day of Christ can come there must be a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed. He also mentions that there is one who is withholding the revelation of the man of sin and that they, the Thessalonians,  knew who it was. This revelation would involve the man of sin sitting in the temple and shewing himself to be God. Paul also says that this Antichrist shall receive power from Satan. 

We already know from the previous passages we looked at that the abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of the week and it begins the great tribulation. Here we see further details concerning the defiling of the temple and learn of one hindering the work of the mystery of iniquity. It is said that this hindering will continue "until he be taken out of the way." It is interesting to note that the last Greek word in verse seven is "mesos" which means middle even though it is translated "the way". It is as if Paul is saying that the restrainer will continue to hinder until he stands aside in the middle. I wonder what middle he was referring to. Could it be the middle of the week? Could this restrainer be Michael who is associated with the middle of the week?

I believe Michael is the restrainer of 2Thes 2.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.