Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Retrobyter]

On 4/7/2017 at 5:51 AM, Limey_Bob said:

Well said, in fact that is obvious, the idea of disincarnate spirits (souls) reigning with fully human people, both the lost and saved upon this earth during some 1,000 years, when Christ is ruling from Jerusalem as King, yet at the end of this period when Christ is here on this earth, there is a rebellion against him, oh come on, that's nonsense. So yes I agree with you, at the second coming eternity begins.

Shalom, Limey_Bob, and Chag Sameach (Happy Holiday)! Happy Pesach (Passover)!

First, there's no such thing as a "disincarnate spirit." And, that's NOT what a "soul" is. How can you have a "breath" without a body? You may have a "WIND," but not a "breath." We've bought into the Platonism that there is such a thing as a "soul" separate from the body, hook, line, and sinker! Sorry, but that's NOT what a "soul" is!

Go back to Genesis:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

He did NOT say that YHWH God "formed the body of the man"; he said that He "formed MAN of the dust of the ground." Man doesn't HAVE a body; man IS the body!

Then, God breathed (puffed) into the man's nostrils the breath (puff) of life, and man became a living SOUL, a living NEFESH, a living AIR-BREATHER! (This is an example of the first CPR performed, although it is not technically a "resuscitation.")

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves,  slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.

OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Later, we read,...

Genesis 7:17-22
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth (the ground), both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath (Hebrew: nishmat ruwach = "a puff of wind") of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
KJV

OT:5397 neshaamaah (nesh-aw-maw'); from OT:5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:
KJV - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV - air, anger, blast, breath,  cool, courage, mind,  quarter,  side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest,  vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, the simple formula in Hebrew is: adam + nishmat ruwach = nefesh.
In English, the simple formula is: body (the man) + breath = air-breather.

Or, in "biblical" terms: body + spirit = soul.

Then, realizing that the Greek word "sooma" was used for "body," the Greek word "pneuma" was used to translate the Hebrew word "ruwach," and the Greek word "psuchee" was used to translate "nefesh," one arrives at the Greek version of the formula:

sooma + pneuma = psuchee.

(My transliteration schemes are that the Hebrew letter "pei" when dotted is a "p" but instead of using a "ph" for the undotted "fei," I use an "f." I represent the Greek letter "omicron" as an "o," the Greek letter "omega" as an "oo," the Greek letter "epsilon" as an "e," and the Greek letter "eta" as an "ee." The Greek letter "phi" I also represent with an "f," and the Greek letter "psi" with a "ps.")

Once armed with this information, one should THEN go back and re-read Revelation in light of this information.

[Retrobyter]

On 4/7/2017 at 5:51 AM, Limey_Bob said:

Well said, in fact that is obvious, the idea of disincarnate spirits (souls) reigning with fully human people, both the lost and saved upon this earth during some 1,000 years, when Christ is ruling from Jerusalem as King, yet at the end of this period when Christ is here on this earth, there is a rebellion against him, oh come on, that's nonsense. So yes I agree with you, at the second coming eternity begins.

Shalom, again, Bob.

I should also mention that your whole string of scenarios is, in your word, "nonsense."

First, the resurrection is the re-creation and re-animation of our bodies, the re-creation and re-animation of US, since we ARE our bodies!

We don't "go to heaven when we die." That's fiction. We anticipate and await a RESURRECTION! The Lord Yeshua`, the Messiah to be King, shall return and begin His Kingdom rather small, just Israel, at first. Then, after the sheep/goats judgment - a war tribunal - He will broaden His Kingdom with vassal states - the sheep nations. Then, He spends the next 1000 years subduing His enemies and making them vassal states, as well.

Psalm 2 is a perfect example of what is to come during the Millennium:

Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD (YHWH), and against his Anointed, saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord (Adonai) shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD (YHWH) hath said unto me, "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."'
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD (YHWH) with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

KJV

These "kings of the earth" are holding a secret UN meeting! They are trying to muster a consensus to throw off the "bands" and "cords" ("chains" and "ropes") by which the Messiah Yeshua` (the "Anointed") and His Father (YHWH) have bound them.

God the Father interrupts their UN meeting with a LAUGH! The Messiah Yeshua` TEASES them, MOCKING them! "'Let's throw their chains and ropes off us.' Oh, boo-hoo!"

Then, God the Father gets angry and warns them not to persist, informing them in no uncertain terms that it was HE who established His Son - His Anointed One - as King of Kings!

When haSatan (Hebrew for "the Enemy") is loosed from the pit, he goes out and convinces these nations (the goat nations) to take a stand against God and His Anointed! They are defeated in Rev. 20:7-10, and THEN comes the final judgment, the Great White Throne Judgment.

ALL OF THIS HAPPENS AFTER THE RETURN OF THE MESSIAH YESHUA`!

It's not until after the GWTJ that the New Jerusalem descends to a newly re-created earth, the New Earth, and it is THEN that we read,

Revelation 21:1-4
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

[Kindle]

Remember this thread is for people to give scriptures and commentary to prove the Post Tribe Rapture.

[BobRyan]

On 5/13/2003 at 8:44 AM, George said:

Hello brothers and sisters,

 

Since the forums got a little jumbled, I decided to go ahead and start a few new threads. This thread is the defense of the post-trib rapture theological position.

 

Why do you believe in a post trib rapture?

 

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

 

George

1. Because Matthew 24 says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.. he will send forth His angels to gather His elect"

2. Because 1 Peter 1 says to fix our hope "completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" --- 2nd coming

3. Because the "dead in Christ rise FIRST" in 1 Thess 4 -- which means they are the "blessed and holy ones" raised up in the Rev 20:4-5 "First Resurrection" over whom the "second death has no power"

4. Because the 2nd coming is when Jesus "comes again" to receive His saints - and John 14:1-3 "I will come again and receive you to myself" is the focus of the entire Christian church - the 2nd coming.

[BobRyan]

On 5/13/2003 at 8:44 AM, George said:

Hello brothers and sisters,

 

Since the forums got a little jumbled, I decided to go ahead and start a few new threads. This thread is the defense of the post-trib rapture theological position.

 

Why do you believe in a post trib rapture?

 

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

 

George

yes - post-trib, post-wrath rapture - takes place at the Rev 19 second coming.

I started another thread "post-trib, post-wrath" in case threads like this are "post-trib, pre-wrath".

 

So then if this is really post-trib and post-wrath then my argument is this - as stated on that other thread --

 

Matthew 24

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24

More detail - same chapter.

²⁹ “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

1 Thess 4

⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

[BobRyan]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I have to laugh a little but just a little. Every pretrib passage? There are none!

There is "the rub" as they say.

 

Post trib - "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" -- Matthew 24

 

So we HAVE the text for post-trib. And nothing of the sort for pre-trib. And yet the pre-trib argument tries out endless arguments to dismiss the text that actually tells us it is post-trib will injecting massive 'proof-by-inference' everywhere else it can to try to inject pre-trib into the Bible.

Even in Revelation - the "FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 is at the Rev 19 SECOND COMING event. And "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1 Thess 4 ... it is they alone who are the "blessed and holy" in Rev 20:4-5 FIRST resurrection "over THESE the 2nd death has no power".

[Marilyn C]

On ‎11‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 11:44 PM, BobRyan said:

There is "the rub" as they say.

 

Post trib - "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" -- Matthew 24

 

So we HAVE the text for post-trib.

Hi Bob,

Again we realise that God also calls Israel His elect.

` For Jacob my servant`s sake, and Israel my ELECT.` (Isa. 45: 4)

So as the Body of Christ revelation was NOT given in the time of the `gospels` the elect` obviously refers to Israel, to whom the Lord was speaking.

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

On 6/13/2017 at 9:29 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Bob,

Again we realise that God also calls Israel His elect.

` For Jacob my servant`s sake, and Israel my ELECT.` (Isa. 45: 4)

So as the Body of Christ revelation was NOT given in the time of the `gospels` the elect` obviously refers to Israel, to whom the Lord was speaking.

Marilyn.

Ah! Like a breath of fresh air - some common sense on the "elect."  I could not have said it better. It seems so many will not believe Daniel: that the 70th week is for HIS people.

[iamlamad]

On 6/11/2017 at 8:44 AM, BobRyan said:

There is "the rub" as they say.

 

Post trib - "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" -- Matthew 24

 

So we HAVE the text for post-trib. And nothing of the sort for pre-trib. And yet the pre-trib argument tries out endless arguments to dismiss the text that actually tells us it is post-trib will injecting massive 'proof-by-inference' everywhere else it can to try to inject pre-trib into the Bible.

Even in Revelation - the "FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 is at the Rev 19 SECOND COMING event. And "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1 Thess 4 ... it is they alone who are the "blessed and holy" in Rev 20:4-5 FIRST resurrection "over THESE the 2nd death has no power".

Remember, Bob, anyone can make the bible say anything they want to fit a theory:

Matthew 27:5
And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

You can quote this verse in Matthew until the cows come home, but if you wish for anyone to believe it is about Paul's rapture, you will have to prove that be scripture. Your theory is as if God can never, and will never have any other gathering!

What kind of exegesis is it to just find the same word in two different verses and then declare they are about the same thing, ONLY because they use the same word?  I liken this to the posttrib / prewrath group and especially Rosenthal and Van Kampen - the first two prewrathers - who read about the signs in the sun and moon in Joel 2, and then in Matthew 24 and declared them the SAME SIGN, when a good exegesis will prove that theory impossible. Sure, they both mention the sun and moon and "sign" but that is about as close as they get to being the same.

I challenge you to look up the Greek word translated as "first" [resurrection] in REv. 20, and see how that same word has been translated in other scriptures.

Ask yourself: HOW MANY resurrections does John talk about in chapter 20? Which one would Jesus' resurrection fit? In other words, IF there is a limited number of resurrections for all, then Jesus' own resurrection must fit in one of them. Tell us which one.

[BobRyan]

Post trib - "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" -- Matthew 24

So we HAVE the text for post-trib. And nothing of the sort for pre-trib. And yet the pre-trib argument tries out endless arguments to dismiss the text that actually tells us it is post-trib will injecting massive 'proof-by-inference' everywhere else it can to try to inject pre-trib into the Bible.

Even in Revelation - the "FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 is at the Rev 19 SECOND COMING event. And "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1 Thess 4 ... it is they alone who are the "blessed and holy" in Rev 20:4-5 FIRST resurrection "over THESE the 2nd death has no power".

 

On 6/15/2017 at 8:10 AM, iamlamad said:

Remember, Bob, anyone can make the bible say anything they want to fit a theory:

Matthew 27:5
And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

You can quote this verse in Matthew until the cows come home, but if you wish for anyone to believe it is about Paul's rapture,

 

Paul has the same Bible, the same rapture, the same Gospel as Christ.

But as for people choosing to ignore the Bible detail in Matt 24 -- I have no problem with the fact that each person has free will and can ignore whatever they wish.

Quote

you will have to prove that be scripture. Your theory is as if God can never, and will never have any other gathering!

 

Your speculation is that when asked about the future - the coming of Christ and our gathering together to Him - Christ "forgot about the saints"??

Seriously? This is specualtion that should be "compelling"??

Contrast that to John 14:1-3 "I will come again and receive you to myself" -- instead "forgetting" about the saints - Christ is focused on that event.

Contrast as well to 1 Peter 1 "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to  you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:13 - instead of forgetting about the rapture of the saints at the second coming - it is the entire focus of the NT church.

Recall that nobody... nobody alive in Matthew's day would be going to heaven at the rapture in the first century A.D. So if as some speculate Christ completely forgot about the saints in Matthew 24... it would be a message not even useful to any of his hearers.

"Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" -- Matthew 24

Quote

What kind of exegesis is it to just find the same word in two different verses and then declare they are about the same thing,

It is key to exegesis to see how the same subject is treated in other parts of the Bible.

 

Quote

I challenge you to look up the Greek word translated as "first" [resurrection] in REv. 20, and see how that same word has been translated in other scriptures.

hint: The term "first resurrection" is used only once in the Bible. As for the term "Immediately AFTER the great tribulation" -- that two - is pretty specific.

Quote

Ask yourself: HOW MANY resurrections does John talk about in chapter 20?

Two - a first and a second. Also the same in John 5 two resurrections.

Quote

Which one would Jesus' resurrection fit?

John describes the 7 last plagues in Rev 16, the second coming in Rev 19 and the "First resurrection" at that Rev 19 second coming event in Rev 20. Turns out Christ had already been raised so John saw no future event where Christ is raised at the second coming.

Staying with the obvious at this point.

in Christ,

Bob