No Holy Spirit in the Great Tribulation, the sealing and assignment of 144k Hebrew and 2 Witnesses means church era is over.

[R. Hartono]

On 9/27/2021 at 2:23 PM, Faith-Not-Fear said:

I agree with you. I have always heard it taught that the Holy Spirit will be taken away with the rapture.

But here's a controversial question in which I have heard 2 answers and am confused about. Are only the 144,000 sealed? If so, does that mean that the tribulation saints will be hurt along with everyone else by the locusts in Revelation 9:1-11?

Rev 13:10 says about the fate of believers during antichrist government : Those that lead into captivity, into captivity shall they go, those that kill with the sword, by sword shall they be killed.

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by R. Hartono

[Justin Adams]

On 1/13/2022 at 10:12 PM, R. Hartono said:

God will serve the world left behind with wormwood coffee in the great tribulation. 

Another grand mistake from dispensational stuff. Read scripture AS WRITTEN.

[Justin Adams]

The OP is actually incorrect.

[R. Hartono]

On 9/17/2021 at 1:12 PM, Marilyn C said:

God is omnipresent, (present everywhere) thus the Holy Spirit is still active on the earth during the tribulation.

Marilyn.

God is omnipresent yes but Holy Spirit was not sent to the world until Pentecost Day.

After the rapture of the church (the great multitude of Rev 7) the world will return to OT prophets style like the time of Ezekiel. 

Angels will be sealing the Hebrew because Holy Spirit duty is over and taken back with the harvested church.

Edited January 21, 2022 by R. Hartono

[Marilyn C]

On 1/21/2022 at 10:56 AM, R. Hartono said:

God is omnipresent yes but Holy Spirit was not sent to the world until Pentecost Day.

After the rapture of the church (the great multitude of Rev 7) the world will return to OT prophets style like the time of Ezekiel. 

Angels will be sealing the Hebrew because Holy Spirit duty is over and taken back with the harvested church.

`In the beginning......And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters...` (Gen. 1: 1 & 2)

[R. Hartono]

On 2/4/2022 at 5:02 AM, Marilyn C said:

`In the beginning......And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters...` (Gen. 1: 1 & 2)

There was no Jesus and Holy Spirit in the OT era.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one but Jesus was not manifested until Mary birthed Him.

Holy Spirit is God Himself but was not sent to the church until Jesus finished His work of Salvation. And at the fullness of gentiles when their chance is over Holy Spirit and the church shall be removed, the world then return to the OT style where the Fierce Hands of Old Yah will return to smite this world in the Great Tribulation .

Edited February 5, 2022 by R. Hartono

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

There was no Jesus and Holy Spirit in the OT era.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one but Jesus was not manifested until Mary birthed Him.

Holy Spirit is God Himself but was not sent to the church until Jesus finished His work of Salvation. And at the fullness of gentiles when their chance is over Holy Spirit and the church shall be removed, the world then return to the OT style where the Fierce Hands of Old Yah will return to smite this world in the Great Tribulation .

That is against Christian belief and not for discussion here but in the relevant area - the non-conformist area.

[Last Daze]

On 9/16/2021 at 11:46 PM, R. Hartono said:

How about the church ? Will the bride of Christ be given to the beast to be beaten black and blue before the wedding ? Never, because Holy Spirit abide with the church forever :

Is a servant greater than his master?  If they persecuted Jesus won't they persecute his followers as well?  The whole "beaten up bride" argument is ridiculous, empty rhetoric that proves nothing and is contrary to scripture.

The church, the bride of Christ, is comprised of both OT saints and NT saints as is seen in the New Jerusalem.

• Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, full of the seven last plagues, came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”  And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.  Rev 21:9-10.

The angel clearly establishes the New Jerusalem as the bride of Christ.  And what makes up this city?

• It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on the gates, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.  There were three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.  And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21:12-14

Both OT and NT saints.  That's the "church age".

[Spiros]

On 9/17/2021 at 12:46 AM, R. Hartono said:

2 Thes 2: ⁷ For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the One who now holds it back will continue to do so till He is taken out of the way.⁸ And then the lawless one will be revealed............

Paul wrote about Holy Spirit will be taken back to God so the unbelieving world may be ruled and be deceived by the lawless beast when God's patience is finished : 2 Thes 2 ¹¹ For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the LIES ¹² and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

How about the church ? Will the bride of Christ be given to the beast to be beaten black and blue before the wedding ? Never, because Holy Spirit abide with the church forever :

John 14 ¹⁶ And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever.

Therefore the taking back of the Holy Spirit means the end of the church age being raptured to heaven as the great multitude before the throne.

The sealing of the 144000 literal Hebrew is not of Holy Spirit, it is Angel's sealing, as happened in the life of Ezekiel where God marked the true Hebrew to avoid them from the annihilation by God's judgment : Ezekiel 9:4 The Lord said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst.”

Angel (not the Holy Spirit) done the sealing : Rev 7 ² Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: ³ “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

Holy Spirit is the seal for redemption, Ephesian 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God of whom you have been sealed for the day of redemption.

But why angel's sealing ? Because Holy Spirit has been taken back with the church  presented as the Harvest to God. THE CHURCH WAS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND ON EARTH OTHERWISE THEY WILL BE SEALED BY ANGEL AS WELL FOR PROTECTION BUT THE CHURCH ERA IS OVER AND DOESNT NEED THIS.

The early church of apostles have believed in Jesus before the downpour of Holy Spirit on that Pentecost Day, the absence of Holy Spirit doesnt prevent people from believing the Salvation news. Holy Spirit purpose is to replace Jesus to build up the church around the world with 9 Gifts of Holy Spirit, but there will be no church in great tribulation it will be banned and destroyed.

The sealing of the 144000 Hebrew by angel means the church ministry era has ended and God is back to deal with the Hebrew and returns the mandate of Salvation news to the Hebrew like the OT history, God also appoint the two witnesses of Revelation probably Moses and Elijah to lead the 144000 and they will carry on the good news of Jesus salvation to the world with fierce hands in the middle of horror  annihilation of mankind, just like Ezekiel's old time.

In the last two thousand years of church ministry works in the world, many christians have been martyred or persecuted. The reason for this is that God is still giving this world the chance to repent despite of their treacherous bloody attitude. But in the great tribulation God will torment the unbelieving world via the two witnesses, not via the church as its role is over.

Rev 11 ⁵ If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. ⁶ They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. 9...because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/259294-the-fullness-of-gentiles-god-will-return-the-mandate-of-salvation-to-the-hebrew-144000-n-the-2-ot-witnesses/?tab=comments#comment-3298430

 

 

 

Hello R. Hartono,

 

The 144 thousand, 12 K from each tribe of Israel. Some have found it strange that Apostle John uses a different set of names for the 12 tribes in relation to the Old Testament. I believe the reason for this is to encoded information using isopsephy/gematria.

 

To understand the end of times plan as revealed in Revelation we must note the use of the decadic(10) system and the dodecadic(12) system. The use of these numbers 10 and 12. According to Wikipedia:

 

Quote

Twelve. Reflects the 12 lunar months in a lunar year and refers to completeness, often associated with the people of God. There are twelve tribes of Israel and Jesus made the decision to have twelve apostles.

 

Quote

Four and ten. Can be used to signify totality. There are ten fingers and ten toes, the total number of digits found on humans, thus our Base 10 numerical system.

 

Let’s thus add up the Greek isopsephy names of the 12 tribes of Israel as they appear in Revelation:

 

Judas + Reuben + Gad + Asher + Nefthaleim + Manasses + Symeon + Levi + Issachar + Zebulon + Joseph + Benjamin

 

ΙΟΥΔΑΣ + ΡΟΥΒΗΝ + ΓΑΔ + ΑΣΗΡ + ΝΕΦΘΑΛΕΙΜ + ΜΑΝΑΣΣΗΣ + ΣΥΜΕΩΝ + ΛΕΥΙ + ΙΣΑΧΑΡ + ΖΑΒΟΥΛΩΝ + ΙΩΣΗΦ + ΒΕΝΙΑΜΙΝ = (10+70+400+4+1+200) + (100+70+400+2+8+50) + (3+1+4) + (1+200+8+100) + (50+5+500+9+1+30+5+10+40) + (40+1+50+1+200+200+8+200) + (200+400+40+5+800+50) + (30+5+400+10) + (10+200+1+600+1+100)  + (7+1+2+70+400+30+800+50) + (10+800+200+8+500) + (2+5+50+10+1+40+10+50) = 8880

 

We thus can easily see that using the decadic system, group of 10 we can divide by 10 and obtain the isopsephy value of the name Jesus as Iesous.

 

ΙΗΣΟΥΣ = 10+8+200+70+400+200 = 888 = 8880/10

 

Ten signifies totality.

 

But if we use the 12 number we can compute the average isopsephy value of the names of the twelve tribes simply by dividing the sum by 12.

 

8880/12 = 740

 

This is the isopsephy value in Greek of words like circle(kyklos), torus(toros), pentagram(pentagrammon), and isosceles. But it is also the value of the name Demetrios.

 

ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ = 4+8+40+8+300+100+10+70+200 = 740

ΚΥΚΛΟΣ = 20+400+20+30+70+200 = 740

 

According to Wikipedia:

 

Quote

Saint Demetrius (or Demetrios) of Thessaloniki, was a Christian martyr of the early 4th century AD. During the Middle Ages, he came to be revered as one of the most important Orthodox military saints, often paired with Saint George of Lydda. His feast day is 26 October for Eastern Orthodox Christians. In the Roman Catholic church he is most commonly called "Demetrius of Sermium" and his memorial falls on 8 October. 

 

October in the Roman calendar was the 8th month of the year. We thus have the numbers 8 and 26 showing up here. According to Wikipedia:

 

Quote

Eight. Is sometimes used to refer to a "new life," "resurrection," or a new beginning. There are eight people on Noah's ark (2 Pet. 2:5), circumcision takes place on the eighth day (Gen. 17:12), Jesus rose from the dead on the eighth day, the eight thousandth year represents the end (2 Enoch 33; Sibylline Oracles 1.280-81)

 

26 is the Hebrew gematria value of Jahoba as IEFE(יהוה) = 10+5+6+5 = 26

 

The date of October 26 is Sun rise orientation wise(azimuth) , the middle between the Fall equinox and the Winter Solstice. On Saint Demetrios day, the day that Saint Demetrios passed away, if one is stationed at Giza, Egypt he would see the Sun rise at the direction of the Khafre pyramid causeway. The azimuth is thus roughly 103.5 degrees. Demetrios derives his name from Greek goddess Demeter. According to Wikipedia:

 

Quote

In ancient Greek religion and mythology, Demeter is the Olympian goddess of the harvest and agriculture, presiding over grains and the fertility of the earth. 

 

The blessing thus of bread, wine, and oil relate to the relative gods of Demeter, Dionysus, and Athena.

 

Saint Demetrios was born in Thessaloniki and Thessaloniki has the same approximate latitude as Brooklyn New York. It is not strange that a large number of Jews lived in Thessaloniki in the past.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Thessaloniki

 

The size of the New Jerusalem – Mount Zion cube is 1,889,869 meters.

If we equate the volume of the “New Thessaloniki” cube(square side width of 3,044,769 m) to that of a sphere, then the radius of the sphere is 1,888,824 meters.  Thus New Thessaloniki geometrically relates to New Jerusalem just like New York geometrically relates to New Jerusalem.

 

We thus are led to believe that Apostle John wrote Revelation in such a way as to relate the 12 tribes of Israel to the name of a Christian, the name of a Hellenic Saint.   

 

Best Regards

Spiros

Edited February 8, 2022 by Spiros

[R. Hartono]

8 hours ago, Spiros said:

Hello R. Hartono,

 

The 144 thousand, 12 K from each tribe of Israel. Some have found it strange that Apostle John uses a different set of names for the 12 tribes in relation to the Old Testament. I believe the reason for this is to encoded information using isopsephy/gematria.

 

To understand the end of times plan as revealed in Revelation we must note the use of the decadic(10) system and the dodecadic(12) system. The use of these numbers 10 and 12. According to Wikipedia:

 

 

 

Let’s thus add up the Greek isopsephy names of the 12 tribes of Israel as they appear in Revelation:

 

Judas + Reuben + Gad + Asher + Nefthaleim + Manasses + Symeon + Levi + Issachar + Zebulon + Joseph + Benjamin

 

ΙΟΥΔΑΣ + ΡΟΥΒΗΝ + ΓΑΔ + ΑΣΗΡ + ΝΕΦΘΑΛΕΙΜ + ΜΑΝΑΣΣΗΣ + ΣΥΜΕΩΝ + ΛΕΥΙ + ΙΣΑΧΑΡ + ΖΑΒΟΥΛΩΝ + ΙΩΣΗΦ + ΒΕΝΙΑΜΙΝ = (10+70+400+4+1+200) + (100+70+400+2+8+50) + (3+1+4) + (1+200+8+100) + (50+5+500+9+1+30+5+10+40) + (40+1+50+1+200+200+8+200) + (200+400+40+5+800+50) + (30+5+400+10) + (10+200+1+600+1+100)  + (7+1+2+70+400+30+800+50) + (10+800+200+8+500) + (2+5+50+10+1+40+10+50) = 8880

 

We thus can easily see that using the decadic system, group of 10 we can divide by 10 and obtain the isopsephy value of the name Jesus as Iesous.

 

ΙΗΣΟΥΣ = 10+8+200+70+400+200 = 888 = 8880/10

 

Ten signifies totality.

 

But if we use the 12 number we can compute the average isopsephy value of the names of the twelve tribes simply by dividing the sum by 12.

 

8880/12 = 740

 

This is the isopsephy value in Greek of words like circle(kyklos), torus(toros), pentagram(pentagrammon), and isosceles. But it is also the value of the name Demetrios.

 

ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ = 4+8+40+8+300+100+10+70+200 = 740

ΚΥΚΛΟΣ = 20+400+20+30+70+200 = 740

 

According to Wikipedia:

 

 

October in the Roman calendar was the 8th month of the year. We thus have the numbers 8 and 26 showing up here. According to Wikipedia:

 

 

26 is the Hebrew gematria value of Jahoba as IEFE(יהוה) = 10+5+6+5 = 26

 

The date of October 26 is Sun rise orientation wise(azimuth) , the middle between the Fall equinox and the Winter Solstice. On Saint Demetrios day, the day that Saint Demetrios passed away, if one is stationed at Giza, Egypt he would see the Sun rise at the direction of the Khafre pyramid causeway. The azimuth is thus roughly 103.5 degrees. Demetrios derives his name from Greek goddess Demeter. According to Wikipedia:

 

 

The blessing thus of bread, wine, and oil relate to the relative gods of Demeter, Dionysus, and Athena.

 

Saint Demetrios was born in Thessaloniki and Thessaloniki has the same approximate latitude as Brooklyn New York. It is not strange that a large number of Jews lived in Thessaloniki in the past.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Thessaloniki

 

The size of the New Jerusalem – Mount Zion cube is 1,889,869 meters.

If we equate the volume of the “New Thessaloniki” cube(square side width of 3,044,769 m) to that of a sphere, then the radius of the sphere is 1,888,824 meters.  Thus New Thessaloniki geometrically relates to New Jerusalem just like New York geometrically relates to New Jerusalem.

 

We thus are led to believe that Apostle John wrote Revelation in such a way as to relate the 12 tribes of Israel to the name of a Christian, the name of a Hellenic Saint.   

 

Best Regards

Spiros

Imho spiritual christians do not belong to any Hebrew tribe.

In the great tribulation where the fullness of gentiles is reached God will return to the Hebrew and assign the testimony work of Salvation to them.