Two Days

[Keras]

1 Thessalonians 4:16  When the Command is given, when the Archangels voice is heard, when God’s Trumpet sounds, then the Lord Himself will descend from heaven...

This prophesies the glorious Return of Jesus to gather His faithful Christian peoples to where He is; in Jerusalem.  Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:17

 

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 About dates and times, my friends, there is no need to write to you. For you know perfectly well that the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

While other people are saying: Now we have peace and safety, then; sudden destruction will come upon them.... and there will be no escape.

 

Are these prophesies talking about the same event?  

The Book of Revelation is where we can find a sequence of the end times events.

In Revelation 6:12-17, the terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, by fire, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis is described, plus over 100 other prophesies also describe this Day of vengeance, His fury and anger against the nations.  The Lord is not seen on this Day. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4          BEFORE the Return!

 

The Day of the Lord’s fiery wrath, as the Son of Man, is the sudden, shocking and unexpected Day, a world changer, which will set the stage for the establishment of a One World Govt. Daniel 7:23-27, Revelation 13:1-8

The faithful Christian peoples, will pass safely through this literal Day of worldwide disaster. We are told what to do: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13

 

The Day of the Lord’s glorious Return; As the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Much has to happen before we get to Revelation 19:11-13, where Jesus is described as coming in garments already splashed in blood.  Got from His previous Day of  vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 63:1-6 and Revelation 14:17-20

It will NOT be unexpected; heralded by God and the angels and NOT a surprise, as He will Return exactly 1260 days, [42 months] after Satan desecrates the Temple. Daniel 9:27b, Revelation 13:5

 

Jesus destroys the attacking armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word and chains up Satan. He just separates the nations at this time. Matthew 25:31-33

Jesus then commences His thousand year earthly reign, on David’s Throne, in the new Temple in Jerusalem.  As Isaiah 65:18-25, Zechariah 14:16-21 describe.

 

 Conclusion: 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Thess 5:1-3 are about 2 separate Days, several years apart.  Paul; like the other Prophets, doesn’t put them into their correct sequence.

 

The final Judgment happens after the Millennium. Matthew 25:46, Revelation 20:11-15   Then comes Eternity      

 

[Willa]

I don't believe that they are the same day either.  But it is not something that our salvation depends on, so I don't make an issue of it.  It is wise to look for His coming and stay alert, whenever a person believes that will be.  

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, Keras said:

1 Thessalonians 4:16  When the Command is given, when the Archangels voice is heard, when God’s Trumpet sounds, then the Lord Himself will descend from heaven...

This prophesies the glorious Return of Jesus to gather His faithful Christian peoples to where He is; in Jerusalem.  Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:17

 

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 About dates and times, my friends, there is no need to write to you. For you know perfectly well that the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

While other people are saying: Now we have peace and safety, then; sudden destruction will come upon them.... and there will be no escape.

 

Are these prophesies talking about the same event?  

The Book of Revelation is where we can find a sequence of the end times events.

In Revelation 6:12-17, the terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, by fire, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis is described, plus over 100 other prophesies also describe this Day of vengeance, His fury and anger against the nations.  The Lord is not seen on this Day. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4          BEFORE the Return!

 

The Day of the Lord’s fiery wrath, as the Son of Man, is the sudden, shocking and unexpected Day, a world changer, which will set the stage for the establishment of a One World Govt. Daniel 7:23-27, Revelation 13:1-8

The faithful Christian peoples, will pass safely through this literal Day of worldwide disaster. We are told what to do: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13

 

The Day of the Lord’s glorious Return; As the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Much has to happen before we get to Revelation 19:11-13, where Jesus is described as coming in garments already splashed in blood.  Got from His previous Day of  vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 63:1-6 and Revelation 14:17-20

It will NOT be unexpected; heralded by God and the angels and NOT a surprise, as He will Return exactly 1260 days, [42 months] after Satan desecrates the Temple. Daniel 9:27b, Revelation 13:5

 

Jesus destroys the attacking armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word and chains up Satan. He just separates the nations at this time. Matthew 25:31-33

Jesus then commences His thousand year earthly reign, on David’s Throne, in the new Temple in Jerusalem.  As Isaiah 65:18-25, Zechariah 14:16-21 describe.

 

 Conclusion: 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Thess 5:1-3 are about 2 separate Days, several years apart.  Paul; like the other Prophets, doesn’t put them into their correct sequence.

 

The final Judgment happens after the Millennium. Matthew 25:46, Revelation 20:11-15   Then comes Eternity      

 

I read your article with interest. Here is the text and my comments after it:

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober

From verse 1 Paul corrects a false notion. He did not write the Thessalonians for nothing. The context is about Christians wondering if the dead had missed the rapture. Paul was in Thessaloniki for only 3 weeks and could not possible had taught all the truths of the New New Testament thoroughly. So after the death of some of the saints, the question arose as to whether the dead would now miss the rapture (for all raptures are for living men). Paul assures tha Thessalonians that "the dead will not suffer any disadvantage in the rapture". The are to be raised from Hades, meet a new body on the surface of the earth (as Christ did) and "together" with the living saints, be "caught away" (lit. Gk.) to the air where there are clouds (the Troposhere). This would "comfort" the saints whose brothers and sister in the Lord had died before the rapture.

Verse 1 begins witha "But". In this case the word "but" is a conjunction. The Greek means "even so". The word then CONNECTS the thief coming with being "caught away" suddenly. A thief (i) comes stealthily, (ii) does not announce the day of the robbery, (iii) remains in hidden places before and after the crime, and (iv) only comes fro something PRECIOUS. But it is not the Lord Himself Who is the Thief. It is His "DAY". According to 2nd Peter 1:20 we may not interpret scripture privately. Therefore, to decide what the "day" means, we must use scripture itself. If we study then the various "days" of the Bible, we discover that there are FIVE different "days". (i) the period of sunlight, (ii) 24 hours from the evening to the next evening, (iii) a time when a man, a nation or when God can claim a certain time as his for better or for worse, (iv) a day in prophecy is equal to a year, and (v) a "day" for God is the same as a thousand years and vice verse. What "day" could we apply here. Perhaps, since it speaks of the coming of the Lord, Luke 17:24 is the way to go;

²⁴  For as the lightning shines which lightens from one end under heaven to the other end under heaven, thus shall the Son of man be in his day.

Now Matthew 24:28-30 gives the same event as Luke 17:24 - that is, the coming of our Lord Jesus like lightening - not like a thief. And the Lord, sets in motion a series of events with His coming. He fights a battle at Armageddon. He settles a score at Bozrah in Edom, He sends His angels to gather Israel who are in dispersion to "the four winds", He judges Israel (Dan.12:2). He judges "all Nations who survive the Great Tribulation (Matt.25:31-46), He subdues any vestage of rebellion, and rules the nations with a rod of iron. The shear list of events make only one "day" viable. That is, the "day" of our Lord is the fifth day - one thousand years. The prophets of old mention "in that day" many times and often it has to do with Christ's glory after His return to Millennial glory. Luke says that the "LIGHT" of the lightening will last the whole "day". WE must ask ourselves; will Christ's "shining" ever abate? Is not Christ's Kingdom a Kingdom "in light"? (Col.1:12-13). Hosea 6:2 says that God's chastisement on Israel will last two days and then will come another day of renewal. Since AD 70, Israel's chastisement has continued  for 1950 years.

The only "day" that fits there is again 1,000 years. And if this is so, the "TIME" in which the Lord gets to do His will on earth starts with the Rapture and lasts until the White Throne - exactly 1,000 years - the time when Christ gets to subdue God's enemies woith a rule of the rod of iron - "THE Day of the Lord". But the passage above has a more important revelation. It asserts in no uncertain terms that a child of the light could sleep and be caught unawares. The word "therefore" in verse 6 is the summation of what went before. "He refused to wear his seatbelt THEREFORE he he was flung out of the rolling car and crushed under it". "The Christian did not watch and was caught in adultery, THEREFORE he may not enter the Kingdom of God" (Gal.5:21, Eph. 5:5). The passage above is to BOTH COMFORT and ADMONISHMENT to the Christian that whereas the resurrection and rapture is a COMFORT for the Thessalonians who were distraught with the death of their fellow brothers and sister in the Lord, IT CAN BE MISSED!!! A Thief only comes for what is VALUABLE! Paul thought so too. In Philippians 3:7-14 I quote the New King James because they corrected the translation. It reads;

⁷ But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. ⁸ Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ ⁹ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; ¹⁰ that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, ¹¹ if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. ¹² Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. ¹³ Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, ¹⁴ I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

The word resurrection used by Paul appears just this once in the Greek. It is literally the "Resurrection of resurrections", or "the OUT-resurrection" - a resurrection out of the resurrection. And Paul says that we must "ATTAIN" to it. Paul was three years from his martyrdom as he wrote this, and he counted himself as not being worthy yet for this special resurrection. And as if this is not enough, what about the rapture? Is there a special rapture? Our text above GUARANTEES a Rapture, but here Paul says there is a Rapture THAT IS A PRIZE!!!

This is the grand revelation of 1st Thessalonians. It is this; "CHRISTIAN, DON'T BE COMPLACENT!!! THERE IS A RESURRECTION AND A RAPTURE GUARANTEED. BUT PART OF IT IS SPECIAL. YOU MUST BE WORTHY OF IT AND IT IS A PRIZE! The martyrs of Revelation 20 called it "the first resurrection". The word "first" can mean first in time, but it also means FIRST IN IMPORTANCE OR RANK!!!"

Are you ready oh Christian??? Paul wasn't so sure. I'll tell my secret. I am not at all sure.

 

[Keras]

Thank you, AdHoc, for your reply. 

We do see things differently.  I hold to the truth of the general sequence of events in Revelation:

Jesus Ascends to heaven; He opens the first five Seals.  Proved by all the wars, famines and plagues, and the martyrs since Stephen.       So the Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event we can expect. The one that 'comes as a thief'. We are told what the Lord will use to literally fulfill this one day, worldwide disaster. Isaiah 30:26a, Malachi 4:1     It will change the world and enable a one World Govt to be established. 

THAT is when Jesus gets His robe splashed in blood, Isaiah 63:1-6, and about 10-15 years later, [just a half hour in heaven, Rev 8:1] He will Return in glory.  He will gather His faithful people from every tribe, race nation and language, to where He is.                            A transportation thru our atmosphere from around the world to Jerusalem. Where we Christians will be His priests and co-rulers. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:9-10  Along with the resurrected martyrs; Revelation 20:4, for the Millennium. 

[angels4u]

8 minutes ago, Keras said:

Thank you, AdHoc, for your reply. 

We do see things differently.  I hold to the truth of the general sequence of events in Revelation:

Jesus Ascends to heaven; He opens the first five Seals.  Proved by all the wars, famines and plagues, and the martyrs since Stephen.       So the Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event we can expect. The one that 'comes as a thief'. We are told what the Lord will use to literally fulfill this one day, worldwide disaster. Isaiah 30:26a, Malachi 4:1     It will change the world and enable a one World Govt to be established. 

THAT is when Jesus gets His robe splashed in blood, Isaiah 63:1-6, and about 10-15 years later, [just a half hour in heaven, Rev 8:1] He will Return in glory.  He will gather His faithful people from every tribe, race nation and language, to where He is.                            A transportation thru our atmosphere from around the world to Jerusalem. Where we Christians will be His priests and co-rulers. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:9-10  Along with the resurrected martyrs; Revelation 20:4, for the Millennium. 

Do you believe the first 5 seals have been opened? I believe Jesus is about to open the first seal..

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, angels4u said:

Do you believe the first 5 seals have been opened? I believe Jesus is about to open the first seal..

I agree with you. First the rapture of the Church then the seals. 

[R. Hartono]

3 hours ago, Keras said:

Thank you, AdHoc, for your reply. 

We do see things differently.  I hold to the truth of the general sequence of events in Revelation:

Jesus Ascends to heaven; He opens the first five Seals.  Proved by all the wars, famines and plagues, and the martyrs since Stephen.       So the Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event we can expect. The one that 'comes as a thief'. We are told what the Lord will use to literally fulfill this one day, worldwide disaster. Isaiah 30:26a, Malachi 4:1     It will change the world and enable a one World Govt to be established. 

THAT is when Jesus gets His robe splashed in blood, Isaiah 63:1-6, and about 10-15 years later, [just a half hour in heaven, Rev 8:1] He will Return in glory.  He will gather His faithful people from every tribe, race nation and language, to where He is.                            A transportation thru our atmosphere from around the world to Jerusalem. Where we Christians will be His priests and co-rulers. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:9-10  Along with the resurrected martyrs; Revelation 20:4, for the Millennium. 

Shalom Keras,

Wars, famines, plagues happened since ancient Times when Joseph ruled Egypt n after the Hebrew escaped from Egypt, murder happened since Abel was killed.

So Imho:

 

 

[Keras]

On 11/16/2021 at 9:18 AM, angels4u said:

Do you believe the first 5 seals have been opened? I believe Jesus is about to open the first seal..

That Jesus did open the first five Seals, is proved by all the terrible wars, the shocking famines, the devastating plagues and the economic disasters we have experienced thru this age.  For any of them to have much worse, mankind would not have survived. 

But the Fifth Seal clinches it; All the Christian martyrs since Stephen and still being added to today, have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven. 

The Sixth Seal is what Jesus warned us about in Matthew 24:37-41. It is the prophesied event that comes as a thief.   To think coming as a thief, refers to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign, is somewhat ludicrous and unscriptural, as 1 Thess 4:16 says: it will be heralded by God and the angels.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Keras

[AdHoc]

On 11/15/2021 at 9:10 PM, Keras said:

Thank you, AdHoc, for your reply. 

We do see things differently.  I hold to the truth of the general sequence of events in Revelation:

Jesus Ascends to heaven; He opens the first five Seals.  Proved by all the wars, famines and plagues, and the martyrs since Stephen.       So the Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event we can expect. The one that 'comes as a thief'. We are told what the Lord will use to literally fulfill this one day, worldwide disaster. Isaiah 30:26a, Malachi 4:1     It will change the world and enable a one World Govt to be established. 

THAT is when Jesus gets His robe splashed in blood, Isaiah 63:1-6, and about 10-15 years later, [just a half hour in heaven, Rev 8:1] He will Return in glory.  He will gather His faithful people from every tribe, race nation and language, to where He is.                            A transportation thru our atmosphere from around the world to Jerusalem. Where we Christians will be His priests and co-rulers. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:9-10  Along with the resurrected martyrs; Revelation 20:4, for the Millennium. 

Thank you for your answer. I appreciate your point of view. Looking back on the history of the earth since our Lord Jesus is very powerful evidence that the Seals have been opened. But what if the Abomination of Desolation so angers the Father that He has prepared a SPECIAL set of trials for men for the Great Tribulation? We'll only know when that is history. But I would like to take up your point about Revelation being sequential. 

Chapter 1 finds John on Patmos. Scholars are divided on what year it was written, the bulk believing in 95 or 96 AD. Let us not stumble on this point, for it is not crucial in our discussion. What is crucial is that John writes what our Lord says to seven existing Churches and commands that each letter be sent to ALL seven Churches. That is, the Lord wants every Church to know if the other's problems. Now, these Churches do not exist today, but to the last four Churches in their sequence, our Lord Jesus promises His return to find them in an unacceptable state. This in turn gives us a problem. Either the Lord got the facts wrong, or He has weighted the CONDITION of the Church IN HISTORY. Simply put, the Church at Laodicea is weighed in the matter of the Church's condition at His return. So also the other three.

The historic value of the last four Churches is not to peg the years when this Church became apostate, but to show that UNTIL Christ's coming, these problems would persist. And if you've been around Christian circles for any while, you will have seen, for instance, all the problems that beset the saints in Corinth STILL BESETTING TODAY'S ASSEMBLIES. That is, the grand thrust of the New Testament, especially the Letters, is that it is written especially for the "last days" when apostasy will be rife.

Even more crucial is the fact that after Laodicea in Chapter 3, the Church as such, either as the universal Church or as Local Assemblies, is never mentioned again. Individual believers YES - the "Ekklesia" NO. There can be only one explanation for this. The Church is missing, or damaged beyond calling it an Assembly. Now, in your answer above, they Church features, but you would be hard-pressed to find it in the rest of Revelation. And this leads me to my point about sequence. The SEQUENCE is still given!

Clearly written in the original texts is Chapter 4 verse 1;  

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Now, the word "hereafter" implies TWO things that cannot be explained away. There was a set of events before John was raptured to heaven, and there was a set of following events AFTER. Since we can ignore the division of Chapters in the original text, this sentence clearly says that Christ is at a point where the Church has locked Him out of their door, and "Laodicea" - "the opinion of the laity or people" rules. And what is written and shown next happens later. Thus, the earliest HISTORICAL value you can give Chapter 4 is when Christ has been fully rejected by the Churches (except Overcomers). You have chosen secular history to decide this, and while we both agree that prophecy turns into history sooner or later, secular history is not a good decider.

We both agree on sequence, but we part ways on how it is proven. Let me show an example. If Matthew 24:32 onward is about a "Thief" who takes one servant and leaves another, and the HOUSE is broken up by it, we have very little room to explain this. There are too many pointers. The Lord starts with a parable. According to our Lord's own words in Matthew 13, He speaks parables for the Church's understanding. That is, while the Fig Tree obviously speaks for Judah, its mention in Parable is the Lord speaking to the Church. Then, Israel's unbelief remains until the fullness of the Gentiles (Rom.11). So the Jews cannot be meant. And the Nations have just been reported in this very passage as being occupied with the affairs of life and not the Lord's affairs. Thus the workers and servants must be Christians. This doubly proven because some of the servants are "watching" for the Thief. This is triple-proved by the good servant giving food to the other servants of the HOUSEHOLD. The "servants" are Christians and the House is the Church. And if this BROKEN UP by some being taken and some left, it cannot be called the Ekklesia any more. "Ekklesia" means "the GATHERING of the called out ones". This action by the Thief DIVIDES the House. This would be one powerful reason not to mention the Ekklesia again.

Anyway, nice swapping ideas with you.

[Keras]

Yes AdHoc, I do agree that the condition of the7 Church's is applicable to all the church throughout the age and now Laodicea is  is the predominant type. 

Revelation 12:6-17 is very enlightening about where the Christians are during the final 3 1/2 years of this age.  We will be separated into 2 groups, one taken to safety, the other must remain.    Zechariah 14:1-2 and Daniel 11:32, also describe the two groups. 

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