The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, OneLight said:

Really?  God allows all kinds of unnecessary deaths every single day.  Why will this be any different?

I hear what you are saying, however that is not God `caused.` If people were killed from planes dropping from the sky etc then that would be because God took the Christian pilot without warning Him of the danger involved for people on his flight. 

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Bawb said:

When you state this do you consider all saints as only Gentile Christians? Or are Jewish Messianic Believers in Yehsua also factored in your belief? Both are all over the world as well as in Israel...

Saints in the OT were of Israel and Gentiles.

Saints in the Body of Christ are both Jews and Gentiles.

Saints in the trib, are also of Israel and of the Gentile nations.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

Hi Marilyn,

Could you elaborate on this? I'd like to see more scriptures supporting it.

Thank you Uriah,

Those of the great multitude that no one can count, that come out of the great trib,(Rev. 7: 9 - 17) are OF the nations. They are not `called OUT of the nations as the Body of Christ is. Also they have Palm branches in their hands which typify that they will be in the time of God Tabernacling with man, by His Holy Spirit in the NHNE. (Rev. 21: 1 & 2)

The people of Israel used to make booths, (tabernacles) on their Feast day, to remind them that God was dwelling, (tabernacling with them) in the wilderness. The fulfillment of that feast is the NHNE. 

Those who overcame the A/C and were martyred sing the song of Moses. (Rev. 15: 1 - 4) This reveals that they are looking for the King of the nations, (v. 3) who will rule through Israel over the nations. 

[OneLight]

51 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

I hear what you are saying, however that is not God `caused.` If people were killed from planes dropping from the sky etc then that would be because God took the Christian pilot without warning Him of the danger involved for people on his flight. 

We can't have it both ways, Marilyn.  Either God is in control or He is not.  Just because someone doesn't understand the why behind an action doesn't mean the action was not a planned action.  How will you explain the judgments that follow where percentages of the whole worlds population is exterminated if you can't believe this simple fact that their time was up.

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, Bawb said:

I would think "what we view as unnecessary" would be a better way of stating this. Who are we to judge the will of GOD and say what was unnecessary? How do you know that He didn't take them out of the world for HIS purposes?

Good question for Marilyn as I was quoting from her post when I made this post. 

[The Light]

6 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke 21:25-28 "Clearly" teaches below, there will be no pre-trib rapture as dispensationalism falsely teaches

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

There's not even the slightest chance that the Church will be present on earth during the great tribulation. 

The Church is told "when these things BEGIN to come to pass, THEN lookup.

The Church is also told "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Then Jesus talks in a parable to those that will be in the great tribulation.

Luke 21

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

One group, the Church is told that when these things BEGIN TO COME PASS, we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass, AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

The other group, the 12 tribes across the earth are told.  when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

The false teaching is that there will not be a pretribulation rapture. There will be two raptures. Learn the parable of the fig tree.

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Bawb said:

I would think "what we view as unnecessary" would be a better way of stating this. Who are we to judge the will of GOD and say what was unnecessary? How do you know that He didn't take them out of the world for HIS purposes?

Shalom, Bawb.

It's important also to understand that God's WILL is not the same as His PLAN for time. We do have the Scripture that states:

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Thus, His WILL is that NO ONE should perish; however, in His PLAN, He has allowed for the sinfulness of human beings and the resultant deaths associated with sin.

Remember:

Isaiah 46:9-10 (KJV)

9 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure':"

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Thank you Uriah,

Those of the great multitude that no one can count, that come out of the great trib,(Rev. 7: 9 - 17) are OF the nations. They are not `called OUT of the nations as the Body of Christ is. Also they have Palm branches in their hands which typify that they will be in the time of God Tabernacling with man, by His Holy Spirit in the NHNE. (Rev. 21: 1 & 2)

The people of Israel used to make booths, (tabernacles) on their Feast day, to remind them that God was dwelling, (tabernacling with them) in the wilderness. The fulfillment of that feast is the NHNE. 

Those who overcame the A/C and were martyred sing the song of Moses. (Rev. 15: 1 - 4) This reveals that they are looking for the King of the nations, (v. 3) who will rule through Israel over the nations. 

Shalom, Marilyn.

You're right, but so shall those who call themselves "Christians." We ALL are looking for the King of the nations - the King of kings - who will rule through Israel over the nations. In the Messiah, there's no difference between the Jews and the Gentiles! Furthermore, the children of Israel have more of a right to the Messiah than do the Gentiles outside of the Messiah. As Paul put it, they are "the NATURAL branches" who are "graffed back into THEIR OWN Olive Tree!"

Don't divorce the two! People before the First Coming of our Lord are "saved" (justified by God) IN THE SAME WAY as those who came after the First Coming of our Lord, BY FAITH, just as did our Father Avraham!

God doesn't change the way in which He deals with human beings! We are ALL SINNERS, and as such, there's absolutely NO WAY that one can come to God and become righteous on his or her own merits! Thus, the Law, as Paul said, was merely our SCHOOL TEACHER to show us that we CANNOT merit God's grace on our own! We must ALL come to God humbly and ask for HIS intervention in our lives and give us His mercy! "It is GOD that justifieth!"

Isn't that what Yeshua` ("Jesus") taught to the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL?

Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 

10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee (Paruwsh = a Separatist), and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,

"'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.'

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,

"'God be merciful to me a sinner.'

14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Paul, writing to the Corinthians a second time, said,

2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV)

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ (of the Messiah, the One Anointed to be King of Israel whose job is to be the Kingdom's Supreme Court Judge); that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[Note: All judgment was committed to the Son, and He will judge the earth THROUGHOUT the Millennium (a thousand years plus, not just 7 years)!]

11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord (Yeshua`), we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ (the Messiah) after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ (in the Messiah), he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (God has traded places with us through Yeshua` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (exchanging places); 19 To wit, that God was in Christ (in the Messiah), reconciling the world unto himself (God Himself in the Messiah was trading places with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the message of trading places).

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ (for the Messiah), as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead (on the Messiah's behalf), be ye reconciled to God (trade places with God). 

21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (in the Messiah).

 

Also, you might also consider the REST of the story:

 

Revelation 15:3-4 (KJV)

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

Why do you insist on separating the two?

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Those of the great multitude that no one can count, that come out of the great trib,(Rev. 7: 9 - 17) are OF the nations. They are not `called OUT of the nations as the Body of Christ is. Also they have Palm branches in their hands which typify that they will be in the time of God Tabernacling with man, by His Holy Spirit in the NHNE. (Rev. 21: 1 & 2)

Marilyn

Ok, I think I got it now. This contradicts Rev 7:9-17. The ONLY place they are seen is before the throne of God and of the Lamb. To say that those believers who love not their lives even unto death have no part of what the Gospel (that they are believing) promises to the sons and daughters of God is...another gospel.

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The people of Israel used to make booths, (tabernacles) on their Feast day, to remind them that God was dwelling, (tabernacling with them) in the wilderness. The fulfillment of that feast is the NHNE.

My belief is that the booths (tabernacles) are fulfilled in the "mansions" prepared for us in New Jerusalem.

 

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Those who overcame the A/C and were martyred sing the song of Moses. (Rev. 15: 1 - 4) This reveals that they are looking for the King of the nations, (v. 3) who will rule through Israel over the nations. 

But Rev. 15:2 reveals that they are standing on the sea of glass, which is before the throne of God, in New Jerusalem.

 

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, OneLight said:

We can't have it both ways, Marilyn.  Either God is in control or He is not.  Just because someone doesn't understand the why behind an action doesn't mean the action was not a planned action.  How will you explain the judgments that follow where percentages of the whole worlds population is exterminated if you can't believe this simple fact that their time was up.

Hi OneLight,

The Judgments in the trib, are because God is judging the Gentile World System and all the rebellious, as He said He would. However amid those judgments God has His hand of mercy out to those who repent.

Now about the rapture time and so called planes falling out of the sky etc because the pilot was a believer, that is NOT a judgment on those who were in the plane, bus, train, car, or hit by those things. God reveals His judgments and they are not of them.