Translations.

[Starise]

11 hours ago, Mama Etna said:

Gnosticism is very bizarre.  I have encountered it on a number of websites.  Years ago there was one fellow I ran across that was in a gnostic cult of one. He said he found a sword in a river in Jerusalem with the peace sign welded at the tip making it useless as a weapon.  Everyone on the site thought he was ridiculous.

This brings up a good point. Many non christian beliefs will take portions of scripture and twist them to their own purposes which had nothing to do with the original intent. Gnostics are famous for doing this. They believe in all sorts of odd things depending on which group of them you listen to. In the case of  secret societies, they will take the bible and use parts of it while stating the beliefs that came before the bible are "secret knowledge" and make real Christians out to be ignorant of the 'real' truth.  They really think they have tapped into the ancient wisdom of the ages.

They think Christians are ignorant? We don't believe in an ancient race of tree people.

Many are blinded by these false groups both secretive and open who try to seem godly when they are really snakes who twist the truth into a lie they then try to sell it.

@MonicaWife is mainly talking about translations, but there are also dangerous paraphrases and revisions calling themselves bibles such as the Book Of Mormon.

[Ani Tefillah]

11 minutes ago, Starise said:

This brings up a good point. Many non christian beliefs will take portions of scripture and twist them to their own purposes which had nothing to do with the original intent. Gnostics are famous for doing this. They believe in all sorts of odd things depending on which group of them you listen to. In the case of  secret societies, they will take the bible and use parts of it while stating the beliefs that came before the bible are "secret knowledge" and make real Christians out to be ignorant of the 'real' truth.  They really think they have tapped into the ancient wisdom of the ages.

They think Christians are ignorant? We don't believe in an ancient race of tree people.

Many are blinded by these false groups both secretive and open who try to seem godly when they are really snakes who twist the truth into a lie they then try to sell it.

@MonicaWife is mainly talking about translations, but there are also dangerous paraphrases and revisions calling themselves bibles such as the Book Of Mormon.

That's so true and so sad 😔. 

I've study a little about what the mormons believe and why they act in certain ways, as we have a few here and there in Norway (mostly in towns, probably), whom are "missionaries" here, and I have run into some earlier. 

I remember an episode some years ago when we lived in a town, and I had the opportunity to testefy for two women from the USA. I testified how I got born again and baptized in the Holy Spirit with the speaking in new tongues as a sign, and one of them listened almost with her mouth open (😅), but the other one was occupied by how they could be able to come away from me. 

Two so different persons, but both so very valuable! My heart aches for them, the mormons, as many of them are sincere regarding their faith. I praise the Lord when I read a testimony of a ex-mormon, who has been saved and born again! 😊 

[Hobie_]

On 2/15/2022 at 8:40 PM, other one said:

the 1963 translation of the NASB is the closest word for word translation.   That is what I use to study most of the time.  The 1995 version uses some of the Alexandria manuscripts and takes it out of my personal acceptance.

What was the 1963 based on, as the NASB in my mind was using the Alexandrian manuscripts from the get go...  Here is a list maybe someone has a more complete one.. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations#Complete_Bibles

Edited March 28, 2022 by Hobie_

[other one]

8 hours ago, Hobie_ said:

What was the 1963 based on, as the NASB in my mind was using the Alexandrian manuscripts from the get go...  Here is a list maybe someone has a more complete one.. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations#Complete_Bibles

I am not sure....  I didn't think they got into the Alexandrian texts until the 1995 release.   That's when I first saw the John 3:16 change from might not perish to will no perish.    I can't trust any of them that use will no or shall not.

The version in my Bible program says should not....   I can't find which it is using.

[Dennis1209]

On 3/27/2022 at 7:17 PM, Starise said:

I was raised from childhood on the KJV and as an older man I began reading other versions. I downloaded the ESV for my reader and I have a nice bound version of the NIV.

While I read mostly other versions instead of KJV now, if I come across something I question I can mentally compare it to the KJV and sometimes this leads me into much deeper study.

In a recent study I was exposed to the text in John 10:34 

NIV- Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods"’?

ESV-Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

This was in response to the accusation against Jesus by Jewish religious leaders in asking Him to state clearly if He claimed to be the Son of God.

If we compare this text to Psalms 82:1

NIV- A psalm of Asaph. God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods":

ESV- God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

So what was Jesus really saying here? There are different views on this text. 

In the way I see it, Jesus was saying that He was a representative of God, even though He was God.

In the same way, the Pharisees were supposed to be representatives of God, but they hade severely failed the standard.

I think much of the true meaning has been lost in some of these translations.

Others would side with Michael Heiser is looking at Psalm 82:1 as a reference to a heavenly committee. One in which God sits. 

The text lends itself to much divine imagery, so even though correlation is given to John 10:34 it may not be the best fit for those two texts.

Gnostics will claim the that text makes us all gods.

So a translational question here would be to ask , what exactly is a god in the context of John 10:34 and in Psalm 82:1?\

If men are gods, then we surely need to render a different word in the understanding of most people today.

If there are satellite gods, then a deeper study needs to be done on them.

In my thinking the word god in this case probably needs at the least a better explanation in bible footnotes with accompanying references. 

And this is where cross reference and original texts/ideas are helpful.

 

Good morning Starise,

Without citing all the passages that might point to what Heiser calls a Divine Council, I think the Lord established law and government on earth. It is a pattern of a heavenly government. The Lord needs nothing; He utilizes an administration to carry out his will. It seems He allows input, responsibilities, and decision-making in His government.

Matthew 6:10 (KJV) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

In the Kingdom age, it seems there will be a government hierarchy; Jesus, King David, rulers over ten cities, five cities, etc.

What do you make of 1 Kings 22: 19-23 and the decision-making process there?

The following is probably controversial considering traditional teaching and understanding:

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [emphasis mine].

Who is God informing and speaking to in the above verse? Is it the Trinity speaking between themselves? Or could it be One God in Three Persons speaking to an audience on what He is about to do?

Is One of the Trinity making that decision and informing the other Two? Did one of the Trinity come up with the idea first when all three are omniscient? It is not to say we do not have examples of the Trinity speaking between themselves, and it is an example of the various hermeneutics people have.

In the cited verse, could it be the Lord is speaking to the bene Elohim or His council? Could there be any merit in that interpretation? I am not taking a position, only throwing this out for thought and comment.

[Starise]

32 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Without citing all the passages that might point to what Heiser calls a Divine Council, I think the Lord established law and government on earth. It is a pattern of a heavenly government. The Lord needs nothing; He utilizes an administration to carry out his will. It seems He allows input, responsibilities, and decision-making in His government.

Hi Dennis,

I'm not sure  government here on earth in any way resembles the government in heaven. I believe there is a command structure in heaven. I agree, God needs nothing, yet we have too many references that leads me to believe He prefers an accompanying oversight structure.

It is pretty clear that in the same way God allows humans to have responsibilities with expectations, there exists in heaven a structure where God entrusts his heavenly followers to carry out their ordained calling. The only clear resemblance I see from here has His heavenly host entrusted with positions same as us. It wasn't just any Joe Schmo angel called to duke it out with bad angels, it was Micheal. 

43 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

What do you make of 1 Kings 22: 19-23 and the decision-making process there?

In these verses I see that God already had an intent. He was simply asking his created beings for ways they might accomplish His pre ordained goals. I think it's great that God allows his beings to have input into His creation, don't you?

God was not obligated to:

-ask anything of anyone

-accept any of the suggestions made. It appears several made suggestions that were not noted here.

God can always know ahead, or already knew ahead about everything. To a God who can do anything, He chooses to sometimes ask His creations.

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [emphasis mine].

Who is God informing and speaking to in the above verse? Is it the Trinity speaking between themselves? Or could it be One God in Three Persons speaking to an audience on what He is about to do?

Is One of the Trinity making that decision and informing the other Two? Did one of the Trinity come up with the idea first when all three are omniscient? It is not to say we do not have examples of the Trinity speaking between themselves, and it is an example of the various hermeneutics people have.

In the cited verse, could it be the Lord is speaking to the bene Elohim or His council? Could there be any merit in that interpretation? I am not taking a position, only throwing this out for thought and comment.

Yes there are some passages in the bible we can never unread and this is one of those pivoting passages for many new Christians that often raises more questions than answers, especially for a believer who understood God to be one discrete being. Were they right. Yes and no.

God calls Husband and wife one flesh through marriage, yet they are distinct creations. Apparently God consists from the same stuff the other "US" is made of, or similar because US is more than one and they all have the same "image". This US appears to be in the same group together. This has been argued as the trinity or Father, Son and Holy Ghost. If this is true, then they all have the same "image" which man was patterned off of. A group of one? Jesus claimed to be both God and the Son of God, more accurately referred to as the Son Of Man in the Bible. Jesus deferred to God in all things. Remember the Garden of Gethsemane ? " Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me, nevertheless not my will but thy will be done". He requested this more than one time. A unified being would not question itself as two beings, so I see Jesus as fully God"head" and fully human at the same time. Jesus sits at the right hand of God. An independent part of God if you will, but still God. Jesus is the part of God that intercesses for us through prayer to God Almighty.

It isn't the trinity here that seems to be in question but were there others as well? I believe there are probably others. They aren't God, but they might come from the same group. When God is worshipped by men it is clearly a singular worship. God gets all the glory. The 'others' we will have to learn about later.

Christianity is known to be a monotheistic belief in one God Almighty. I don't see the trinity as polytheism because we are still to worship one God,this God is so complicated we can't understand there are parts of Him. I see Yahweh as the all powerful leader. We can  worship Him though His son Jesus AND worship Jesus as God.

There now, are we really confused?

[Hawkins]

On 2/15/2022 at 1:15 PM, MonicaWife said:

I have an neat and useful Bible study app, called "My Bible", where I can (from the app/after I have installed it) download many different versions (translations) of the Bible, and many study tools too. Have you heard about this app? 

I use Wordsearch instead. I have more than 1000 books worthy of more than 5000 bucks, including tons of commentaries. However, Wordsearch discontinued after being acquired by Logos. Logos is never as good as Wordsearch.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Hawkins

[Guest]

So if people read the "wrong" translation of the Bible, are they not saved?

[Ani Tefillah]

32 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

So if people read the "wrong" translation of the Bible, are they not saved?

Personally I don't think that there's any Bible translation which is "perfectly" translated, and that's why I compare different translations, and especially try to find out what the meaning from the origin language (Hebrew and Greek). 

One can read all the Bible translations in the world without being saved. I believe that the only way I can get saved, is to repent from my sins and get saved and born again through the Lord Yeshua/Jesus. 

As I've listened to my husband's Biblical preaching and teaching for many years now, and also studied the sum of the Holy Word by myself, I've learned to know the sum of the Holy Word, and in that way I'm able to recognize "errors" in a Bible translation. 

[Anne2]

On 2/17/2022 at 4:53 AM, other one said:

The word God/god itself in the original language does not carry the same meaning as modern culture puts on it.

There are no capitol letters in Hebrew and the Greek manuscripts are in all caps, so there isn't really any difference in God and god in the original languages.   And it represents any being that is not human and exists outside this world at times.   Our God the Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Baal, Moloch, Apollo and many old pagan gods (fallen angels) are all the same word in both original language.   The Capitol letters are put there by translators.

To accomplish what you are asking (which is an excellent ask) one needs more than a word for word type translation.   And that is why I have a study Bible computer program with 28 translations and an interlinear Bible that literally translates one word at a time with both Strong's word meanings and Englishman's concordance.    Most of the time that is rather overkill, but it has allowed me to reconcile all my questions about the Bible and what it is trying to tell us.

 

On 2/17/2022 at 4:53 AM, other one said:

An alternative would be to learn both Hebrew and Greek and try to find access to as many of the original manuscripts as one could.  Which would cost a lot and take several years and who knows where to find the originals.

 

Years ago I downloaded a bible program that gives me the A.V. English, and the Greek Byzantine with strongs new testament. Also the LXX Greek old testament, which originally was tied to the strongs as well. They updated, and I lost that function unless I paid. But I can go to the Byzantine new testament highlight a word in the Greek, and search the LXX old testament and all where that word shows up. The program also includes the Peshitta, and TR classic. I hated losing the strongs in the LXX, I am thinking of purchasing the function. I can get the results by highlighting it is just more cumbersome.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Anne2