The alive and remaining are changed - doesn't that mean all the rest died?

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

No matter what happened. If scripture said it happened at a time that was at hand when John was shown his vision then that is when it happened. The only exceptions possible are those scripture itself provides. 

If I understand correctly the AMIL position is doesn't matter when the vision took place it was not a prophecy but a History.  Because it was a history we never will know for sure if it took place or it didn't take place, and it doesn't matter. 

What was it for?  A partial history of events that took place in heaven and on earth that only God needs to know?  

AMIL also believes it was a vision and as such if a part is 'shown to be truth' we are to take it all was true?

Amil believes that the 2nd Advent took place in 70AD or Judgement?

Amil believes it was the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the new?

Amil believes that Satan was 'spiritually' bound for the next RANDOM amount of years?   

Amil believes Satan was loosed WHEN?

Amil believes Satan is deceiving the nations right now having been let loose?

Amil believes that we are living and reigning with Christ both on earth and in heaven for 1000 years?

Amil believes Jesus will be returning for a 3rd Advent in which the dead are judged and life will continue on for those who return with Him and then our bodies will be changed into incorruptible bodies?

Amil believes the war of Gog and Magog will preceed the 3rd Advent? 

Amil believes Christ is ruling with a rod of iron right now and there are no other kingdoms?  

Amil believes the image has been set up and worshipped?

Amil believes that the two witnesses came in 66 AD and were killed and resurrected in 70 AD?

Amil believes the two witnesses are not really coming they are ?  

Amil believes the plagues took place in 70 AD?

What do Amils do with all the prophecy of the OT that fits with Revelation?  Is it prophecy or is it not?  If not what was God saying?  

How do Amils rightly divide what is literal and what is not?  Is there a code, a process is there some scripture is it just a feeling or is there a doctrine that if it literally fits its literal and if it doesn't literally fit it is symbolic?  

What besides God is in control of His creation at all times and has and always will be and we live and read the bible with this knowledge< do Amils believe is important for others to know?  

Can any amils set forth the order of what has taken place and/or what is still future?

Is there a list somewhere of the break down of Literal past and future and Symbolic past and future?  



Questions
If it WAS ALL PAST by the time John wrote it, WHY is it not called HISTORY?  How can John be told things THAT WILL COME TO PASS, if they are ALREADY in the past?  

What is being shown in Rev the churches need to know?  If none of it takes place what does it all mean to us today or does it hold any meaning?  



Why are amils reading the bible and talking about prophecy if their calling is to be spreading the good news?  Like you said in that one post the world is losing truth so what I don't understand is why even knowing  that desperate need spend all this time in discussions that don't address your calling?  Have Amils ever considered that what is taking place in the world is because they aren't doing their God appointed job but the job of Gods other servants?  



This sort of logic fails for me.  To just believe it is all past even though there is no proof of it being so, when proof is what prophecy is all about.  Things to come are actually things that have already taken place?  Amils must understand our confusion.   




How is this not literal?

And when shall have been completed the thousand years, will be released Satan out of the prison of him

5055. teleó 
Strong's Concordance
teleó: to bring to an end, complete, fulfill
Original Word: τελέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-eh'-o)
Definition: to bring to an end, complete, fulfill
Usage: (a) I end, finish, (b) I fulfill, accomplish, (c) I pay.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5055 teléō (from 5056 /télos, "consummation, completion") – properly, to complete (consummate), i.e. finish (qualitatively) the necessary process – with the results "rolling-over" to the next level (phase) of consummation. See 5056 (telos).

[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]

 

[DeighAnn]

AMILs believe that God is in charge of everything always and is in control of everything that will ever take place, as we all do

THEN FOLLOW THAT UP WITH 'but wrote the WORDS WE STUDY TODAY as applicable to only one generation'.  In my world that makes no sense.  

God DID KNOW the END would be a few thousand years later.  We know that because  we live and breathe today just as they did then and when the Lords Day  comes in ALL WILL BE CHANGED.  

THE LORDS DAY
do THE EVENTS THAT TOOK PLACE in 70AD FIT WITH WHAT WE KNOW GOD told the prophets to write?   

What did GOD TELL US THE DAY OF VENGENCE would be about long before the NEW TEST was written? 

 Did what take place in 70AD have prophesy of it's own that had nothing to do with the Lords Day?  (not one stone atop)

Because I don't see THE AFTERMATH AS looking like what is described here

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Isaiah 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

Isaiah 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

Isaiah 61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.

Isaiah 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

Is it possible that Christ meant 'for the next 40' years? 

Was SALVATION only open to the Gentiles for 40 years?  

Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
 

[debrakay]

19 hours ago, Josheb said:

If Revelation 20 carefully it will be seen there is no mention of the earth in the entire chapter. Nothing in Revelation 20 specifies his kingdom is on earth. .

Earth is mentioned in Revelation Chapter 20.

Rev 20:7- 9 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,  and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Every Old Testament passage about the kingdom of God should be read as the New Testament treats it, NOT as the Jews read it. Judaism is the foundation upon which our faith - Christianity - is built but the Jews and Judaism got a lot incorrect, including the kingdom. The king stood right in front of the Jews of the gospel era commanding the elements of creation, casting out demons and healing the sick and most of those Jews denied him as Messiah, priest and king. They killed their king, and they did so in complete ignorance it had been prophesied that is what they would do. 

Their house was desolate. 

IS THIS TRUTH?  

Who did the KING STAND IN FRONT OF?  

Matthew 23:2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

 

Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Matthew 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

Matthew 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

Matthew 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Matthew 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

AND THAT PROPHESY  DID COME UPON THAT GENERATION

JUST 40 YEARS LATER. 70AD  not the Lords Day

BUT WHO ARE THESE THAT CLAIM TO BE JEWS AND ARE NOT?   WHO CLAIM THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN IN BONDAGE TO ANY MAN?  

WHAT IS THE VERY FIRST PROPHECY?   THAT TELLS US WHO KILLED CHRIST IN CASE JESUS DIDN'T MAKE IT PLAIN ENOUGH HERE. 
 

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


JESUS HIMSELF TELLS US THE SAME STORY GOES ON WE ARE JUST OPENING SALVATION  UP TO ALL PEOPLES BY GRAFTING THEM IN BUT THE SAME STORY CONTINUES TO THE VERY END OF THE BOOK WHEN FINALLY 'THE HEAD' SHALL BE BRUISED.  

CHRISTIANS ARE 'DIFFERENT' BECAUSE THE UNDER LAW AND DEATH WAS REPLACED WITH UNDER GRACE.  THOSE ARE THE CHANGES.  IT IS STILL AND ALWAYS WILL BE ABOUT ISRAEL.  THAT WILL NEVER CHANGE. GOD HAS NOT CAST OFF HIS PEOPLE. THEY WERE BLINDED SO THAT THE WORLD COULD BE INCLUDED IN THE KINGDOM BUT THAT KINGDOM NEVER CHANGES.  imho



1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1 Corinthians 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

[debrakay]

I am mainly posting here just to clarify for myself regarding certain words used: (I have to find a definition/meaning as I am not a teacher, preacher, scholar, etc. only a student.)

Wikipedia: Eschatology, from Greek "eschatos"; last, concerns, expectations of the end of the present age, or of history, or of the world itself. 

Miriam-Webster: : 1: a branch of theology concerned with the final events in the history of the world or of humankind; 2: a belief concerning death, the end of the world, or the ultimate destiny of humankind.

If someone says "depending on your eschatology" that would that mean our own individual thoughts and our own individual, personal, final choice of determination, understanding, and our expectations of the end of the entire physical world, correct? 

Why would there be any contentious conversations about such a topic for which there are no final or correct answers to and so many questions?  I understand the need and want to learn but I do not understand the need to argue or try to prove ones own personal point(s).  (This would be the peacemaker trait in me asking why.)

My eschatology is that my literal world will end the day I draw my last breath of air on this earth but it will not be the end of "THE" world. My eschatology is that this world, this earth, the one we are spinning with today, will come to an end at "THE" appointed time of I AM.  I do love learning scripture and learning about people so thank you to all who have given their hearts here and allowed the Holy Spirit to guide them in their choice of words to and for others.

Titus 3:8-9  This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.   

[Last Daze]

28 minutes ago, debrakay said:

Why would there be any contentious conversations about such a topic for which there are no final or correct answers to and so many questions?  I understand the need and want to learn but I do not understand the need to argue or try to prove ones own personal point(s).  (This would be the peacemaker trait in me asking why.)

You're absolutely right.

I think it's because the study of eschatology is so complicated with all the imagery and symbolism and events that a person can spend hundreds, if not thousands, of hours trying to make sense of it.  That person will then probably want to share with others what they've learned.

So that person then takes to discussion forums like this one to share their thoughts and find out that other people see things differently.  It usually escalates into a contentious exchange when pride gets in the way and people start treating their view of eschatology as if it's a cardinal doctrine.

The approach I believe we should have is to recognize that it is the Holy Spirit that shows us the things to come.

• But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.  John 16:13

If we wish to engage in eschatological discussions, we need to be mindful of that truth.  If our understanding is from the Spirit, He will reveal that to the reader if that reader is open to the truth.  That's what He does.  It's not our place to persistently insist that we are right, no matter how "magnificently brilliant" we perceive ourselves to be.  None of us would have a clue if it weren't for revelation from the Holy Spirit.  Just lay it out there and let Him do His job.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, debrakay said:

Why would there be any contentious conversations about such a topic for which there are no final or correct answers to and so many questions?  I understand the need and want to learn but I do not understand the need to argue or try to prove ones own personal point(s).  (This would be the peacemaker trait in me asking why.)

 

First,  Don't think for a second there are no final or correct answers.  It's a narrow path and the only way to know if you are on it is YOU CAN FIND WHAT YOU KNOW WRITTEN.  Not thought, not supposed, not part of the way but ALL THE WAY and in every direction.  

WE ARGUE because

Deuteronomy 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

(SOME WILL SAY 'THEY ARE DONE AWAY' BUT THEY ARE NOT,  AT LEAST NOT UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH.  MUCH OF THE LAW HAS TO DO WITH GOVERNMENT, CIVIL,  JUDICIAL.  Remember when they were given the law THEY HAD BEEN SLAVES for 400 years.  They had NO IDEA how to run a country.  GOD laid out the perfect government system for them.  Then there were all the statutes and ordinances that went with the temple and sacrifice that CHRIST fulfilled (Praise ye the Lord) and the 10 commandments, they are IN the ark of the covenant, the MERCY SEAT sits over them.) 

Deuteronomy 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

Deuteronomy 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Deuteronomy 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Deuteronomy 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

WHAT IS THE WAR BEING FOUGHT?  EVERY DAY  That is why it is so important to know what the two churches Jesus approved of knew.  SATAN is working and he is working in the churches too.  

 

Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psalm 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psalm 12:8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

Second,

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.


Christ was asked about the end of the age and He gave very specific advice and warnings and instructions. 

The first thing though, THERE IS ONE PATH there is one Truth and there is ONE THING and only one thing,  you can be sure of, the words of GOD, THEY ARE LIFE.  

 

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


BIG BIG lessons in this and in Gen 3 about HOW SATAN DECEIVES.  And what you will notice it is THROUGH THE WORDS OF GOD.  

God just got done saying "THIS IS MY BELOVED SON.."  
So what does Satan do?  He QUESTIONS (and so makes us question the words of God)  Is GOD lying?  Prove it.  

And the  FIRST three WORDS OF THE MINISTRY OF JESUS CHRIST are  

It is written,
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
so take note of anyone who tries to change that

 rest assured that that, is what Satan will be attacking.   And he is So good even GODS elect would be deceived.  How do we know? that is of GOD?  it is written.  

You are going to find doctrines in every shape and form that try to make this NOT so.  Pre trib  (hope no one still believes this anymore)  basically says GOD will be changing  almost everything about Himself from what He thinks how He perfects, what He promises for one generation.  Without a single word written in the words of God.  The BIGGEST MIRACLE that would ever come upon the earth and GOD who wants us to glory in His power, SAYs NOTHING specific about it,  neither before, during or after.  Man of course has written pages and pages of words of their own but with the mystery of iniquity beginning to work long ago...
  
If I tell you a storm is coming in a month but I will be getting you out of here in 3 weeks, how well are you going to prepare for the storm?  NOT AT ALL IT, since it wont be effecting you.  Same thing.  Oh, and when the storm does come in two weeks, it doesn't feel like a storm at all, it feels like the best weather ever. But then on day 7,the earth swallows you up. 

Convince them they won't be here, so they 'don't think all the warnings and the prophecies' have anything to do with them.  

We argue because if we don't then only lies are around to be found.  

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I think it's because the study of eschatology is so complicated with all the imagery and symbolism and events that a person can spend hundreds, if not thousands, of hours trying to make sense of it.  That person will then probably want to share with others what they've learned.

If you wanted to describe a world government that had slowly evolved from the peoples of the seven continents and consisted of 10 powerful kingdoms, kings who were really a bunch of  bullies who all answered to one really evil, wicked mean and nasty brute, OH lets just call him what he really is, a real BEAST you might describe it like

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

 

[Selah7]

10 hours ago, debrakay said:

Why would there be any contentious conversations about such a topic for which there are no final or correct answers to and so many questions?  I understand the need and want to learn but I do not understand the need to argue or try to prove ones own personal point(s).  (This would be the peacemaker trait in me asking why.)

Good morning, debrakay.  
 

Why do we debate?  I’m not usually contentious, I don’t think.  We discuss and debate a lot, some of us endlessly because we want God’s Word to be presented truthfully so that others who may not know will know, too!  Isaiah 40:28 asks,”Do you not know?  Have you not heard?”  Unfortunately, it seems that in dividing the Word of God, we don’t always agree with each other, even though we are all searching for the Truth.

The Bible tells us in 1 Timothy 2:15 to study the Bible, right?  No ifS, buts or maybes.  It says it plainly.  And in Hosea 4:6, we are told that God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.  Not only that, faith comes by the Word of God.  In many places God tells us, “It is written.”  Why?  Because He wants us to read it.  Why?  In order that we may be able to plant seeds and share with others all about God’s plan of Salvation.  Most folks, especially those who don’t know the Lord, fear the unknown.  ….But our Father has given us the Bible where He foretells all things we need to know so that we will gain wisdom and not be afraid.  I personally love the prophetic books because I have found out that, hey, the best is yet to come!

[angels4u]

2 Timothy 2:15

15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.