Faith

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 4/25/2022 at 10:54 AM, Alive said:

Is faith/believing something you do? 

Is it even something you can do? 

"I have three small planets (about the size of the planet Mercury) in my hip pocket", do you believe that?

Seems to me that believe is something that happens to us, I would imagine that even if you want to or choose to try to believe, that you cannot "do" it. Investigating, is something we do, choosing among options is some thing we do, if it is like deciding between having apple pie or cherry pie, but faith in God? I think that is a happening, not a doing! Too long winded?

[Omegaman 3.0]

While I was preparing dinner just now, it something occured to me, from todays' Bible study I attend on John 10. Not a simple yes or know, but I hope it is okay if I deviate a little more since this topic is 11 days old now.

We might be tempted to think about faith as something we do or do not do, but a question I would ask (and answer from John 10), is why don't people believe?

Here I am thinking that the goal of the topic, is not about belief as in "I believe I will have cornflakes for breakfast tomorrow", as distint from believing God/Jesus.

In that chapter, Jesus is talking about the narrow gate, and the sheep that listen to the shepherd's voice, etc. Sheep listen to their shepherd! To answer my own question:

"Why don't people believe?" there is this:

24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me,^a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

"but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."

Notice the implication there? People do not become Jesus' sheep, because they beleive, they believe because they are His sheep! How did Jesus get those sheep? That is in verse 29!

 

[JohnR7]

On 4/25/2022 at 1:54 PM, Alive said:

Is faith/believing something you do? 

Human faith is called the power of positive thinking, the power of suggestion or even the placebo effect. God's faith is His divinity working in us. We know what people are capable of so as a christian we need to be able to go beyond what man can do. We need the Faith and the Grace of God working in us. You want to keep it simple so we can just leave it at that. We do not save ourselves, this is a work of God in us and through us. 

[Selah7]

31 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

While I was preparing dinner just now, it something occured to me, from todays' Bible study I attend on John 10. Not a simple yes or know, but I hope it is okay if I deviate a little more since this topic is 11 days old now.

We might be tempted to think about faith as something we do or do not do, but a question I would ask (and answer from John 10), is why don't people believe?

Here I am thinking that the goal of the topic, is not about belief as in "I believe I will have cornflakes for breakfast tomorrow", as distint from believing God/Jesus.

In that chapter, Jesus is talking about the narrow gate, and the sheep that listen to the shepherd's voice, etc. Sheep listen to their shepherd! To answer my own question:

"Why don't people believe?" there is this:

24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me,^a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

"but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."

Notice the implication there? People do not become Jesus' sheep, because they beleive, they believe because they are His sheep! How did Jesus get those sheep? That is in verse 29!

 

Mebelieves that yeah, His sheep know their Master.  They know His voice.  And His sheep were either chosen by God before the foundation of the world, or they were given free will by God to choose His Son Jesus.  There are 2 groups, I think.  Both are Elect.  Does that sound too far out there?  I can provide scriptural support tomorrow afternoon as to why I believe this to be true.  Goodnight, Om.     ...Selah

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, Selah7 said:

Mebelieves that yeah, His sheep know their Master.  They know His voice.  And His sheep were either chosen by God before the foundation of the world, or they were given free will by God to choose His Son Jesus.  There are 2 groups, I think.  Both are Elect.  Does that sound too far out there?  I can provide scriptural support tomorrow afternoon as to why I believe this to be true.  Goodnight, Om.     ...Selah

I pretty much know (I think) most of the verses that support the various understandings. What I consider though, is whatever the right view is, it will harmonize with all scripture. If scripture refutes what we think, then we are probably misunderstanding!

[Marilyn C]

We also need to remember that Satan and his fallen angels believe in God, however they do not rightly act on that belief - worship and obey.

Thus because we have faith/belief in God (His character and His purposes), we rightly act upon that and worship and obey God.

[kwikphilly]

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Is it even something you can do? 

"I have three small planets (about the size of the planet Mercury) in my hip pocket", do you believe that?

Seems to me that believe is something that happens to us, I would imagine that even if you want to or choose to try to believe, that you cannot "do" it. Investigating, is something we do, choosing among options is some thing we do, if it is like deciding between having apple pie or cherry pie, but faith in God? I think that is a happening, not a doing! Too long winded?

Yes- long winded but such GOOD stuff Brother!

 Then you asked " why dont people Believe"  

I dont believe Omega can ever give a simple yes or no? Why?" Because Omega is long winded.... Rofl

Oh, was that not the question?

[Sower]

On 4/25/2022 at 1:16 PM, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

On 4/25/2022 at 12:54 PM, Alive said:

I have a question to ask and any can answer, but try to keep answers fairly brief--OK?

I am wanting to keep this as simple as the question is.

:-)

Is faith/believing something you do? 

No....faith is believing and trusting in God..Once he regenerates you.faith is a gift from God.

My answer,
No/yes     No work-Yes believe. (according to my bible, see quotes way below)

I do not want to deviate from the gist of what everybody (or maybe Alive) seems to funnel this subject to faith in God, and/or His promises (I think)

Above Rosie says no to the question;  "Is faith/believing something you do"
Rosie, I am using your statement only to help me walk through my train of thought.
Not a reply or anything to your statement and hope you understand.

The word "something" above indicates to me some thing. Not believing IN something, but is  believing or faith an action, something we do.

I believe it is the result of seeing or hearing or feeling/smelling/taste etc.
Data input into memory gives a reasonable 'informed' output.

I have faith in the brakes of my current truck because I have used them thousands of times and they are very reliable. Modern technology, safety testing, owners manual, reliable mechanics all have reinforced my trust (faith) in them and I trust them, not like the old mechanical brakes in my early truck fifty yrs ago that often sorta 'faded away' at the wrong time. No trust or faith in then. Personal data acquired for future need.

Scripture says faith comes by hearing, the word of God. Light. Truth. Simple.
So God says  above I can get faith (in Him and His word) without having to "drive/test the truck" but just hear his words he gives to us in His owners manual, the scriptures.

As a wannabe Christian one day I heard (hearing) a tiny nugget of truth sown by a faithful old Christian that entered my ears/heart that caused me (interest or curiosity or confusion of conflicting data, or excitement or the spirit ?) to look and see what else was in that owners manual. Over a period of time I downloaded more light/truth data that continually added to my faith/belief/trust that culminating in me telling God that I am so full of so much light I I bursting with words to express I believe all this light/truth and I want what it promises me through this trust, faith, that evolved upon hearing the word just like He promised. And, A child was born. Again.

Quotes here;   (answer to question)

"as a man thinketh so is he"  ( (hypocrisy-outward or authenticity-heart)

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is counted for righteousness"

"But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in him"

Though I was baptized at birth into the RCC and knew a lot about God as a altar boy for years, and confirmed by Cardinal Spellman, thirty years later I was still lost when I heard that word from the preacher "I must be born again" I was still lost and angry at all the priests and nuns that never told me the truth. So I started digging and downloading more data/truth (the word) till my faith gauge read full.

It was the word, through the voice of a man first, the written word in scripture latter, and other men's voices that proclaimed the truth that set me free.  So...

Salvation is by Grace, through faith...

then there is this;

7 hours ago, Sower said:

                   "folks that give themselves credit"

I think maybe I should be ashamed for how I always thought. Perhaps.
I think I understand you Alive. Haven't considered your statement fully. Yet.
I never thought in the terns 'giving my self credit' when I used to think I could decide my own actions, to which I AM RESPONSIBLE for, being as how I never thought of myself as a robot, subject to outside input in --ah, be enablement by/to,  act. Again, I think I understand you, but the explanation as to  why I "give myself credit' to me, is a stretch. I reckon this is just another discussion started hundreds of years ago. If so, I should bow out now, gracefully. And if necessary, I concede...
If not, I'll continue to watch.
 

Alive said;

"Brother. God bless you. I think it can be a very subtle sort of thing where a foothold is provided for the enemy. Its a danger. Not necessarily manifested in all, but it is a thing to be aware of…as many other potential fleshy things are.

There are other important issues connected to this relating to the degree of Grace we feel we need and then how the fruit of that extends to others.

One could say, there is a direct relationship between those two in the heart"

 

I do not understand the above Alive . I do know salvation is by the wonderful amazing Grace. I don't know what foothold you refer to. I really try to avoid the never ending tulip discussions.    I am not apologizing for any thing in above reply to you. My statement was meant to say  that what I believe (about how I received faith to believe) seems to insult or at least at odds with some here (should I reply) and saying I felt ashamed was a facetious remark, obviously missed. My bad. I do not believe I need to be born again to be born again. I believe it was the word that gave me the faith to believe. I was a 'whosoever' which actually means whosoever. Whosoever stands in the rain gets wet. Whosoever believes will be saved. That verse can be really twisted by a good twister. The point I'm making is it was the word that gave me the faith to believe. I could be wrong if that would give those adamant's  comfort. Doesn't matter to me either way, really.
Won't change my desire to go to heaven and take as many others as I can with me.
*******Alert!******Only God can save***** I got it ********
God tells me how to acquire faith. I believed Him. Add His grace, viola, saved.
I am not disagreeing/agreeing with anyone, just giving some of my thoughts about my understanding based upon my own personal experiences. Neat post Alive.
   (will try to be more succinct in future:)  yeah right!

"Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God
            like a little child will never enter it.”

 

 

 

 

[kwikphilly]

31 minutes ago, Sower said:

My answer,
No/yes     No work-Yes believe. (according to my bible, see quotes way below)

I do not want to deviate from the gist of what everybody (or maybe Alive) seems to funnel this subject to faith in God, and/or His promises (I think)

Above Rosie says no to the question;  "Is faith/believing something you do"
Rosie, I am using your statement only to help me walk through my train of thought.
Not a reply or anything to your statement and hope you understand.

The word "something" above indicates to me some thing. Not believing IN something, but is  believing or faith an action, something we do.

I believe it is the result of seeing or hearing or feeling/smelling/taste etc.
Data input into memory gives a reasonable 'informed' output.

I have faith in the brakes of my current truck because I have used them thousands of times and they are very reliable. Modern technology, safety testing, owners manual, reliable mechanics all have reinforced my trust (faith) in them and I trust them, not like the old mechanical brakes in my early truck fifty yrs ago that often sorta 'faded away' at the wrong time. No trust or faith in then. Personal data acquired for future need.

Scripture says faith comes by hearing, the word of God. Light. Truth. Simple.
So God says  above I can get faith (in Him and His word) without having to "drive/test the truck" but just hear his words he gives to us in His owners manual, the scriptures.

As a wannabe Christian one day I heard (hearing) a tiny nugget of truth sown by a faithful old Christian that entered my ears/heart that caused me (interest or curiosity or confusion of conflicting data, or excitement or the spirit ?) to look and see what else was in that owners manual. Over a period of time I downloaded more light/truth data that continually added to my faith/belief/trust that culminating in me telling God that I am so full of so much light I I bursting with words to express I believe all this light/truth and I want what it promises me through this trust, faith, that evolved upon hearing the word just like He promised. And, A child was born. Again.

Quotes here;   (answer to question)

"as a man thinketh so is he"  ( (hypocrisy-outward or authenticity-heart)

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is counted for righteousness"

"But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in him"

Though I was baptized at birth into the RCC and knew a lot about God as a altar boy for years, and confirmed by Cardinal Spellman, thirty years later I was still lost when I heard that word from the preacher "I must be born again" I was still lost and angry at all the priests and nuns that never told me the truth. So I started digging and downloading more data/truth (the word) till my faith gauge read full.

It was the word, through the voice of a man first, the written word in scripture latter, and other men's voices that proclaimed the truth that set me free.  So...

Salvation is by Grace, through faith...

then there is this;

Alive said;

"Brother. God bless you. I think it can be a very subtle sort of thing where a foothold is provided for the enemy. Its a danger. Not necessarily manifested in all, but it is a thing to be aware of…as many other potential fleshy things are.

There are other important issues connected to this relating to the degree of Grace we feel we need and then how the fruit of that extends to others.

One could say, there is a direct relationship between those two in the heart"

 

I do not understand the above Alive . I do know salvation is by the wonderful amazing Grace. I don't know what foothold you refer to. I really try to avoid the never ending tulip discussions.    I am not apologizing for any thing in above reply to you. My statement was meant to say  that what I believe (about how I received faith to believe) seems to insult or at least at odds with some here (should I reply) and saying I felt ashamed was a facetious remark, obviously missed. My bad. I do not believe I need to be born again to be born again. I believe it was the word that gave me the faith to believe. I was a 'whosoever' which actually means whosoever. Whosoever stands in the rain gets wet. Whosoever believes will be saved. That verse can be really twisted by a good twister. The point I'm making is it was the word that gave me the faith to believe. I could be wrong if that would give those adamant's  comfort. Doesn't matter to me either way, really.
Won't change my desire to go to heaven and take as many others as I can with me.
*******Alert!******Only God can save***** I got it ********
God tells me how to acquire faith. I believed Him. Add His grace, viola, saved.
I am not disagreeing/agreeing with anyone, just giving some of my thoughts about my understanding based upon my own personal experiences. Neat post Alive.
   (will try to be more succinct in future:)  yeah right!

"Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God
            like a little child will never enter it.”

 

 

 

 

Bless you Sower

  Love your honesty(,as always)& I think I get where you are coming from.... Its not an easy question to answer with a simple yes or no - especially because there is a faith & then there is Faith..... both imply action but one you believe someTHING , the other is Believing SomeONE but lets be very clear....the Called out are Given a " measure of faith" ..... So, do we DO someTHING with the measure of faith we were Given?

As Omega said"Its a Happening" .... Still, there is always free will... So we can choose to Believe WHO or WHAT..,... That is something or SOMEONE...... its an action without having to DO anything but RECEIVE!!!!

 I preferred my short answer "no"

 Ive heard many times" Why dont I have as much Faith as you do?".my reply is:

 I have no more, no less than you.... But WHAT do you Believe or WHO do you Believe... That is the Faith by which we Receive Gods Grace

Jesus, Jesus,Jesus

 With love in Christ, Kwik

[Sower]

3 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Me believes that yeah, His sheep know their Master.  They know His voice.  And His sheep were either chosen by God before the foundation of the world, or they were given free will by God to choose His Son Jesus.  There are 2 groups, I think.  Both are Elect.  Does that sound too far out there?  I can provide scriptural support tomorrow afternoon as to why I believe this to be true.  Goodnight, Om.     ...Selah

Your not the only one who has considered this, as I have been at the point of saying on some heated debates that could it be that both "sides" are mostly correct, in that there were some the Father "chose"to be guaranteed believers, and the rest of the "whosoevers" received their faith to believe by hearing the word.
I hesitated to jump in to the discussion lest I only open up another can of worms...

Will be interesting to see what unfolds, Selah..