Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Hi Iamlamad- 

  Could you please go into a bit more detail? I don't know what part you think is nonsense and what part is not.

As far as the 7th trumpet it sounds at the end of the tribulation as shown in the vision of Daniel when the stone smote the image on the feet and the kingdoms of this world became as the chaff of the summer threshing floor...This does not take place in the middle of the 7 year period...it takes place when Christ comes...Christ does not come at the middle of the 7 year period..he comes on the last day, at the last trumpet, immediately after the tribulation.

Blessings to you- Gary

Sorry, but that is imagination. There is no scripture that links the 7th trumpet with the Stone destroying the image. What does make sense is that this happens as Jesus comes to Armageddon. His coming is shown in chapter 19, NOT chapter 11.

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Many have inserted a 1000 year gap between these two resurrections because Rev. 20:5 seemed to imply the wicked dead would not live again until the 1000 years was finished.

It was John that flat out told us there will be 1000 years between two resurrections. It does not "seem to imply," it TELLS US. Why fight scripture?

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1) Michael stands up...

2) There will be a time of trouble...

3) Israel will be delivered...

 

Daniel did not quit writing at the end of chapter 11, and the Beast is not destroyed at the end of chapter 11, for it is the Beast that CAUSES the time of trouble in chapter 12. According to Jesus, the time of trouble as in the days of great tribulation cannot or will not start until after the midpoint of the 70th week. Michael stands up because the exact midpoint of the week is when He goes to war with Satan.

The middle of the week is hinted at 5 different times with 5 different countdowns from the middle of the week to the end of the week, in chapters 11, 12, and 13. These are therefore midpoint chapters. The exact midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet. The days of GT therefore must start AFTER the 7th trumpet. Indeed, John shows us the rise of the Antichrist Beast in chapter 13.

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at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

What happens "at that time?" Michael stands up. Revelation 12 tells us what he will do. Next, the time of trouble will begin. Note carefully that it cannot begin and end at the same time. This (the midpoint) is only the beginning. The time of trouble will last until Jesus comes. Next, at that time (it is now an extended period of time lasting past the time of trouble to the time Jesus returns) God's people are delivered. 

A good bible rule to follow is that if some event (such as resurrections) is covered in both the Old and New testaments, form your doctrine from the New, and fill in missing pieces from the Old. The New Covenant is a much later and more complete revelation.

[transmogrified]

On 6/20/2022 at 8:10 PM, Uriah said:

This usually is used to imply that "he", "the king" in question is the antichrist, but that man is NEVER called a king.

Hi Uriah....Sorry for the delay in getting back with you ...have been doing some research plus for some reason my computer shut down and I lost everything.

The antichrist is called a king in a number of places. And of course when the time frame in 12:1 is kept in its proper position he is called the king of the north in previous verses.

In Dan. 7:21 he is the king that emerges out from the ten kings:

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And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

The ten horns are identified as being ten kings, so when it says 'and of the other which came up' it is also referring to a king.

When the angel gave Daniel the interpretation this is what he said:

Dan. 7:24-

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And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

So here it is spelled out the ten horns are ten kings and then another shall rise after them, meaning another king shall arise after them...other translators have clarified this as well:

NLT - Its ten horns are ten kings who will rule that empire. Then another king will arise, different from the other ten, who will subdue three of them.

NIV- The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings.

CSB- The ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. Another king, different from the previous ones, will rise after them and subdue three kings.

This is the one who wages war against the saints and is the one referred to 12:7 concerning the 3.5 years:

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And he (this King that was just referred to that came after the ten kings) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This is the same king in Rev. 17:11

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And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 

He is called the eighth and is of the seven...so he is the eighth (king) and is of the seven (kings) as other translations has also clarified:

NIV- The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

CSB- The beast that was and is not, is itself an eighth king, but it belongs to the seven and is going to destruction

NET - The beast that was, and is not, is himself an eighth king and yet is one of the seven, and is going to destruction.

In Rev. 16:10 it states:

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And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

The above quote shows the beast (who is the eight king) had a kingdom, again confirming that to be a king you need a kingdom, and a kingdom is not a kingdom without a king.

He is again called a king in 8:23

 

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And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Rev. 13:7 

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And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

It follows if he has power over all kindreds tongues and nations that he would be a king. 

On 6/20/2022 at 8:10 PM, Uriah said:

On 6/20/2022 at 9:24 AM, transmogrified said:

Reverting back to Hebrew does nothing to change it..the Hebrew says and means what it says in English.

Speaking of Hebrew, I'll bet you never looked at the number of ways that word is translated (into English) - "ʿēṯ" -H6256 in its many expressions. Why so many differences?

Please provide the Hebrew translated into English that changes the meaning of 'at that time' to 'at another time.'

On 6/20/2022 at 8:10 PM, Uriah said:

On 6/20/2022 at 9:24 AM, transmogrified said:

Saying the phrase 'But thou O Daniel' means the time frame changes is a private interpretation which has no validity.

Sure it does. One sentence is about a king in the future while the other is instructions to Daniel in his time.

The only way the time frame could go back to the time when the man in 11:45 comes to his end, would be if it was first changed into the future in 12:1. This has never been shown to be the case...only assumed.

On 6/20/2022 at 8:10 PM, Uriah said:

On 6/20/2022 at 9:24 AM, transmogrified said:

The above quote is in exact opposition to what the text says...the text links the time of the man who comes to his end with the following events in 12:1-3 

Well, that is where we disagree. The "king" (antiChrist???) is shown as living in his tents in Israel,

It does not just say 'living in his tents in Israel,' it says he will plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain...'

The glorious holy mountain is where Jerusalem is ...this is where he will sit in the temple of God showing himself to be God.

On 6/20/2022 at 8:10 PM, Uriah said:

The "king" (antiChrist???) is shown as living in his tents in Israel, nations that no longer exist escape him (Edom, Moab, Ammon).

It is not a valid argument to say these nations do not exist by those names today, therefore the man must be Antiochus.

Moab and Edom did not exist by those names in the time of Antiochus either as shown below: From: Brittanica.com 

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Moab had become a tributary of Assyria by the late 8th century BC and was conquered by the Babylonians in 582 BC, upon which the Moabites disappeared from history. Their territory was resettled by the Nabataeans in the 4th–3rd century BC.

From Bible Odyssey:

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The kingdom of Moab emerged in the ninth century B.C.E. and disappeared a few decades after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II in 586 B.C.E.

From Livius.org

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The country's history was now identical to that of the Near Eastern empire: when the Persians took power in 539, they also became the new masters of the province of Moab. When the Macedonian conqueror Alexander the Great subdued the Persians after 334, he took over Moab. After this, Moab disappears from our sources. The country was taken over by the Nabataeans. The reference to Moab in Daniel is a deliberate archaism.

There is one site saying the name of Moab was still used at the time of the Crusades, but building a castle with the name of Moab does not seem proof the name of Moab was still in use.

From New World Encyclopedia"

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Sometime during the Persian period, Moab disappears from the extant historical record. Its territory was subsequently overrun by waves of tribes from northern Arabia, including the Kedarites and (later) the Nabataeans. In Nehemiah 4:7, the Arabs, not the Moabites, are named as allies of the Ammonites. The country itself, however, continued to be known by its biblical name for some time; when the Crusaders occupied the area, the castle they built to defend the eastern part of the Kingdom of Jerusalem was called Krak des Moabites.

This from Biblewise.com

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By the 8th century, Assyria had taken over most of the Moabite lands.The Moabites were virtually wiped out in 582 BCE when the Babylonians conquered them.

Here is some history of Edom:

New World Encyclopedia:

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After the conquest of Judah by the Babylonians, the Edomites were allowed to settle in the region south of Hebron. They prospered in this new country, called by the Greeks and Romans "Idumaea" or "Idumea," for more than four centuries.[4] At the same time they were driven by the Nabataeans from their ancestral lands to the south and east.

From the above quote it seems the name was not Edom anymore, but Idumea after the Babylonian conquest.

This from Jewish Virtual Library:

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Edom, too, was subject to destruction in the sixth century B.C.E. Nomadic tribes infiltrated Edom and exerted pressure on the Edomites, who turned toward Judah and settled in its southern region. This settlement was long known in Hellenistic sources as *Idumea.

This is Wikipedia:

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After the conquest of Judah by the Babylonians, Edomites settled in the region of Hebron. They prospered in this new country, called by the Greeks and Romans "Idumaea" or "Idumea", for more than four centuries.

New World Encyclopedia on Ammon:

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The Ammonites under Timotheus were defeated by Judas (1 Maccabees 5:6). However, it is possible here that, after the Babylonian Exile, the term "Ammonite" denoted all peoples living in the former country of Ammon and Gad, including Samaritans and others.

The last notice of the Ammonites themselves is in Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho (§ 119), where it is affirmed that they were still a numerous people in the second century C.E..

 

From the above quotation it appears that Ammonites were a people in the Second Century AD, and including other people from Samaria and Gad and others. 

Another quote from Livius.org:   

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As an Assyrian vassal, Ammon had retained some of its independence, but when the Assyrians had been superseded by the Babylonians as leaders of the Near East, Ammon and Moab were, in 582, reduced to the rank of province of the Babylonian Empire.note Judah had already been annexed in 587.

The country's history was now identical to that of the Near Eastern empire: when the Persians took power in 539, they also became the new masters of the province of Ammon. A very brief inscription from the theater of Amman shows that, in spite of several regime changes, the Ammonites maintained ancestral traditions: they used the ancient title ba'al, "lord", for one of their gods and still called themselves "son of Ammon":

... for] Ba'al I shall build [...
...] son of Ammon [...

Qasr al-Abd, general view

When the Macedonian conqueror Alexander the Great subdued the Persians after 334 BCE, he took over Ammon as well. After his death and after the civil wars at the end of the fourth century, the region was part of the Ptolemaic Empire. In the third century, Ammon was renamed Philadelphia (after king Ptolemy II Philadelphus, r.282-246).

 

The above quote states Ammon's name was changed to Philadelphia at the end of the 4th Century BC which would have been before Antiochus.

So it seems from the above, that the names themselves are not the focus, but rather the area formerly defining the area of Moab, Edom and Ammon are what is in view. There are implications about Moab however in the New Testament when the woman was given two wings of a great eagle where she is nourished and protected from the face of the serpent for the last 3.5 years of the 7 year period.

Rev. 12: 13-

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And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

These are the outcasts that God protects in Moab during the tribulation:

Is. 16:4

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Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.

Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.

 

It looks as if they escape the Antichrist and that these three areas, Moab, Edom and Ammon become subject to Israel as she flees into the wilderness to this place prepared of God:

Isaiah 11:14

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But they (Israel) shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

 

On 6/20/2022 at 8:10 PM, Uriah said:

Another king comes after him with chariots, horsemen and many ships,

Who is the other king that comes after him? 

Here is the quote:

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And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

1) The king of the south pushes at him (the king of the north)..

2) The king of the north shall come against him (the king of the south)..

3) And he (the king of the north) shall enter into the countries...

There is still only the king of the north and the king of the south...the king of the north is still the king of the north he was in Dan. 11:21, and the king who spoke lies to the king of the south at one table, and the king who exalts himself above every god in 36....

On 6/20/2022 at 8:10 PM, Uriah said:

Egypt does not escape, etc.

The one who overcomes Egypt is the same man who comes to his end in 45...'At that time' means 'at that time' so this man is not Antiochus. 

On 6/20/2022 at 8:10 PM, Uriah said:

On 6/20/2022 at 9:24 AM, transmogrified said:

Saying the word 'that' means it changes the time frame is not valid if the word 'that' does not exist...it is an addition to the text. 

'Time that time' is also not valid...there is no additional word 'time' in the Hebrew nor is it translated that way in English. 

I recommend looking up what I stated above.

I did look at the word. What Hebrew text translates 'at that time' to English as 'at another time?' 

On 6/20/2022 at 8:10 PM, Uriah said:

I think you are still ignoring what I said about the scripture showing he defiled the temple, put the abomination of desolation/idol in it, stopped the sacrifices in his campaign of "indignation". 

11:30-indignation against covenant...

11:31- abomination that maketh desolate, stops sacrifice...

11:36- till the indignation be accomplished 

12:11- And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days

 

Jesus is describing the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet to be a future event the disciples were told would come...they were not told to look a past event, but he said 'When you see these things begin to come to pass, then know it is near (the second Coming) even at the doors.

He is not referring to an event that happened some 200 years before as something they will begin to see come to pass...what Antiochus did is not what Jesus is referring to. 

Blessings to you- Gary

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but that is imagination. There is no scripture that links the 7th trumpet with the Stone destroying the image.

The stone in Daniel is Jesus who smites the image on the feet and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord

The 7th trumpet sounds and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord.

There is scripture that links the 7th Trumpet with the stone destroying the image.

Blessings to you- Gary

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, transmogrified said:

He is again called a king in 8:23

Some good points, but you missed some of mine.

Rev 8 doesn't have 23 verses so I assume you mean Daniel

8:21- And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

8:22- Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

8:23- And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

So now you have the antichrist back in ancient Greece!!!?

That's enough already.

[Retrobyter]

On 6/20/2022 at 12:28 AM, Sister said:

No, many did something that proved them faithful in the end.  One act Gary.  One great sacrifice.  One big test where they had to choose what side they were going to be on.

Look, it's not all black and white.  Many will be just lacking in doctrine.  Not knowing much.  Not knowing anything.  Just having that faith in Christ.  These need to be taught doctrine first before they can be 'priests'.  How long does it take to teach a resurrected saint?  I don't know, but I know the Lord has a lot of time on his hands and everyone will reap what they have sown, even the saints.

Mark 4:24   And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

 

Shabbat shalom, Sister.

You've got the right idea. There will most definitely be a time of learning, a time to catch people up to speed, a learning curve.

It's like the great War that Yeshua` will wage when He returns: Would He put us all on horseback and expect us to know what to do in the battles to come? Would we be able to even ride a horse without experience?! What will be our jobs during the War? Will we be wielding weapons? Will we know HOW to wield a weapon?

Some people believe that we will have instantaneous knowledge when the Lord returns, but WE WERE NEVER PROMISED SUCH A THING!

One of the prophecies about the fighting that the Messiah will do when He returns suggests He will do the first battle alone!

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?" 

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save."

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

So, later we read in Revelation 19,

Revelation 19:11-16 (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called "The Word of God." 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (no battles seen here) 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

So, the battle in Revelation 19 is not His FIRST battle! However, the "armies" that "followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean" had obviously not seen battle, as yet (if they will at all)!

 

On another matter, it's important for all of you to understand that "holiness" is NOT the same as "righteousness." When one is "holy," one is "SINGLED OUT" for a particular task or service! The fact that they are washed in water to signify that they are so "singled out," doesn't mean that they are "cleansed from sin." It just means that they are ceremonially made clean to reflect the fact that God has called them for a particular purpose. A person can be "holy" and not be "righteous."

For instance, currently the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, are not righteous. Many have left the God of their fathers and call themselves "atheists!" HOWEVER, they are still "beloved for the fathers' sakes," and they are still "HOLY" because God has not forgotten them! Whether they like it or not, God still calls them HIS people!

Jeremiah 31:1-34 (KJV)

1 "At the same time," saith the LORD, "will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people."

2 Thus saith the LORD, "The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest."

3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, "Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness (Hebrew: checed = "covenant-keeping love") have I drawn thee. 4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry. 5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria (the West Bank): the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things."

6 "For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry,

'Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD (YHWH) our God.'"

7 For thus saith the LORD; "Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, 'O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.' 8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither. 9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, "He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock."

11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. 12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all. 

13 "Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow. 14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness," saith the LORD.

15 Thus saith the LORD; "A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel (Rachel) weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not."

16 Thus saith the LORD; "Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded," saith the LORD; "and they shall come again from the land of the enemy. 17 And there is hope in thine end," saith the LORD, "that thy children shall come again to their own border. 18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; 'Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. 19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.'"

20 "Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him," saith the LORD.

21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities. 22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; "As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; 'The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.' 24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks. 25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul. 26 'Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.'"

27 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. 28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant," saith the LORD.

29 In those days they shall say no more, "The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge." 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD': for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD: "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The stone in Daniel is Jesus who smites the image on the feet and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord

The 7th trumpet sounds and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord.

There is scripture that links the 7th Trumpet with the stone destroying the image.

Blessings to you- Gary

You are assuming (in error) that when the Kingdoms of earth are stripped from Satan and given to Jesus, that Jesus then takes immediately possession, as in returning. 

No, in reality, one of the first things Jesus does is DELEGATE or authorize 42 months of authority to the Beast.

You must not take anything from Revelation (a midpoint chapter) out of its midpoint context. John has given us five countdowns from the midpoint of the week to the end: two given as 1260 days, two given as 42 months, and one given as "times." That tells us that chapters 11, 12, and 13 are all midpoint chapters. However, there are events in these chapters that are written as parentheses, so will not take place at the midpoint. 

An example is most of chapter 13. After John gives us the 42 months of authority, John then takes the reader down the path of the last half of the week with the two beasts only, telling us what they will do. These verses are written as a parenthesis.

Another example is chapter 11:4 though verse 13. These verses are written as a parenthesis as John takes the readers down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only. John's chronology goes from chapter 9 to chapter 11:1, then 11:2, and 11:3. From there the chronology jumps over the parenthesis to verse 14 and 15 which mark the exact midpoint. From there chapter 12:6 is only seconds after the midpoint, having just seen the abomination, they begin to flee.

From there, John's chronology jumps to chapter 13: the beast rising and then given 42 months.

Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination, Therefore 12:6 is only seconds after.

[Retrobyter]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are assuming (in error) that when the Kingdoms of earth are stripped from Satan and given to Jesus, that Jesus then takes immediately possession, as in returning. 

No, in reality, one of the first things Jesus does is DELEGATE or authorize 42 months of authority to the Beast.

Shalom, iamlamad.

REALLY?! Talk about being naive and counterproductive! Yeshua` the King of the Jews, the King of Israel, and the One who will become the King of kings (a World Emperor) would DELEGATE any time at all to the BEAST, the worst possible person in the world to reign?! Are you meshuggah?!

No! Before He would do ANY of that nonsense, He would delegate members of His own family to be king in the Land or in the lands surrounding Israel! He will have just resurrected David, Shlomoh, Yoshiyahuw ("Josiah"), Zerrubbavel, even Ychizkiyaahuw ("Hezekiah"), as well as other good kings! ANY of these kings of Israel before Him would be preferable to the Beast! And, they will have all had previous experience from which to draw!

The Messiah of God will fight AGAINST the Beast! In fact, at the beginning of His reign, the Beast and the False Prophet (the Lying Prophet) will be taken and thrown alive into the Lake of Fire! Have we forgotten so much from Revelation 19?

Revelation 19:17-21 (KJV)

17 And I saw an angel (a messenger) standing in the [morning] sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven (in the middle of the sky),

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great!"

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This will happen just prior to the start of the Millennium, the 1,000-year lock-up of haSatan. (Revelation 20:1-3).

 

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You must not take anything from Revelation (a midpoint chapter) out of its midpoint context. John has given us five countdowns from the midpoint of the week to the end: two given as 1260 days, two given as 42 months, and one given as "times." That tells us that chapters 11, 12, and 13 are all midpoint chapters. However, there are events in these chapters that are written as parentheses, so will not take place at the midpoint.

You're right! They ARE "midpoint chapters!" But, one should not see the 3.5 years left of the "seventieth Seven" as the "tribulation!" The "tribulation" that Yeshua` described in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 has occurred from the First Century A.D. to the present and will continue until the Messiah returns in His Second Coming!

The Messiah Himself SPLIT the seventieth Seven when He left the Jews of Jerusalem "DESOLATE," and everything that was decided against them was poured upon the ones named "Desolate!" (Daniel 9:27 cff. Matthew 23:37-39). This is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble." (Jeremiah 30:7).

The children of Israel, particularly the Jews - the children of Yhudah or "Judah," suffered many things over the last 2,000 years! From the Roman persecutions, and the anti-Semitism of the 1st and 2nd Centuries, even to the mid 300s, at the hands of the organized Roman "Church" to the Inquisitions, the Isolations, the Exiles and Banishment from various countries, the Pogroms of Eastern Europe and Russia, the terrible Holocaust, and lately, the terrorism they suffer at the hands of the neighboring Islamic countries around modern Israel, they have CONSTANTLY been hounded, persecuted, blamed for Christ's death, being called "Christ-killers," and killed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ! (This is why they don't trust the "Church" or "Christians!") Their existence has been tolerated at best in the countries of Europe, Asia, and northern Africa! 

The two halves of the seventieth "Week" were actually like bookends to the Tribulation, not the Tribulation itself. This final "Week" is to complete the fulfillment of the six purposes for the seventy Sevens, found in Daniel 9:24! The first 3.5 years of the final Seven were the legitimate offer of God's Kingdom to Israel while the Messiah was present during the First Advent. The Messiah being rejected was part of the plan, however, since He was to be the Messiah Son of Joseph (the Joseph of Genesis), the Suffering and Dying Messiah, as the sacrificial Lamb of God.

When He returns, He will be the Messiah Son of David, the Conquering and Victorious Messiah, as the Lion of the Tribe of Yhudah ("Judah")! He will again offer God's Kingdom to the Jews, and this time, they will accept the offer!

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

An example is most of chapter 13. After John gives us the 42 months of authority, John then takes the reader down the path of the last half of the week with the two beasts only, telling us what they will do. These verses are written as a parenthesis.

Another example is chapter 11:4 though verse 13. These verses are written as a parenthesis as John takes the readers down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only. John's chronology goes from chapter 9 to chapter 11:1, then 11:2, and 11:3. From there the chronology jumps over the parenthesis to verse 14 and 15 which mark the exact midpoint. From there chapter 12:6 is only seconds after the midpoint, having just seen the abomination, they begin to flee.

No, this is wrong because the abomination that brought on desolation was experienced in 70 A.D., 40 years after Yeshua` left them "Desolate." Luke put it this way:

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV)

20 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

 

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

From there, John's chronology jumps to chapter 13: the beast rising and then given 42 months.

Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination, Therefore 12:6 is only seconds after.

This is fabricated from two different passages of Scripture that don't actually go together, and it's embellished with the "only seconds after" phrase.

In 66 A.D., the disciples DID flee from Jerusalem, just as they were instructed to do by the Messiah and warned by a messenger from God at the time they were to flee! They ran to the mountains, and crossed the Jordan into the Decapolis and dwelt in the land around a town called "Pella."

By assuming that the Beast and the Seven Years of the 70th Week of Daniel go together, this scenario is invented. But, the second half of the 70th Week is NOT the "Great Tribulation!" It's the second time that the offer of the Kingdom is made to the children of Israel, an offer made by God's Messiah (God's Choice) for Israel's King!

Edited June 26, 2022 by Retrobyter
wrong person who was a king corrected

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

REALLY?! Talk about being naive and counterproductive! Yeshua` the King of the Jews, the King of Israel, and the One who will become the King of kings (a World Emperor) would DELEGATE any time at all to the BEAST, the worst possible person in the world to reign?! Are you meshuggah?!

Ha ha ha! I guess you imagine the Beast will just STEAL 42 months of authority after Jesus is made KING over all?

The truth is, God made this decision (that the Beast would have 42 months of authority) probably before the foundations of the earth. John wrote it in Revelation around 95 AD. 

Perhaps then I should have written only that after Jesus becomes King over the earth, He just remains in heaven while the Beast uses up the authority allotted Him by the almighty God. One thing is sure: Jesus will not return to earth until after the 70th week is finished.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

...

No! Before He would do ANY of that nonsense, He would delegate members of His own family to be king in the Land or in the lands surrounding Israel! He will have just resurrected David, Shlomoh, Yoshiyahuw ("Josiah"), Zerrubbavel, even Ychizkiyaahuw ("Hezekiah"), as well as other good kings! ANY of these kings of Israel before Him would be preferable to the Beast! And, they will have all had previous experience from which to draw!

.

The kingdoms of the world being taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ is an event that will happen at the MIDPOINT of the 70th week. That is why John wrote this in chapter 11. 

Jesus does not return until chapter 19. John does not tell us what Jesus will be doing during the days of Great Tribulation, but one thing we know: He will remain in heaven until the timing of chapter 19 and AFTER the marriage and supper.

Edited June 26, 2022 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

...

The Messiah of God will fight AGAINST the Beast! In fact, at the beginning of His reign, the Beast and the False Prophet (the Lying Prophet) will be taken and thrown alive into the Lake of Fire! Have we forgotten so much from Revelation 19?

Revelation 19:17-21 (KJV)

You are simply mistaken about timing. We are at the midpoint of the week in our discussion and you bring up verses from AFTER the week has finished.

The 7th trumpet will sound at the MIDPOINT of the week. That is why John wrote it in chapter 11, a midpoint chapter.

Quote

at the beginning of His reign

Sorry, but this is not accurate. Jesus begins to reign over earth after the property closing takes place in heaven - after the kingdoms of the earth are legally HIS.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Right here at this timing Jesus begins to reign.  More proof.

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

We find nothing about what Jesus does for the rest of the 70th week. He remains in heaven. Revelation 19 is after the week has finished.

This fits with God's purpose. God's purpose according to Daniel 12 is to utterly crush the power of the Jews - in other words, their IDF, and bring them to the place where they have only ONE HOPE: if God will not intervene, Israel will be gone forever. The nations of the world have sent their armies to Israel to wipe them off the map. They ALMOST accomplish this - but just in the nick of time Jesus returns to Armageddon.