I am not understanding free will, I think!

[SIC]

12 hours ago, angeleyesGBU said:

I was just reading a daily reading in the Bible 365 Club here, and something in the book of John, caught me by surprise. I made a comment there, but I can see that there is not a lot of participation there, so I copied what I said there, for you consideration and thoughts here, as follows.

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Interesting, I was just discussing with someone about this with someone yesterday, or at least something related to this. We were talking about what free will means. I know that I have free will, at least I was thinking I have free will. Just reading the verses above makes me realize that I don't know as much as I thought I did.

That verse hit me like a ton of bricks! How have I failed to notice it before? Apparently I admit I have some confusion now, I need to study more. As a church affiliated teacher at a Christian high school who teaches Bible for a living, I need to be better informed!

What I am thinking, is that God invites everyone to come to Jesus. I am certain I can make that case from the Bible. In that verse, I am tempted to think that is as much as God has made that invitation,  that permission is implied. It that is the situation, well, I am missing something.

If I cannot come to Jesus unless it is granted me by the Father, doesn't that say or seem to say that the Father makes the decision, and I cannot come unless He says yes, and therefore it would seem, sometimes He says no or perhaps, I cannot even try to come unless He does something? Maybe my free will is not quite as simple as I think!

The way I understand this is God in Christ holds the door open and invites me in. The door is narrow I can only enter by repenting and putting away my own notions of how to live life and entirely accepting Jesus and Lord and Saviour. Counting everything else as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus . The Holy Spirit strengthens me to well and truly count everything as loss. The free will aspect lies in me chooosing to be willing to count everything else as loss. But to actually count everything else as loss I need the power of the Holy Spirit.

[AnOrangeCat]

12 hours ago, angeleyesGBU said:

If I cannot come to Jesus unless it is granted me by the Father, doesn't that say or seem to say that the Father makes the decision, and I cannot come unless He says yes, and therefore it would seem, sometimes He says no or perhaps, I cannot even try to come unless He does something? Maybe my free will is not quite as simple as I think!

I feel like it's not so much to indicate lack of free will as it is to indicate God's grace, generosity, and sovereign power. We continue to exist and breathe air because God grants it to us. That doesn't at all negate our decisions to consciously breathe.

I feel like that interpretation of it being an expression of grace rather than a negation of free will is more in line with John 3:16, which is very inclusive and inviting in its language.

[Selah7]

It is God’s irresistible and all-sufficient GRACE that brings a person to a believing faith in Christ.  …and we know that without faith, it is impossible to please Him.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

- Ephesians 2:8-9 

[Not me]

15 hours ago, angeleyesGBU said:

What I am thinking, is that God invites everyone to come to Jesus. I am certain I can make that case from the Bible. In that verse, I am tempted to think that is as much as God has made that invitation,  that permission is implied. It that is the situation, well, I am missing something.

Hi, hope this helps and encourages;

I think this is Christ in you teaching you, for scripture says; ‘the sum of thy word is truth’… . Be blessed in your rightfully dividing of that sum… 

For it is true, in Christ has the Father drawn all to Him, for where else is the drawing of God found but in Christ..? 

As for free will; one does not have a will unless it is free, for if it is not free, one has no will… 

As for choosing Christ or no, scripture says God has put only two things before man, fire or water, that is, life or death…. But in these two choices are all choices, if one chooses life (Christ) that one has Christ and everything that is Christ’s is theirs…. If one does not choose Christ, one chooses all that Christ is not, or the contrary to life, which is death, and all that death has in it becomes that one’s…

Therefore does God tell one which one to choose, that that one might live, henceforth the drawing of God….

But man must with their will choose God, the doing is yet another issue… ‘For the will is present with me but the doing I find not’…

This separates the willing and the doing into two separate categories, one is in man’s purview, the other in God’s… But the one subject to God’s purview is itself subject to man’s will towards it, because man is free to choose life or death in all the circumstances of life… Therefore is the choice of God found in all things, as there is a righteousness to be expressed in all things, therefore will the choosing of Christ by faith in all things, be found to be the choosing of life in all things…

Hope it helps and points to Christ as He continues to draw you to Himself, as you continue to choose Him by faith, the fruit of which, is He continuing to increase in you…

 

A fellow believer, Not me 

[Hopefully]

I don’t believe God would punish people for doing bad things if it’s not people who chose to do those things.

 I don’t believe God would reward people for believing in him if it’s not us who choose to believe. 

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Angeleyes

 I've been tossing this around for decades-lol It is mind boggling, isn't it?! Well, I know I have free will just be cause there have been some things I chose to do in my life in spite of God Saying" Don't,don't, wrong, bad decision, turn around,stop, halt,NO!' And my poor choices cost me..... God Knew I would,Allowed me to and always Helped me with the pickle I put myself in.....

 I love not men's reply btw- beautifully said, I would agree 100% with his explanation

Yes,I believe our Heavenly Fathers foreknowledge is why we have such a hard time comprehending these things.... God Knows our heart before we were even born,He Knew Adam would fall that day in the Garden but I cannot believe He would create a man for hell- His Word Says it is not so, hell is for the angels.  

My God Loves man,that's Who He is- He is not a man that He could lie - He Knows who chose death and who chooses life, He puts those who have chosen life into Jesus Hands( John 3:16) before we made the choice( in time)

 How do we rationalize a God Who is not bound by the constraints of space & time as we only know a tick tocking clock in out tiny temporal world?

With love in Christ, Kwik

 

[Ray12614]

Interesting topic. Once a minister of an main-line denomination (I won't mention which one) that believed that everything that happens is predestined to happen (those who God chooses to save will be saved, and therefore no need for evangelism) was leaving his church, when he lost his footing and fell down the steps of his church. When he got to the bottom, he got up and brushed himself off and said "Thank God that is over with".

Its a silly little joke about this nameless denomination, but, does illustrate that God's pre-knowledge does not equate to His pre-destination and it is really silly for us to think that we are mindless puppets of events yet to come with no say in how everything turns out.

(my opinion  . . . .  )   Ray . . . 

[Heleadethme]

As far as I understand it, I think "choosing" is not quite the same thing as being willing.  All we brought to the table was willingness when God came calling.  And He often paves the way through life circumstances that help us to become willing.  David prayed for "a willing spirit".   When the Lord comes to us we can either resist the Spirit or yield to Him (being willing to believe/receive/obey Him).  I think it was to  the Jewish religious leaders (or the Pharisees?) that Jesus said, "Ye do always resist the spirit."

I might be willing to suffer for His name, if it were to come to me in the will of the Lord, but that doesn't mean I would generally deliberately go out and choose circumstances that make me suffer on purpose.  Willingness is passive, it's a yielding, whereas choosing is active.  And when you think about it, how could a lost soul really "choose" Jesus unless they first knew Him?

[Hopefully]

“Tell me this one thing: How did you receive the Spirit? Did you receive the Spirit by following the law? No, you received the Spirit because you heard the message about Jesus and believed it. You began your life in Christ with the Spirit. Now do you try to complete it by your own power? That is foolish.
 

Does God give you the Spirit because you follow the law? Does God work miracles among you because you follow the law? No, God gives you his Spirit and works miracles among you because you heard the message about Jesus and believed it.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:2-3, 5‬ ‭
 

I think a lost soul can hear the word of God and choose to believe it, then God does the rest.

[Not me]

2 hours ago, Hopefully said:

I don’t believe God would punish people for doing bad things if it’s not people who chose to do those things.

 I don’t believe God would reward people for believing in him if it’s not us who choose to believe. 

For God is righteous in all He does…

Be blessed in that righteousness, Not me