Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Ha.  The only evidence that will help you is showing from Scripture that NOT ALL believers belong to Him.  Because that is what your opinion is.

In your opinion.

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

If Paul was of your mind, he would have written 1 Cor 15:23 this way:  "some of those who belong to Him".

He could have written "ALL of those who belong to Him", but that would just be repetitive.  To say "those who belong to Him" obviously includes ALL of those who belong to Him.

It is obvious you have taken 1 Cor 15:23 to mean 'all believers belong to Him' when 1 Cor 15:23 is about who is resurrected when the time comes. 

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What you have is NO evidence at all.  Lots of opinions, though.

You're right.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

While not what my focus will here be, what you say in the latter part of your middle sentence is an example.  Where do you get that "most are found written in the Book of Life"? 

That is based on my hope in His mercy for all who appear at the GWT. 

The text says, "...IF a name was NOT found..." I hope the IF, THEN operator is a rarity.

At the sheep and goats many were surprised they entered in as it was what they did for Jesus, the smallest thing, that justified. 

Of course I don't know for certain most will be found in the Book of Life, but I don't wish eternal torment on anyone. That's the scariest thing I can think of. 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Turning to what I most want to focus upon, you state, "The rest of the dead wait till the 1000 years are finished and pass before the GWT..."  Do you believe this concerning Enoch?  Remember that he "walked with God: and he was not;  for God took him" (Gen. 5:24).  Where do you believe God took him?  Backing up, what about Abel?  He is mentioned just before Enoch in Hebrews 11, where it reads that he "offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous" (vs. 4).  While he was not taken in the manner that Enoch was, do you believe God allowed him to go where Enoch was?  What about Noah?  In Hebrews 11, he is mentioned next, after Enoch, and it is said of him that "he became heir of the righteousness which is by faith" (vs. 7).  Do you believe God allowed him to go where Enoch was?  What about Daniel and Job, whom God esteems on the highest level, with Noah (Ezek. 14:14)?  And Adam, though nothing is mentioned of him in this regard, do you think God allowed him to go where his son and closest descendants went?

The real questions of this thread as stated in the OP are, Who is Resurrected and When? Those questions are in the context of of what Rev 7:14 clearly states, as well as what is written in Rev 20:4-6. 

We could deal with the question you have in another thread that isn't this one. What you propose here is more like, "Where do Believers go When They Die?", or "Are the OT Saints in Heaven?"

I want to know who is resurrected to live and reign with Christ for 1000 years. I don't think OT saints and where they are answer that question. 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Do you believe what you are saying when it comes to those who died and were "gathered to [their] people"?  Like Abraham (Gen. 25:8), or Isaac (Gen. 35:29), or Jacob (Gen. 49:33)?  What about Aaron (Num. 20:24), or Moses (Num. 27:13)?  Can we not rightly suppose that this would be the case for all who were (and are) "Abraham's seed" (Gal. 3:29)?  Are you believing that being "gathered to [their] people means grave wise?  Or, would this mean being actually "gathered to [their] people",  like where Enoch, Abel, and Noah were, which were their people?

What about Elijah (II Kg. 2:1, 11)?  If he or any of the foregoing are destined to yet stand before God at the GWTJ, what would the reason be?  I mean, are you believing that they went on to Heaven, but they are going to be judged later concerning whether they get to stay there or not?

I do wonder about this and have asked others to start a discussion, there probably is one somewhere on Worthy. It's not pithy, imo, to what's written in Rev 20:4; 

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands.

And THEY came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

The only THEY here is the beheaded and the overcomers of the beast. No OT saints, no church age. This is the support for the questions, Who? and When? Can we just please deal with this without all the emotional pleas? 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Are you perhaps thinking that there is some difference that I am missing because the case was unique with Enoch and Elijah?  If so, what about the others already mentioned?  Or, what do you do with Moses being seen with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3-4)?  What is it that you feel detracts from what Scripture is clearly supporting?  More inclusive than what we have seen so far, in Jesus' reply to the Sadducees, "touching the resurrection of the dead" He asked them, "have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob?  God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Matt. 22:31-32).  So, where do you believe Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and all "the living" are now?  Where is it that they are "living"?

So? People are in heaven. A bunch of people have lived and died and gone to heaven. I don't dispute that. 

How does that relate to Who is Resurrected and When? In the context of the Revelation of Jesus Christ and who lives and reigns with Him for 1000 years?

It doesn't. It's just a distraction. 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Are you seeing any dots that need to be connected here?  The account says, "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (vs. 59).  To where do you believe his spirit would have been received?  Paul speaks to this.  First of all, he says, "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord" (II Cor. 5:6).  Then he continues, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:8).

Yeah I see dots. Like the ones that connect who lives and reigns with Christ for 1000 years with the beheaded and overcomers in Rev 20:4-6. 

I never said people didn't go to heaven, didn't live in heaven, weren't taken to heaven when they died, and were not, or are not, in the presence of Christ currently. You are once again making up arguments that do not fit, from evidence I have not offered, to prove some point that isn't a part of the OP, the thread, the discussion; and fails to deal with the question of, Who lives and reigns with Christ for 1000 years?; determinedly ignoring everything I post as evidence. 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

In consideration of what you have been wrestling with in Revelation 20, what do you make of the 144,000 in chapter 14?  When they die, they are seen in Heaven (vss. 1-3).  What about the 70th Week martyrs in chapter 15?  When they die, they are seen in Heaven (vss. 2-4).  Are you believing that it is only these---or mostly these---whose souls will go on to Heaven when they die?

You keep up with the same question over and over expecting to trip me up and get an acceptable response. The only thing I care about in this thread is; Who is Resurrected and When? to live and reign with Christ for 1000 years, in the context of Rev 20:4-6.

How many times have I asked for this line of discussion to stay on topic? Over three times previous to this reply. 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

I have often likened prophecies of the last days to prophetic puzzle pieces that are meant to fit together.  My impression in the course of this thread is that much too often, there are pieces being looked at---the same pieces---over and over and over---but never being joined to their other related pieces.  Even if we have all the pieces of a puzzle laying before us, if we only look at them and keep examining them and pointing out their peculiar shapes---without ever putting them together with the other related pieces---we never get any closer to seeing the puzzle come together.  Never.  All I'm trying to do Diaste is help with the assembling of the pieces.

The problem is the whirlwind of unrelated data and off topic arguments. 

Personally I have never said there is no one in heaven nor that people don't go to heaven, that people who have died are not in the presence of Christ right now, as I type. I never said that if one isn't taken in the primary resurrection they are all condemned, YOU say that. I do not.

If you can find related evidence that fits with Rev 20:4,

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands.

And THEY came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.",

suggesting THEY means 'all from all time' and not just, as the text above clearly states, the beheaded and overcomers, please do so. 

Continually stating believers died and went to heaven to be with Christ from ages past to this day has no bearing on who lives and reigns with Jesus in the millennial kingdom. 

Sure there are people in heaven, they ones you listed and many, many more. How does that equate with what Rev 20:4 says about who lives and reign with Jesus in the Kingdom?

Please, make the connection with written text that adds 'all from all time' to Rev 20:4.

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Diaste

[truth7t7]

8 minutes ago, Diaste said:

And THEY came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

The only THEY here is the beheaded and the overcomers of the beast. No OT saints, no church age. This is the support for the questions, Who? and When? Can we just please deal with this without all the emotional pleas?

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life

2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Your continued claim of two resurrections that are 1,000 years apart for the righteous-wicked is "False", the righteous and wicked are both resurrected at the same voice before your eyes, read God's truth again and again read

I read God's Word over and over.  And I have never found anything close to what you keep claiming.  There are 2 resurrections and Rev 20 says the one when Jesus returns is the FIRST one.  Not difficult to understand.  Then there will be a 1,000 year period, called the MK, and then the next resurrection, which will be all the unsaved.  And then the GWT judgment, and then the eternal state.

your view requires you to reject Rev 20, which is very plainly written and is literal.

2 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Do you really think for a minute you have readers convinced of your teaching, when God's words before your eyes are screaming otherwise

1 Samuel 15:23(a)

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. 

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Regarding 1 Sam 15:23, your views can be categorized as "doctrines of demons" per 1 Tim 4:1.  

Regarding John 5:28,29 they are summary verses.  Describing both resurrections.

If there will be just one resurrection, and all humans will appear, then Rev 20 cannot be  true in any sense.  

I will stick with the Bible.  You may accept whatever doctrines of demons you want.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

FreeGrace said: 

double click failed.  How many times do you need these questions answered?  Are you paying attention.  "those who belong to Him" are all who are saved.  And you still haven't proven otherwise.  You need to explain carefully WHY any group of saved people would NOT be included in that phrase.  But you don't.

No, I do not. You think I do. It's just a dodge. It's fine. I understand. 

Yes, you do.  You are the dodger here.  You dodging reveals that you can't explain how any believer wouldn't fit the phrase "those who belong to Him".

So there is no reason to accept your claims.  You have no evidence.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

  FreeGrace said: 

Pretty clear to me, just as "those who belong to Him" is very clear.  Anyone who has "come out of the Great Tribulation" refers to believers.

Believers who came from a certain time under certain conditions, you're almost there.

I've been there for a long time.  You're the one who is not.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

ALL souls belong to Him.

Still dodging and missing the point.  1 Cor 15 is about the resurrection of saved people.  And all saved people belong to Him.  Which you aren't willing to accept, yet, at the same time, you are unable to explain why they aren't.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

You keep adding ALL. Show the evidence of ALL. Must be written somewhere.

Since I'm exploring Who and When in the context of Rev 7 and Rev 20 that question doesn't come up. Perhaps start a Topic. 

The issue is solved in 1 Cor 15:23 where Paul was clear about who will be resurrected "when He comes" at the Second Advent.  All believers.  I've already explained why the phrase is ALL inclusive, but you are being stubborn because it steps on your theological toes or something.

And you can't/won't explain how there will be believers who don't fit the phrase who will be resurrected at some other time.

The burden is on YOU to prove that "those who belong to Him" does NOT include all saved people.  And you failed.

[truth7t7]

26 minutes ago, Diaste said:

 

And THEY came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

The only THEY here is the beheaded and the overcomers of the beast. No OT saints, no church age. This is the support for the questions, Who? and When? Can we just please deal with this without all the emotional pleas? 

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?

2.) Physical Earthly Throne?

3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

It is obvious you have taken 1 Cor 15:23 to mean 'all believers belong to Him' when 1 Cor 15:23 is about who is resurrected when the time comes.

All reasonable believers take that verse to refer to all saved people, since the entire chapter is about the resurrection of saved people.  And you can't explain how there can be any saved people who don't fit the description of "those who belong to Him".  It is your claim that is radical and irrational.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

You're right.

Great response to my claim that you are just  full of opinions and no evidence.

Of course I'm right.

[truth7t7]

49 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The issue is solved in 1 Cor 15:23 where Paul was clear about who will be resurrected "when He comes" at the Second Advent.  

Paul is very clear, and at this time of the second coming and resurrection Paul writes big words that you deny are present, and will Bend, twist, and tear God's words of truth before your eyes 

"Then Cometh The End"

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Edited February 25, 2023 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

25 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Regarding John 5:28,29 they are summary verses.  Describing both resurrections.

If there will be just one resurrection, and all humans will appear, then Rev 20 cannot be  true in any sense.  

God's word below that proves your claims of the righteous and wicked resurrections being 1,000 years apart is "False"

As you bend, twist, and tear God's words of truth below "Scary"!

"All" that are in the Graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth "All"!

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Edited February 25, 2023 by truth7t7