Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Selah7]

16 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Keep in mind the 'first' resurrection isn't the first. Several people were resurrected in the NT, 3 by Jesus. Jesus is resurrected and with Him many who appeared to witnesses in the 1st century. The only way the Rev 20:5 is the first in order is it's before the resurrection of the 2nd death 1000 years later. 

The first resurrection IS the first.  See, there’s a BIG difference between the resurrection of the body and the resurrection of the soul to immortality.  

 

 

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, Uriah said:

On 2/3/2023 at 3:11 AM, Diaste said:

Asking certain questions is a bit of a habit for me.

My question is; why would scriptures oppose other scriptures instead of building themselves together?

I don't think they do. Unless the contradiction is clear and opposing statements are made, or prohibitions in place, then there is no opposition. 

Because a sporting event is on TV doesn't mean no other sporting events are taking place. The ones being broadcast are of a primary importance. In the forefront, widely applicable. Same with the protos resurrection; at the forefront, wide in scope, not a abrogation of any other special purpose, promise fulfilling resurrection, unless there is a prohibition against such. 

There isn't any that I know of. 

I see nothing wrong with this. We limit ourselves and our thinking and understanding. We don't listen. Me included, as recent experience proves.

With man it is not possible, with God, all things are possible. 

12 hours ago, Uriah said:

On 2/3/2023 at 4:09 AM, Diaste said:

I mean that this is an event after the Return.

You mean AT the return?  There are reliable truths evident in the other.

It's not clear, as I said. At least not to me. Maybe you have the insight and I'm just missing it. 

Nothing happens until the return. Jesus descends from above first, then it all begins. So in that sense it's after the return, even if it's in the next nanosecond or a half hour, or 1000 years later. 

Indeed the hour is coming when all in the graves will hear His voice; this is fact. What is not clear is When?, or even the exact how it will occur.

It's taken to mean every dead person in the grave from all time will hear His voice all at the same time/space moment. That certainly could be the case. But if half heard His voice at His return and rose, and the other half heard His voice 1000 years later, then the time indeed came when ALL heard His voice. This is also a possibility. 

We tend to interpret 'hour' as 60 minutes out of a 24 hour period. It's ingrained in our slavery to time in our daily lives. But it's always how 'hour' should be viewed. 

We already know there are two resurrections 1000 years apart. In the primary resurrection it's said, " And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God....And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

It's certain these people were dead. Yes? If they came back to life did they hear Jesus' voice and rise from the grave? Yes.

One thousand years later...

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne....The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

Can we assume these also heard His voice and were raised from the dead? Yes.

Two groups who heard His voice and rose from the grave separated by 1000 years. The time when all in the graves heard His voice came as foretold, just not how we think it should be. 

 

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, Uriah said:

The "rest of the dead", live after the 1k yrs. which I take to be any who died in that time period and immediately at His coming to slay the enemy armies.

The reason this can't be the only dead is two fold scripturally:

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb...

13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And,

 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.

In the first above it's only those who came out from within GT, as said by the elder, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation;", that's not 'all from all time'.

In the 2nd passage it's only those with the described attributes. This is even more narrow and specific a group than in Rev 7. 

If then, the group in Rev 20 is only people with a specific set of attributes, attributes that could only be attained when the beast exists and holds power and authority, then any other of the dead cannot hold these same attributes, hence, they are not resurrected at this time. 

Which in turn means all the dead from all time, except for those specifically taken up as described as coming out from within GT, and those beheaded[this could be from all time],and those who refused the beast's authority[this can only happen when the beast exists, no other time period is possible], are resurrected after the 1000 years.

 

 

[Selah7]

12 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

The first resurrection IS the first.  See, there’s a BIG difference between the resurrection of the body and the resurrection of the soul to immortality.  

 

 

Recap:

When Jesus Christ comes back at the last trump, two distinct things will happen. 

The first is that we are ALL "raised up" or "changed" from flesh bodies to spiritual bodies—from corruptible flesh to incorruptible spirit—and this applies to everyone, both the good and the bad. 

The second event is known as the First Resurrection to Eternal Life. The saints are "resurrected" to the status of IMMORTALITY.   

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Mat 25:31- When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Well there's one. It can be seen in Mat 24 as well. 

Mat 24:30- And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

As side note; do you think His elect are only those alive?

Rev 11:15- And the seventh angel sounded; and there voices in heaven saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;     and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18- And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

1Th 4:16- For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

These things cannot happen without a resurrection. The people listed above are all inclusive. No restriction is put into this proclamation. It is for, the dead.

You are correct in that there is no restriction here. Neither is there specific scope. However, when coupled with "“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation;

and

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands." The specific scope of the primary resurrection becomes apparent. 

The resurrected at this point were in the GT, beheaded, or refused the beast's authority. It's not every dead person. So in light of this then 'the dead in Christ' have to fit the above or it's creating a contradiction in prophecy. 

It's really a lack of context, imo. Paul is saying the dead in Christ will rise before the living are taken up at the return of Christ during the gathering. Paul isn't commenting on the scope of the resurrection of the dead, but only instructing on the order of the gathering. 

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Jhn 5:28- Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29- And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jhn 6:40- And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

Jhn 12:48- He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

What last day?

Indeed. What is the last day? It's an interesting question. I have my thoughts about it, what are yours?

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Jde 1:6- And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own  habitation, own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness  unto the judgment of the great day.

Rev 6:17- For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Zep 1:14- The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

 Zep 1:15-  That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

 Mar 10:30- But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and  brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life

There is a world to come. It has to have a first day. It starts here:

Rev 11:15- And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven,  saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of  his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever 

Mat 25:34- Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

There are no exclusions, all are treated the same at the same time.

I didn't say there were exclusions. There are nuances. Not the same thing.

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

BTW, I believe "coming" and "appearing" are used interchangeably 

 

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Selah7 said:

At death of the flesh, everyone goes to heaven.

Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

- Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 (KJV)

This could be it's own topic. I'd like to discuss it as I have some questions.

 

[Diaste]

34 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

The first resurrection IS the first.  See, there’s a BIG difference between the resurrection of the body and the resurrection of the soul to immortality.  

Oh?

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb!”

11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb

These about the throne of God in heaven that came out of GT are not immortal? They can stand about the throne before the Lamb, the elders and the four living creatures and not have spiritual immortality?

Hmm...

[Selah7]

16 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Oh?

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb!”

11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb

These about the throne of God in heaven that came out of GT are not immortal? They can stand about the throne before the Lamb, the elders and the four living creatures and not have spiritual immortality?

Hmm...

but, wait a minute … This is prophecy … The seventh trump hasn’t even sounded yet!  Right?

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I insist on understanding

Ok. Since you choose "protos" in this case to be defined  as essentially "choicest" we should look at the technical aspect.

The KJV translates Strong's G4413 in the following manner: first (84x), chief (9x), first day (2x), former (2x), miscellaneous (7x).

first in time or place

in any succession of things or persons

first in rank

influence, honour

chief

principal

first, at the first

†πρῶτος prōtos, pro'-tos; contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance):—before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former

Below is the word that is referred to above. But first I'll continue with "protos."

β. with the article: (ὁ (ἡ, τό) πρῶτος (πρώτη, πρῶτον), in a series which is so complete, either in fact or in thought, that other members are conceived of as following the first in regular order; as..... (a list of scripture references among which is) : Revelation 20:5, 6

2. first in rank, influence, honor; chief; principal: without the article, and absolutely, πρῶτος chief:...... (this section excludes Rev 20:5, 6) 

Now to the word that protos is a contraction of (G4253)

The KJV translates Strong's G4253 in the following manner: before (44x), above (2x), above ... ago (1x), or ever (1x).

before

πρό pró, pro; a primary preposition; "fore", i.e. in front of, prior (figuratively, superior) to:—above, ago, before, or ever.

So is it figurative? No. It is directly tied to its context pertaining another resurrection and SECOND death.

It is worth noting that all previous instances in scripture of someone being raised to life, excluding Jesus, thus far in history (two witnesses are future) have the element of another person involved. This is in contrast to the first resurrection.

Mat 27 has doubtful grounds as being a resurrection.

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I do think you should start a thread with the title "Where do we go when we die?" or, "Do dead believers go to Heaven immediately?" or something similar.

 I'd be interested as I have a few questions on that topic. 

There's probably a thread already somewhere.

It's beyond the scope here, imo. 

So, IS the question you are really asking here more of a 

Who will be resurrected

to serve IN THE TEMPLE vs AT THE GATE

or 

to be a vessel of gold and honor vs wood and dishonor?

or

IF the man who was given 10 talents is going to be ruling and reigning with Christ while the man who was given the 2 talents will be left to wait? 

or  

IF someone fed to the lions as a Christian is as worthy as someone who died in the final generation/last week to rule and reign with Christ for the Lords Day?



If so maybe a change in the title to

Who is resurrected when and for what purpose

or

is God a respecter of persons and times or not?

or

is the first resurrection of a 'special' class of 'the saved' 


Because I am addressing the Who is resurrected and the When,

I just don't agree with 

the LIVING being the DEAD 'who are raised up' when Christ returns (having been raised up and returning with Him)  

over the DEAD actually being the DEAD who NEED to be raised up having never been raised up before. 


I wouldn't join in on a conversation that is trying to separate 'the never die saved but die and remain dead rising up' at Christs return from 'the never die saved but die and remain dead remaining dead not rising up' until the GWTJ (wow, talk about words I never would have guessed I would ever write)

knowing God will be joining the 2 sticks into one 


Do I have that right?  you classify the never die LIVING as 'the dead' that rise when Christ returns

and

are trying to figure in that only some of the never die living 'DEAD' will rise from the dead

while the rest of the never die living but 'dead' won't rise but will be remaining 'dead' along with the actual dead for the Lords day also?
(a question I never thought I would ask)