Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Selah7 said:

The dead in Christ are those Christians who have left their fleshly bodies behind and whose spirits have returned to the Lord (Ecclesiastes 12:7).  These will be returning with Christ when He comes.  Yes?

This is a question for which I do not have a great answer. 

On the one hand I think, "Yes, of course."

But then I wonder about the Matt 25:31-46 judgement. Did the sheep already go to be with the Lord? I have the same question about Rev 20:11-15.

There is the thief on the cross. He was told he would be in paradise that day. 

There are the martyrs under the altar in Rev 6, they are called souls.

In Rev 20:4-6 John saw 'souls' and 'they came to life'. Just what does that mean? 

Also, why would there be any trepidation about the dead and their destiny at the 'last day' if every believer was with the Lord already? 

I haven't studied this out but I do have a message in to a friend so I can discuss it with him. 

For now, I would say the 1st resurrection at the 2nd advent is of those so described in Rev 7:9-14 and Rev 20:4. If their spirits are with Jesus and only the bodies resurrected, and the spirit and body reunited at that time, I can't say for sure. Were their spirits asleep as Paul seems to suggest in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15?

And why would Paul say they sleep? Do spirits and souls sleep? How would this be if the spirit was already with Jesus in heaven?

This isn't the topic here but it is very interesting to me.

 

 

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

For some odd reason, you have this unfavorable opinion of the resurrected flesh, not recognizing that the resurrected flesh is like Adam's ORIGINAL flesh, with the added benefit of being incorruptible and immortal!

NO, it is NOT the same as ADAMS FLESH. Adam was flesh and blood.  


There will be NO BLOOD in the spiritual body for JESUS IS THE LIFE, and our flesh and bone body will be made in the heavens NOT OF THE DUST OF THE EARTH.  (not saying the 'earth' is not made from the heavens though)

"For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off." Leviticus 17:14 KJV


Where you get the IDEA that I believe the spiritual world is not tangible or without substance AND FORM, I HAVE NO IDEA, but am sure you won't say it again now that you know.   

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,

we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 

Yet I do agree that DNA is the 'seed' God uses, so we remain in the same IMAGE as we had, have and will have.


FLESH AND BLOOD can not inherit...iow, NOT LIKE ADAM. 

We will be like the angels in HEAVEN iow NOT LIKE ADAM.  

What is 'strange' flesh to us now, won't be then.  


"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;" Hebrews 2:14 KJV


As for 'dead flesh' resurrecting...into a 'glorified' body I think these should clear up those thoughts

"And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body, or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days." Numbers 19:16 KJV


"And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of the LORD in his appointed season among the children of Israel?" Numbers 9:7 KJV


"Neither shall he go in to any dead body, nor defile himself for his father, or for his mother;" Leviticus 21:11 KJV

"He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days." Numbers 19:11 KJV


13Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.


"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." Galatians 5:17 KJV
 

[Selah7]

59 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

People who DON'T AGREE WITH YOU don't necessarily need to get a better understanding of the words.  They just DON'T AGREE WITH YOU.  

I have a VERY good understanding of the words and how they change ACCORDING TO CONTEXT or precept on precept....So

It is not that I am 'not thinking straight', it is that I AM NOT THINKING like you., 

I follow the Holy Spirit's leading and guiding in the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, while you stick with the letter, the grammar, the word definitions of the letter, for what you follow,

So AGAIN, 

WE approach 'what is written' in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY manner.  I go by precept on precept, precept on precept...., and allow the Spirit of Truth to guide me and help build upon the foundation,

while You, use word 'definitions' and dissection of the letter and follow those beliefs.

So it is impossible for us to agree.  

I use the definitions to help give more clarity to the CONTEXT, not the other way around.

That is why I understand 

1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Which is why I do my best to NEVER make those kinds of statements that you have already made twice on just this one page...Wow




 

Absolutely right.  

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Selah7 said:

God knows. 

So then what? He sends out emails? 

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles"

So year after year the Lord tells the people what time of year it is? Sure; by there still being days so the people can count the weeks and months and years. 

Clearly there are still clouds in the sky in the Kingdom at that time; "And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; "

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

There is the thief on the cross. He was told he would be in paradise that day. 

and so he was.  Do you know what paradise is?

…

addendum:  You might want to check out Luke 16:19-26.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Selah7

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Yes, it’s very profound!  Jesus returns, it’s the end of grace, and it’s the end of the flesh.

In the millennium, we are in our spiritual bodies.

Not everyone. 
"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem..."

These are not spirits or spiritual bodies. So it's not the end of grace or the flesh.

Those resurrected at the 2nd advent participating in the 1st resurrection will be transformed, as it is written. But that isn't everyone. 

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Not everyone. 
"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem..."

These are not spirits or spiritual bodies. So it's not the end of grace or the flesh.

Those resurrected at the 2nd advent participating in the 1st resurrection will be transformed, as it is written. But that isn't everyone. 

Yikes!  For real? 
 

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV)

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Selah7

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, grahampaul said:

i say again 1john 3v2.

Shalom, grahampaul.

I know what the Scriptures say, and that is why I continue to admonish my brothers and sisters in the Lord. Yochanan ("John") was quite thorough in this passage. Let's open it up and see the whole:

1 John 3:1-11 (KJV)

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called "the sons of God!": therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we "the sons of God," and it doth not yet appear (it is not yet made clear) what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested (He was made clear [to Israel], see John 1:31) to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested (was made clear), that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

This is what Yochanan wrote, but then Sha'uwl surnamed "Paulus" after his benefactor, Sergius Paulus (See Acts 13:4-12.), wrote what he wrote to the called-out group of Korinth, a city in Greece, made the provincial capitol of Greece under the Roman Empire.

So, in Paul's treatise on the Resurrection, he gave us a little more information than Yochanan did. We may not know everything there is to know about the Resurrection, but we know quite a bit more because of Paul's work!

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Yikes!  For real? 
 

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV)

Shalom, Selah7.

This is true for those who SLEEP in the Messiah, not for the unbelievers! The "all" here is NOT all-inclusive! It is "all" who sleep in the Messiah and for all who belong to the Messiah who do not yet sleep. In other words, they are still alive when the Messiah returns!

[Selah7]

55 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Selah7.

This is true for those who SLEEP in the Messiah, not for the unbelievers! The "all" here is NOT all-inclusive! It is "all" who sleep in the Messiah and for all who belong to the Messiah who do not yet sleep. In other words, they are still alive when the Messiah returns!

Again we disagree. It is at the 7th (last) trump when Paul says that this change will take place.  This is the very last trump and it is the precise moment when Jesus Christ will return to earth to establish His Millennium kingdom.  All will be changed.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Selah7
added 1 Corinthians 15:51-52