Who is Resurrected, and When?

[not an echo]

On 11/6/2022 at 10:45 AM, Diaste said:

This is what I'm getting at. Exactly what group is this that reigns with Him for 1000 years? Logically for the dead in Christ to rise it's not necessary that all of them rise. That's the most popular interpretation but there's that sticky qualifier in Rev 20:4-5. I don't know what to do with that at this point. 

Continuing from my previous post (page 122, post 8), the following is a copy & paste of part of my statement of faith from My Testimony and More (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252050-my-testimony-and-more/).  As you will see Diaste, it relates to questions and comments you have expressed in the course of your thread and hopefully it will make for a good lead in to some other things I would like to point out...

====================

"I BELIEVE that when Christ comes again, He will rule and reign upon this earth as the King of kings and Lord of lords---for a literal thousand years (Rev. 20:1-6).  During this time, God will fulfill His covenant promises to the Israelite nation, and Christians will experience the rewards of their faithfulness to Christ.  Realize, the estate of God's children in Heaven is a gift of God, and will be equal for all, for all of eternity, as reflected in Revelation chapters 21-22.  But, the estate of God's children during Christ's Millennial Reign will vary greatly, for it is a reward, based upon what we have done for God's Kingdom purposes in this life, as reflected in Jesus' parables of the talents (Matt. 25:14-23ff), and the pounds (Lk. 19:11-19ff), and Paul's words concerning rewards (I Cor. 3:12-15).  In my concept of what Scripture teaches, all of God's children during Christ's Reign will have it far better than anyone in this present experience of life---but there is a concern.  Consider:  We who have been born-again have been made "new creatures" inwardly, in our souls.  And, during Christ's Reign, we will be in our new, glorified bodies.  This means that during Christ's Reign, we will be in a glorified state, both inwardly and outwardly.  But, we will still have our memories.  We will have our memories until that time that God "wipes away" all tears from our eyes and anything in our minds that would cause us sorrow in our eternity (Rev. 21:4-5).  This, however, will not happen until after Christ's Reign and the judgment of the unsaved at the Last Judgment (Rev. 20).  So, while our estate during Christ's Reign will be as royalty (Rev. 20:6), a thousand years is a long time for one to wish he or she had been more faithful or obedient.  This is something to seriously think about that most of God's children have thought nothing about."

====================

In light of what I shared in my previous post and things related to the above, I cannot see support that only those who are saved as a result of rejecting the beast's rule will join Christ in His Millennial Reign.  The tenor of Jesus' parables of the talents and the pounds mentioned above bespeaks that His words held as much meaning for His listeners then as for us now.  Not mentioned above, but just as pertinent is what Jesus told His disciples in response to a question asked of Him by Peter.  Consider from Matthew 19...

27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. (like the icing on the cake! )

30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Remaining mindful of what I pointed out in my preceding post, consider afresh John's words to those that were a part of the seven churches in Asia.  From Revelation 1...

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from Him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the Prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

6 And hath made US kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Continuing, in Revelation 4-5 John tells of the invite he received to the place of God's throne in Heaven where he took part in the ceremony that was for the purpose of conferring to the Lamb the charge of the Seven Sealed Book.  At the climax of the ceremony, all the saved that were in Heaven at that time---which would have included all from Adam until the time of John's invite---praised the Lamb thus, as recorded in chapter five...

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

What I am pointing out connects with part of what will happen during the period heralded by the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, as shown in the overview of this period.  The part I am speaking of concerns the "reward" of having part in Christ's Millennial Reign.  Consider afresh from Revelation 11...

18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Making the tie in with what I have already shown, it is during the 7th Trumpet period that the event of Christ's Second Advent will take place, of which John wrote these words from chapter 17 (which I previously pointed out)...

14 These (speaking of the beast and those in league with him) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are WITH HIM are called, and chosen, and faithful.

All of this interlocks with and enhances the prophetic picture of which John writes in Revelation 20:4-6.  I don't find anything revealed in Scripture that suggests otherwise.  As you assemble the prophetic puzzle pieces, the portion of the picture that we are looking at becomes clearer and clearer.  Unless, of course, you have the grouping before you upside down or side ways.  I've seen this happen many times when working on common puzzles.  Sometimes the addition of just one or two more pieces helps us to see that we have been looking at a portion that we need to turn right side up.  Then, a lot of things start coming together much better.

More to come...

(page 128, post 2)

Edited March 11, 2023 by not an echo
add post info

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Good morning, sis 

… but I believe that it isn’t “just the alive and remaining who overcame and endured to the end” that are changed. All will be changed when Christ returns.  Yes? 

(I don’t believe in a pretrib rapture, so 1 Corinthians 15:52 works for me as “it is written.”)

How everyone will change?

Christ returns and

1. those who have taken the mark, become bird food so THEY HAVE CHANGED as they have become a part of the DEAD

2. sickle thrust in the vine of earth into winepress so THEY HAVE CHANGED as they have become a part of the DEAD

3. the remnant have been killed with the sword so THEY HAVE CHANGED as they have become a part of the DEAD

4. the tares have been taken and burned  so THEY HAVE CHANGED as they have become a part of the DEAD

And we know the 'dead' are resurrected, so they rise up from the corruption of the earth, so they too have changed.  

 

LEAVING the ones who have overcome and endured to the end.  AND NOW they are changed


SO I agree, ALL are changed in one way or the other, just not all in the same way.  


As for pre trib, I am just not even addressing it anymore, unless I am forced to.  I just put forth what I see written and since nothing is actually written of it and it doesn't fit with anything, I just ignore it and try to put forth a CLEAR path easy to follow that proves it for what it isn't and what it is.    

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

You back up to Rev 19:19 in the search for an antecedent but there isn't a connection from 19:19 to 20:4. The warriors in Rev 19:19-21 kill millions or more. I don't see this behavior as tantamount to being seated on thrones and given authority to judge. 

But as for the LEADER of the battle, no problem?  Not following that line of thinking.  Must be some demand coming from else where.   Maybe another trip through the old might be in order for some deeper understanding...so the thoughts aren't so carnal...and the spiritual truth might come forth....

Remember any of these?  Remember Gods reasons for the instructions He gave?  Remember what happened when they weren't obeyed? 

Just the first things that came to mind as I read the post


4And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.  Ez 9

God, the same, without any turning.  We 


"And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will." Acts 13:22 KJV


Which MATTERS when building His house, as we read here, but none the less TO MAKE BROAD SWEEPING STATEMENTS that those who are soldiers cant rule and reign because of it is ???

5And David said, Solomon my son is young and tender, and the house that is to be builded for the LORD must be exceeding magnifical, of fame and of glory throughout all countries: I will therefore now make preparation for it. So David prepared abundantly before his death.

6Then he called for Solomon his son, and charged him to build an house for the LORD God of Israel.

7And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God:

8But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.

frustrating, to say the least.


"No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier." 2 Timothy 2:4 KJV



There is an awareness that armies are made up of soldiers, right?  And that God sent His people to war all the time?  And that there is even a war going on everyday still?  Some of the things put forth here are hard to hear.  

"Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ." 2 Timothy 2:3 KJV

I am just going to stop here but hoping this reply will be seen as helpful in some way 


 

[DeighAnn]

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

Based on how the prophetic puzzle pieces come together, both the angels and God's children will have part in Christ's Second Advent. 

23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.

24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


Isn't it strange how MAN seeks to make a difference between the two, even when we read

the look the same, 
they worship the same
they both have wills of their own 
both servants and messengers of God

and
there are even verses that come right out and say it in a way that it can not be disputed

yet man, well that carnal part of man anyhow, still just can't seem to accept its truth.



9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 19

 
8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. Rev 22


Just throwing this in for consideration 

12And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

13And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

14And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

15And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. Gen 28

 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Now, in all four accounts, where could have Yeeshuwa` been with the thief on the cross that same day? What are the possibilities, based upon these accounts?

John 20
 

16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren,


and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Just because it is not written that MARY saw anyone with him at that time,

doesn't mean WHAT WAS WRITTEN isn't exactly what happened, right?  And you would go with what Jesus said is exactly what took place, right?  Do you think because He did not give any other information that we should just accept it as truth? 

[DeighAnn]

16 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 I do think that you have conflated thoughts/ ideas about the resurrection with the new birth.  This makes it next to impossible to discuss each other's personal view of a particular scripture because they are viewed in a different ideological context.  

I must admit, I believe the 'new birth' has EVERYTHING to do with the resurrection of 'every man in his own order'.  

The new birth is WHAT sets us apart.  

Especially when it comes to DEATH and LIFE. 

I do not find them to be DIFFERENT SUBJECTS, 

but subjects that are dependent one upon the other. 

But then again, I am one of those 'precept on precept...' kind of believer. 

So I don't see them as being 'a different ideological context',

but all woven together.  

Hope this helps with the communication.  

I will try and put more commas in my sentences to see if that helps.  (Used to drive Josheb crazy.  Since he isn't getting on me anymore, I have probably become lax once again.  Thank you for pointing it out.) 





 

[DeighAnn]

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Gen 2:1

6635. tsaba 
Strong's Concordance
tsaba: army, war, warfare
Original Word: צָבָא
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: tsaba
Phonetic Spelling: (tsaw-baw')
Definition: army, war, warfare

appointed time, army, battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon,
Or (feminine) tsbadah {tseb-aw-aw'}; from tsaba'; a mass of persons (or figuratively, things), especially reg. Organized for war (an army); by implication, a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically, hardship, worship) -- appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war(-fare).

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I must apologize.  What you call a pattern, I call precept on precept.  Seems I misunderstood what you meant by pattern is all.  Again, I am sorry for the misunderstanding, and I agree there are 'patterns/precepts on precepts'.  

Thank you, DeighAnn.

You've helped me to understand your point of view better, too. This is a GREAT step forward! Again, thank you for your kindness. I will try to do better to communicate without stepping on your toes!

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Selah7 said:

If you read carefully @Diaste, you will see that 1 Corinthians 15:52 is talking about what happens at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.  And when does this happen? at the last trump which is the 7th trump.  Those changed are those alive then—at the 7th trump.  EVERYONE in that twinkling moment will be changed from flesh body to spiritual body. It’s so simple!

Of course. I'm not opposing or denying any fact about the gathering. I'm trying put all the facts of the gathering together to arrive at a 100% complete conclusion of the truth of it. 

I do like that you understand the 7th trump is the last trump. 

It is simple. And I agree, everyone gathered will be changed just as the scripture says. 

What is not so apparent from 1 Thess 4, 1 Thess 5, 2 Thess 2 and 1 Cor 15 is precisely who the 'everyone' is that is gathered and changed. 

If one, like me, associates the great multitude of Rev 7 with the verses about the gathering from the NT e.g., 1 Thess 4, 1 Thess 5, 2 Thess 2 and 1 Cor 15, then the gathering from 1 Thess 4, 1 Thess 5, 2 Thess 2 and 1 Cor 15, is the great multitude from Rev 7 and is only of those which came out from within GT, as it is written; 

“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb..."

So yes, it's 'everyone'. Everyone that is gathered, not everyone that ever lived and called themselves after His name.

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

But as for the LEADER of the battle, no problem?  Not following that line of thinking.  Must be some demand coming from else where.   Maybe another trip through the old might be in order for some deeper understanding...so the thoughts aren't so carnal...and the spiritual truth might come forth....

 

There is a big difference between the righteous God waging war and His people doing so. 

Romans 12

"Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.”"

Rev 6

" “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”"

Even the innocent killed here do not seek revenge but ask the Lord when He will avenge them.

Assigning vengeance to these martyrs after a resurrection is outside the teaching of Paul and Jesus.

You think Jesus said what He did in Matt 5 to only do a 180° turn and enlist His friends to slaughter millions? 

In word and deed Jesus does not turn.

 

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Remember any of these?  Remember Gods reasons for the instructions He gave?  Remember what happened when they weren't obeyed? 

Just the first things that came to mind as I read the post


4And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.  Ez 9

Those 6 were angels, not men. It was a righteous action and they were slaying Israelites. Don't confuse God's righteous actions with a need for revenge in bloodthirsty vengeance. 

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

God, the same, without any turning.  We 


"And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will." Acts 13:22 KJV


Which MATTERS when building His house, as we read here, but none the less TO MAKE BROAD SWEEPING STATEMENTS that those who are soldiers cant rule and reign because of it is ???

 

I said there is no connection.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  23 hours ago, Diaste said:

You back up to Rev 19:19 in the search for an antecedent but there isn't a connection from 19:19 to 20:4. The warriors in Rev 19:19-21 kill millions or more. I don't see this behavior as tantamount to being seated on thrones and given authority to judge. 

 

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

5And David said, Solomon my son is young and tender, and the house that is to be builded for the LORD must be exceeding magnifical, of fame and of glory throughout all countries: I will therefore now make preparation for it. So David prepared abundantly before his death.

6Then he called for Solomon his son, and charged him to build an house for the LORD God of Israel.

7And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God:

8But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.

frustrating, to say the least.


"No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier." 2 Timothy 2:4 KJV

What are you getting at? Are you saying followers of Jesus fight with swords and shields and metal armor? Hardly.

You do know Jesus came and instructed us on how to follow Him, yes? No where does He tell us to gear up and kill, quite the opposite. If He doesn't turn then why would He make us an army to kill later?

 

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  
"Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ." 2 Timothy 2:3 KJV
 

 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Apparently your battle is with flesh and blood. You seem to be hoping you will be raised to fight and kill even though that is not what we are called to do.

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

There is an awareness that armies are made up of soldiers, right?  And that God sent His people to war all the time?  And that there is even a war going on everyday still?  Some of the things put forth here are hard to hear.

That's because you are supposed to be listening to Jesus, not mankind.

The full armor of God is love and truth. We battle with those weapons, not guns and knives and swords.

13Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with THE BELT OF TRUTH buckled around your waist, with THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS arrayed, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness of THE GOSPEL OF PEACE. 16In addition to all this, take up THE SHIELD OF FAITH, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION and THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT, which is the word of God.

But later the Lord will have us fight a bloody battle and kill millions in the burning lust for vengeance. 

Sure, sure. You go with that.