Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Selah7]

48 minutes ago, Diaste said:

So yes, it's 'everyone'. Everyone that is gathered, not everyone that ever lived and called themselves after His name.

Uh, I don’t believe that.  At the 7th (last) trump, EVERYONE that is alive (in the flesh)—saved and unsaved—ALL—will be changed into spiritual bodies.  This verse has nothing to do with “everyone that ever lived and called themselves after His name.” 

[Selah7]

@Diaste @DeighAnn
The very last thing that happens in this flesh age is the 7th Trump.
When Jesus Christ returns as King of kings and Lord of lords, He eliminates the army at Hamon-gog and the crowd that has assembled at Armageddon (see Ezek. 38–39), and He establishes the millennial kingdom of God on this earth.

Paul explains this in 1 Corinthians 15:50 when he says that flesh and blood cannot enter into that kingdom, which is the millennial rule of Christ. There will be not one person who will stay alive in the flesh. So whether they are among the dead bodies left in the valley of Hamon-gog or the spiritually dead, or God's elect, it doesn’t matter. They are all changed. The flesh age ends when Yeshua returns at that glorious sound of the 7th trump. 

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, @Selah7.

I know my last post was long; so, I'm going to try to cut it down to the basics:

When the Lord told the thief hanging next to Him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise," He was just about to die and be buried in Joseph's tomb until the third day. The thief was about to be killed sooner than he otherwise might have lasted by having his legs broken. So, they would both be dead before sunset (the start of a new day, according to Jewish time-keeping).

In looking at what would follow, Yeeshuwa` ALONE would be raised to new life as a glorified, immortal, and incorruptible body. For the three days prior -

Thursday daytime (in part) = Day 1,
Thursday-Friday nighttime = Night 1,
Friday daytime = Day 2,
Friday-Saturday nighttime = Night 2,
Saturday daytime = Day 3, and
Saturday-Sunday nighttime (in part) = Night 3

- He was dead and buried. 

John mentioned in John 19:41 that Joseph of Arimathaea buried Him in his own tomb recently cut out of the rock in a garden, and we've learned that "paradise" is a "garden of trees!" So, this is the first possibility.

The second possibility is that John said in John 20:17 that Mary Magdalene was told,

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Was He talking about later after the 40 days? or was He talking about a time after He appeared to Mary Magdalene but before He appeared to the other disciples in the Galiyl ("Galilee")?

The third possibility is that Yeeshuwa` was speaking to him as a viewpoint from his perspective: He would go to "sleep" in death, and the next thing he would know would be waking up in the future and being with the Messiah in the park in which he would be buried.

Two things are sure: First, the Messiah did NOT raise anyone else with glorified, immortal, and incorruptible bodies at His death or at His resurrection. People have thought that Yeeshuwa` went to the "good compartment" of Hell or Sheol, called "Abraham's bosom," and "preached to the souls there." They they say that "He led captivity captive" when He arose,  taking half of Hell with Him! However, this is based upon absurd understandings of two obscure passages of Scripture: 1 Peter 3:19 and Ephesians 4:8.

This is wrong on SO many levels! First, a "soul" is NOT a "departed, immaterial part of a human being." A "soul" is an "air-breathing creature!" One cannot be such without the body.

Second, this involves a misunderstanding of Luke 16 in Yeeshuwa`s account of the rich man and Eleazar ("Lazarus"), which many will use to SUPPORT the idea that "souls go to Hell" when they die.

For some odd reason, many are led to believe that this is a scene from Hell or "Hades," a GREEK myth! While growing up under the teaching of an independent Baptist minister, I, too, was frequently told, for instance, that a person was aware in Hell, that he could feel torment and flames, and that he could remember scenes from his former life and that he could talk back and forth with members on the other side of Hell (before the justified ones could be moved to Heaven). And, of course, I was taught that Hell (Hades) was in the center of the earth.

None of this is true. Yeeshuwa` is relating a scene from the RESURRECTION of the unjust. Understanding that a person is not a "soul" without the body by which "to breathe," then this must occur when the rich man is a living "soul" again. And, the other clues in the passage lead to that conclusion:

The rich man can see with eyes, for Yeeshuwa` said, 

Luke 16:23 (KJV)

23 "And in hell (Greek: too hadee = "the unseen") he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

We also learn that he can speak, for we read,

Luke 16:24 (KJV)

24 "And he cried and said,

"'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame!'"

From the same verses, we can see that he has the sense of feeling, because he is "in torments" and is "'tormented in this flame!'"

We see that Eleazar ("Lazarus") has a "finger" that he may "dip the tip of his finger in water," and the rich man has a "tongue" which could be "cooled" by that water! And, apparently, there was "water" available! ("In the center of the earth"?)

In the next verses we read,

Luke 16:25-26 (KJV)

25 But Abraham said,

"'Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.'"

So, we learn that the rich man has ears enough to hear Abraham's response, that they could understand each other at a distance, and that they would be able to pass from one side to the other had it not been for the "great gulf fixed" (Greek: χάσμα μέγα ἐστήρικται "chasma mega esteeriktai" = "a-chasm huge has-been-fixed") between them.

The rest of the verses say,

Luke 16:27-31 (KJV)

27 "Then he said,

"'I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'

29 "Abraham saith unto him,

"'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'

30 "And he said,

"'Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent!'

31 "And he said unto him,

"'If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.'"

There is no proof from this conversation that Eleazar ("Lazarus") COULD have been sent back to warn the rich man's five brothers, who probably had been or would soon be resurrected as he was himself. This means that part of the torment he would suffer was NOT KNOWING what became of them!

However, one thing we do learn from this passage is that a person is UNAWARE of time having passed from the instant he or she has died to the time they are resurrected! Eleazar ("Lazarus") has already been dead, was raised to life, and had his finger back before the rich man saw him in Avraham's "bosom" or "harbor."

So, too, the thief on the cross would be unaware of the passage of time from the moment he suffocated on the cross to the time he would be resurrected at the Lord's Return and his personal resurrection!

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

Continuing from my previous post, the following is a copy & paste of part of my statement of faith from My Testimony and More (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252050-my-testimony-and-more/).  As you will see Diaste, it relates to questions and comments you have expressed in the course of your thread and hopefully it will make for a good lead in to some other things I would like to point out...

I much prefer direct rebuttals over redirects to off topic matters. 

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

====================

"I BELIEVE that when Christ comes again, He will rule and reign upon this earth as the King of kings and Lord of lords---for a literal thousand years (Rev. 20:1-6).  During this time, God will fulfill His covenant promises to the Israelite nation, and Christians will experience the rewards of their faithfulness to Christ.  Realize, the estate of God's children in Heaven is a gift of God, and will be equal for all, for all of eternity, as reflected in Revelation chapters 21-22.  But, the estate of God's children during Christ's Millennial Reign will vary greatly, for it is a reward, based upon what we have done for God's Kingdom purposes in this life, as reflected in Jesus' parables of the talents (Matt. 25:14-23ff), and the pounds (Lk. 19:11-19ff), and Paul's words concerning rewards (I Cor. 3:12-15).  In my concept of what Scripture teaches, all of God's children during Christ's Reign will have it far better than anyone in this present experience of life---but there is a concern.  Consider:  We who have been born-again have been made "new creatures" inwardly, in our souls.  And, during Christ's Reign, we will be in our new, glorified bodies.  This means that during Christ's Reign, we will be in a glorified state, both inwardly and outwardly.  But, we will still have our memories.  We will have our memories until that time that God "wipes away" all tears from our eyes and anything in our minds that would cause us sorrow in our eternity (Rev. 21:4-5).  This, however, will not happen until after Christ's Reign and the judgment of the unsaved at the Last Judgment (Rev. 20).  So, while our estate during Christ's Reign will be as royalty (Rev. 20:6), a thousand years is a long time for one to wish he or she had been more faithful or obedient.  This is something to seriously think about that most of God's children have thought nothing about."

Comforting and pastoral. Still does not address "Who?"

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

====================

In light of what I shared in my previous post and things related to the above, I cannot see support that only those who are saved as a result of rejecting the beast's rule will join Christ in His Millennial Reign.

No?

" And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Just who is this? Who is 'they' in this statement? Scripture tells us.

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. "

I would say that anyone who had been " beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God..." would be included in this, from all time. However, the next statement is about a specific time and a specific set of behaviors;

" and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. "

The only way for these to not worship the beast or its image or, to not take the mark, is if the beast, the image and the mark exist. 

It's these that "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Even if one could liken "Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge" to a group that came before from the army, as you point out, the group you liken those seated on thrones to, are not part of those who came to life and reigned with Christ, per Rev 20:4.

"And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." is only for the beheaded and overcomers. The group rationalized to be an army in "Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge." did not come to life as they were already alive, and they are not described as beheaded, refusing the mark or denying the worship of the beast and the image.

The struggle to place a vast pretrib group in this group that rules and reign with Christ doesn't wash as they don't have the attributes so described in Rev 20:4.

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

  The tenor of Jesus' parables of the talents and the pounds mentioned above bespeaks that His words held as much meaning for His listeners then as for us now.  Not mentioned above, but just as pertinent is what Jesus told His disciples in response to a question asked of Him by Peter.  Consider from Matthew 19...

27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Ah. This has been tried before. It's akin to, "If I can prove a thing wrong then necessarily this other thing is right." That's false. There still needs to be evidence.

That being said, the idea of the 1st resurrection and who participates does not preclude or cancel any other promise or prophecy. Do you really think a promise made to the 12 won't be fulfilled or is somehow predicated on the nature and behavior and needs of the 1st resurrection?

I mean, seriously....

 

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. (like the icing on the cake! )

30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

There is no promise here to rule and reign with Jesus for 1000 years in the millennial kingdom. This is a reference to the deeds based judgment of Matt 24 and Rev 20. Please notice how Jesus relates action and behavior to inheriting eternal life.

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

Remaining mindful of what I pointed out in my preceding post (page 122, post 9), consider afresh John's words to those that were a part of the seven churches in Asia.  From Revelation 1...

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from Him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the Prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

6 And hath made US kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Sure, those who are included. It's quite a gap fill to assume it's everyone. Reading through the letters to the churches shows not everyone is included. 

You are defining 'us' as every believer who ever lived and died from Adam to the present and future. Maybe that's the case. That doesn't prove who is resurrected and when. Some will be in the 1st resurrection, some will be at the 2nd resurrection.

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

Continuing, in Revelation 4-5 John tells of the invite he received to the place of God's throne in Heaven where he took part in the ceremony that was for the purpose of conferring to the Lamb the charge of the Seven Sealed Book.  At the climax of the ceremony, all the saved that were in Heaven at that time---which would have included all from Adam until the time of John's invite---praised the Lamb thus, as recorded in chapter five...

Absolutely not. My word, that's an bold assumption. Where does scripture show such a group in heaven as you say? It's not in Rev 4 or 5.

We do see this:

"Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands."

There are no believers here from Adam to John's time. Where do you get this?

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Sure. Those included. This is just the fact of it, not the identity of those people. It's just those destined to be such. In no way does this tell us it's every person who ever believed from all time. In fact, the ones who live and reign with Christ are described in Rev 20:4.

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This is still an assumption that it's every believer from all time ignoring Rev 20:4. I don't see anyone address directly: 

"I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

This fact has to be included in the analysis of Who? and When? Rev 20:4 must be factored into 1 Thess 4, 1 Thess 5, 1 Cor 14, Matt 24, Matt 25, Rev 11 and Rev 7. 

"And they came to life and reigned with Christ..." Who is 'they'? The antecedent in the previous sentence: the beheaded and the overcomers of the beast, the mark, and the image. 

This should not be ignored. Yet it is. Why?

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

Making the tie in with what I have already shown, it is during the 7th Trumpet period that the event of Christ's Second Advent will take place, of which John wrote these words from chapter 17 (which I previously pointed out)...

14 These (speaking of the beast and those in league with him) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are WITH HIM are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Yes. But just who is that? It's not defined. You assume and gap fill. Where does this say it's 'all believers from all time'? In fact the idea it's all believers from all time is an assumption based on the fallacy of gap filling.

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

All of this interlocks with and enhances the prophetic picture of which John writes in Revelation 20:4-6.  I don't find anything revealed in Scripture that suggests otherwise.  As you assemble the prophetic puzzle pieces, the portion of the picture that we are looking at becomes clearer and clearer.  Unless, of course, you have the grouping before you upside down or side ways.  I've seen this happen many times when working on common puzzles.  Sometimes the addition of just one or two more pieces helps us to see that we have been looking at a portion that we need to turn right side up.  Then, a lot of things start coming together much better.

 

Except "I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." is always ignored. It's a linchpin. The very axis of the resurrection. A most important piece of the puzzle. The fundamental truth of who lives and reigns with Christ for 1000 years. 

 

[Diaste]

26 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

@Diaste @DeighAnn
The very last thing that happens in this flesh age is the 7th Trump.
When Jesus Christ returns as King of kings and Lord of lords, He eliminates the army at Hamon-gog and the crowd that has assembled at Armageddon (see Ezek. 38–39), and He establishes the millennial kingdom of God on this earth.

Paul explains this in 1 Corinthians 15:50 when he says that flesh and blood cannot enter into that kingdom, which is the millennial rule of Christ. There will be not one person who will stay alive in the flesh. So whether they are among the dead bodies left in the valley of Hamon-gog or the spiritually dead, or God's elect, it doesn’t matter. They are all changed. The flesh age ends when Yeshua returns at that glorious sound of the 7th trump. 

Then what of this?

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.d 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them. 18And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles."

There are lots of living people of flesh in the millennial kingdom.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Selah7 said:

Uh, I don’t believe that.  At the 7th (last) trump, EVERYONE that is alive (in the flesh)—saved and unsaved—ALL—will be changed into spiritual bodies.  This verse has nothing to do with “everyone that ever lived and called themselves after His name.” 

[Selah7]

10 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Then what of this?

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.d 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them. 18And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles."

There are lots of living people of flesh in the millennial kingdom.

First off, the book of Zechariah IS the Lord’s Day.  Some have received immortality and others are merely in incorruptible bodies, meaning still subject to the second death …

By the way, just because we will be in spiritual bodies in the Millennium and throughout eternity does not mean we won’t have bodies—head, hands and feet, etc.

 

[Selah7]

Continued…

See?

Zech. 14:1 
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

 

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, Uriah said:

And as you said, they are tied to other events in this case. 

Mat 13:47- Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Mat 13:48- Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

Mat 13:49- So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Mat 13:50- And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:57- Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

Which sounds a lot like Matt 25:31-46 and Rev 20:11-15. For me I cannot fail to liken all three passages, and a few more, with the same event. Maybe you do as well. That means all that is left is to place it all correctly on the timeline. If Matt 13 and 25 and Rev 20 are all the same, and Rev 20 places the GWTJ after the 1000 years when the 'rest of the dead lived not again till the 1000 years were complete', then the resurrection and judgment in question are after the 1000 years, not before.

22 hours ago, Uriah said:

This comes right after the wheat and tares parable where Jesus says;

v. 38- The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom

That' us! It cannot be only part of the field being reaped.

v. 40- As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 

As far as I can tell, people aren't thrown into the fire only after having a "hearing"- JUDGMENT.  

Sure. The books are opened and the dead are judged by what's in the books. The GWTJ is not only to death but only IF a name is NOT found, only THEN are they cast into the lake of fire. 

22 hours ago, Uriah said:

v. 43- Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

It is at the, "END of THIS WORLD". (v. 40) There is, "the world that then was" (2 Peter 3:6) that ended with the flood. There is, "this world" as Jesus said above. And there is, "the world to come" also referred to by Jesus. 

Yes. It's would have to be the 'world to come' that is the subject of 'the end of the world'. 

22 hours ago, Uriah said:

Where in the worlds do you think this event fits?  Apparently, the disciples had no problem understanding these things. And I don't think Jesus changed it up in Rev. 20.

From what I see the end of the world is at the end. The coming of Christ is not the end of the world since the millennial kingdom is 1000 years long and Jesus reigns on the earth for that time. Then it's the end of the world.

22 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev 11:15- And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven,  saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

That seems to be quite a big deal. And sure enough, those people in Rev 20 are raised at that time as well because it is, "the time of the dead."

They are raised. Who? is the question.

[Diaste]

24 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

First off, the book of Zechariah IS the Lord’s Day.

I know that. Wasn't the point.

24 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

 

 Some have received immortality and others are merely in incorruptible bodies, meaning still subject to the second death …

Huh?

24 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

By the way, just because we will be in spiritual bodies in the Millennium and throughout eternity does not mean we won’t have bodies—head, hands and feet, etc.

Okay.