Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

@Diaste

John 5:25 K J V

(Jesus said it and we have to figure it out.)

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. And then what? 

What is the context of this verse...has that taken place? 

What does it mean:

"and they that hear shall live". Who are the they...are they alive or dead...

I suppose there are a couple ways to hear this. I don't know exactly what it means as I have not studied it out in any detail. 

I will say on the face of it, it appears to the be spiritually dead. 

In the sense of the spiritually dead, they hear the voice of the Son of God in the form of the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, They hear the voice of Jesus speaking salvation and eternal life, and they shall live whereas they were previously spiritually dead. 

A couple verses later the distinction is made by Jesus when saying nearly the same thing, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice"

Here Jesus does not say, '...and now is...'

So I see the difference as being one of salvation for the spiritually dead through the Gospel voice of the Son of God, and the other as the voice all the dead will hear at the resurrection of the dead, at the last day[after the 1000 year reign].

Again, I have not studied it in detail but it seems simple, easy to understand and reasonable.

[Montana Marv]

9 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

"Sea" in the Revelation represents multitudes of people

Does the Beast below rise out of the ocean, like the creature from the black lagoon "NO" he rises out of multitudes of people

No more "Sea" in Revelation 21:1 teaches the multitudes of people are gone, "Narrow" is the way and "Few" will find it

So there are no inhabitants in the New Jerusalem.  This is according to what you just posted.  No more "Sea", is equivalent to No more "People".

Yet, you have said that Zech 14:8 is in eternity,  Multitudes of people (living water flowing to the eastern and western seas).  And then go on to say that Rev 21:1 is also in Eternity and that there are just a few people.  Which on is true??

You claim Zech says multitudes of peoples are in Eternity, Then you say John has said only a few people are in Eternity.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

You may continue.  But we will not agree on the residency of God in a place called heaven because of our differing views on the omnipresence of God.   I will not debate you on the topic,  but feel free to give your basis,  and start a new topic on such. 

Shalom, Da Puppers.

That's too bad. So, you're copping the old "I've already made up my mind; don't confuse me with the facts" routine, eh? It didn't work out too well for the colleagues of Richard Nixon, y'know.

The omnipresence of God is something NECESSARY if God did indeed create the ENTIRE UNIVERSE! God is the SUSTAINER of the workings of the Universe!

David, the Anointed of the LORD, said under inspiration, wrote:

Psalm 139:1-24 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.}

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. 
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me"; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

God said in Isaiah 46,

Isaiah 46:1-13 (KJV)

1 "Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast.
2 They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.

3 "Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.

5 "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
6 They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.
7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.

8 "Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand,' and 'I will do all my pleasure':
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory."

Recall Shlomoh's ("Solomon's") words at the dedication of the Temple:

1 Kings 8:22-53 (KJV)

22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven: 23 And he said,

"LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart: 24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day. 25 Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me. 26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.

27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, THE HEAVEN AND HEAVEN OF HEAVENS CANNOT CONTAIN THEE; how much less this house that I have builded? 28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day: 29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place. 30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

31 "If any man trespass against his neighbour, and an oath be laid upon him to cause him to swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this house: 32 Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.

33 "When thy people Israel be smitten down before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee, and shall turn again to thee, and confess thy name, and pray, and make supplication unto thee in this house: 34 Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest unto their fathers.

35 "When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them: 36 Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy servants, and of thy people Israel, that thou teach them the good way wherein they should walk, and give rain upon thy land, which thou hast given to thy people for an inheritance.

37 "If there be in the land famine, if there be pestilence, blasting, mildew, locust, or if there be caterpiller; if their enemy besiege them in the land of their cities; whatsoever plague, whatsoever sickness there be; 38 What prayer and supplication soever be made by any man, or by all thy people Israel, which shall know every man the plague of his own heart, and spread forth his hands toward this house: 39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;) 40 That they may fear thee all the days that they live in the land which thou gavest unto our fathers.

41 "Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake; 42 (For they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out arm;) when he shall come and pray toward this house; 43 Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.

44 "If thy people go out to battle against their enemy, whithersoever thou shalt send them, and shall pray unto the LORD toward the city which thou hast chosen, and toward the house that I have built for thy name: 45 Then hear thou in heaven their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause.

46 "If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near; 47 Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent, and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, 'We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness'; 48 And so return unto thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, which led them away captive, and pray unto thee toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name: 49 Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, and maintain their cause, 50 And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them: 51 For they be thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron: 52 That thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of thy servant, and unto the supplication of thy people Israel, to hearken unto them in all that they call for unto thee. 53 For thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord GOD."

YHWH God the FATHER is not localized ANYWHERE within His Creation! If He's not God the Creator OF ALL, He's not God the Creator AT ALL!

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

And let me add a bit of clarity to my view of the soul of man.   My argument was a little but lacking on the third option that man was neither living nor a soul prior to the breath of God.   The concept of death and dying to the "living" was not incorporated into the word "living" until Adam named his wife Eve, the mother of all living.   When the scriptures say that man "became a living soul", the word "living" there conveys the same idea as when we refer to God as "the living God".  There is no death with the essence of God... being everlasting and never ending.   This is what is conveyed with saying that man is a "living soul", a state of everlasting existence.   For God said unto Adam,  "... in the day that you shall eat,  you shall surely die. "  There was no death in them prior to their sin and transgression.   So,  "'living soul" refers to the everlasting essence of God living in them, and not because they were air breathing creatures.   All of the other creatures of the creation were called living from their origins.   Nothing should be expected less of the creation of man.   He was a breathing creator from the onset... meaning that "living soul" can only refer to the infusion of the essence of God eternal nature into them,  and not the inhalation of air. 

That may SOUND good to one's ears, but it is NOT TRUE! Look at the Hebrew of Genesis 2:7:

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית B'reeshiyt 2:7 (Westminster Leningrad Codex)

וַיִּיצֶר֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַֽיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה׃

Transliterated, this becomes ...

7 Vayyiytser YHWH Elohiym 'et-haa'aadaam `aafaar min-haa'adaamaah vayyipaayow nishmat chayyiym vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayyaah:

Translated word-for-word, we get ...

7 And-formed YHWH God (d.o.->)-the-red-[man] of-dust from-the-red-[ground] and-puffed-into-his-nostrils a-puff of-living-things and-became the-red-[man] into-an-air-breathing-creature living:

Using these words and rearranging them for English word order, we get ...

7 And YHWH God formed the red (man) of dust from the red (ground) and puffed into his nostrils a puff of living things and the red man became into a living, air-breathing creature:

(We don't usually say, "became into" but that's the way it is.)

Notice the highlighted portions above. There are TWO words that were translated as "living" in this verse, חַיִּ֑ים ("chayyiym") and חַיָּֽה ("chayyaah"). The first is an adjective with a masculine, plural ending, revealing that it would modify to a masculine, plural noun, if it was present, for adjectives and the nouns they modify would have to agree in gender and number. The second is an adjective with a feminine, singular ending, since נֶ֥פֶשׁ "nefesh" is a feminine word meant to describe the singular man.

So, the first word translated as "living" here would refer back to the ANIMALS that God created BEFORE He created man!

I agree with you that Adam was neither living nor a soul before God "puffed the puff of living things" into him, but his life was no more immortal than that of the animals who were created before him. On the other hand, they all COULD have been immortal had Adam and Chavah never sinned.

Note, too, that Adam was called "haa'aadaam" ("the-red-[man]") BEFORE God "puffed the puff of living things" into him! Thus, from the modern perspective, it was the non-living but fully functional BODY that was named "the red man!" He was MADE "haa'aadaam! " It wasn't until he could breathe on his own that he was called a "nefesh," an "air-breathing creature," which was translated as "soul!" Thus, the word "living" meant that he could live independently, fully functioning on his own! God didn't have to keep puffing to keep the man alive!

You do know that this verse was the SOURCE for "rescue breathing" in CPR, right?

According to the History of Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation,

"The oldest references to artificial respiration are in Egyptian mythology where by one account Isis resurrected Osiris with the breath of life.

Other early references occur in the Bible in Genesis, 2, 7 and Kings I , 17, 21, both of doubtful physiological significance. However another Biblical reference is strongly quoted as evidence of artificial respiration.

And he went up and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm. Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes. Kings I, 4, 34-35

This reference is the best of the three but again the exact meaning is doubtful. It does appear that this could be a description of mouth to mouth respiration, even though the reason for recovery may well have been rewarming of the patient."

So, in Genesis 2:7, it was a PUFF OF AIR - a נִשְׁמַ֣ת "nishmat " - that brought the man - the body - to life as a breathing creature!

Remember these definitions from the Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

5315 nefesh (nephesh) נֶפֶשׁ (neh'-fesh). From naafash (naphash); properly, A BREATHING CREATURE, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naafash (naphash) נָפַשׁ (naw-fash'). A primitive root; TO BREATHE; passively, TO BE BREATHED UPON, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by A CURRENT OF AIR): 
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Thirdly,  no dictionary will disagree with me that there are multiple definitions/uses of the word heaven,  ouranos.  As far as I know,  all languages are filled with words having multiple definitions and uses.   Ouranos, is no different.   It's definition comes from the idea of looking up.  IMO, you are firm in your belief about the use of the word heaven BECAUSE you believe that God is omnipresent.  That's okay.   I understand.   

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Perhaps, but every dictionary of any merit will have an etymology section, showing the ORIGIN of the word. I don't look at the UNION of the definitions; I look for the INTERSECTION of the definitions! What do all the definitions HAVE IN COMMON! THAT is the MAIN, ORIGINAL meaning of the word.

Remember, I'm primarily a mathematician who is interested in the Bible, in the Sciences, and in languages. So, I SEE things in my mind like this:

All of F and Q together, which includes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 11, is the UNION of the two sets, F and Q. Only what they share, namely 2, 3, 5, and 7, are in the INTERSECTION of these two sets.

When looking at the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon for "nefesh," one gets a HOST of definitions, based on all the different ways this word was translated in English versions of the Bible.

To me, I must compare them all to see what they all have IN COMMON! And, what they ALL have in common is their etymology, the fact that it originally meant...
an "(air)-breathing creature," a noun based upon the verb that means ...
"to breathe (air)!" (See BibleHub.com on "5315. Nephesh").

Now, "ouranos" is the Greek word found in the Greek Dictionary of the New Testament in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance as ...

3772 ouranos οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); THE SKY; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):
-- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

Again, the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon has a plethora of definitions for the word, but ultimately, I'm going to use it as Yeeshuwa` the Messiah used his word that was translated as "ouranos" in Matthew 16:1-4. It is the HEART (the INTERSECTION; the ETYMOLOGY) of what the word "ouranos" means:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign FROM HEAVEN (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 

Pause for a moment: What do you think the Pharisees and Sadducees meant when they asked Him for a "sign from heaven?" Do you think they meant a "sign from God?" Probably. How did Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") answer them?

2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for THE SKY (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for THE SKY (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face OF THE SKY (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas!"

And he left them, and departed.

He gave them WEATHER WISDOM for an answer! "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!" He gave them what they asked for without giving them what they wanted!

Think a little longer on this. I've only "sown the seed"; God must give the increase.

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

I think it hard to dispute there is a literal 1000 year reign on earth. Yet, some do.

That Zech 14 passage, all of Zech 14, is quite informative.

Zechariah 14 is the eternal kingdom in the New Heaven and earth

Zechariah 14:8 the river of life is flowing

[Retrobyter]

24 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Zechariah 14 is the eternal kingdom in the New Heaven and earth

Zechariah 14:8 the river of life is flowing

Shalom, truth7t7.

No, sir. That's not true.

There are TWO rivers in the scenario found in Zechariah 14 and one of the two talked about in Ezekiel. They come out of Jerusalem and flow east to the Dead Sea ("the former sea") and west to the Mediterranean Sea ("the hinder sea"). They shall be fresh water rivers and they will heal the land and the waters which were originally poisoned by too much salt. Ezekiel is focused on the one river running east:

Ezekiel 47:1-12 (KJV)

1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar. 2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles (ankles). 4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins (hips). 5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over. 6 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, hast thou seen this?"

Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river. 7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other. 8 Then said he unto me,

"These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. 9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. 10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. 11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. 12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine."

Note, however, that all of this occurs between Jerusalem and the Dead Sea! The New Jerusalem of the New Earth will be FAR LARGER than this old Jerusalem! And, assuming that the rivers flow with the street to all twelve gates, its river will become TWELVE rivers, each flowing in a different compass direction! Three flowing generally to the north, three to the east, three to the south, and three to the west!

That makes THIS river DIFFERENT THAN the river found in Revelation 22!

Edited February 26, 2023 by Retrobyter
to fix the coloring of the text

[truth7t7]

On 2/26/2023 at 9:12 AM, Montana Marv said:

No more "Sea", is equivalent to No more "People".

I explained how "Sea" represents multitudes of people, then you move to the false claim above in your response, "Really"

It appears you don't want to deal with the truth when presented Marv "Why"?

You still haven't answered Zechariah 14:12 and 2 Peter 3:10 being the Lord's day in fire and final judgement, as men are "consumed" by the Lord's fire while standing on their feet, you run from response "Why"?

Jesus Is The Lord

(The Day Of The Lord)

Zechariah 14:1 & 12KJV

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

2 Peter 3:10KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Edited February 27, 2023 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

46 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, truth7t7.

No, sir. That's not true.

There are TWO rivers in the scenario found in Zechariah 14 and one of the two talked about in Ezekiel. They come out of Jerusalem and flow east to the Dead Sea ("the former sea") and west to the Mediterranean Sea ("the hinder sea"). They shall be fresh water rivers and they will heal the land and the waters which were originally poisoned by too much salt. Ezekiel is focused on the one river running east:

Ezekiel 47:1-12 (KJV)

1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar. 2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles (ankles). 4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins (hips). 5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over. 6 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, hast thou seen this?"

Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river. 7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other. 8 Then said he unto me,

"These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. 9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. 10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. 11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. 12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine."

Note, however, that all of this occurs between Jerusalem and the Dead Sea! The New Jerusalem of the New Earth will be FAR LARGER than this old Jerusalem! And, assuming that the rivers flow with the street to all twelve gates, its river will become TWELVE rivers, each flowing in a different compass direction! Three flowing generally to the north, three to the east, three to the south, and three to the west!

That makes THIS river DIFFERENT THAN the river found in Revelation 22!

Ezekiel Chapters 47-48 Is The Eternal Kingdom, Dont Be Deceived

Ezekiel Below Is (The Eternal Kingdom) Same River And Tree Of life, Same Fruit On The Tree, Same Leaves Of The Tree For Healing/Medicine

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Ezekiel 47:12KJV

12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Revelation 22:1-2KJV

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

"The Eternal New Jerusalem"

Ezekiel 48:29-35KJV

 29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord God.

30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures.

31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

"The Eternal New Jerusalem"

Revelation 21:10-12KJV

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

[Montana Marv]

18 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

You still haven't answered Zechariah 14:12 and 2 Peter 3:10 being the Lord's day in fire and final judgement, as men are "consumed" by the Lord's fire while standing on their feet, you run from response "Why"?

Zech 14:12 is a description of Armageddon, or it could be after the 1000 years when Satan attacks the camp of God..  1000 years later is 2 Peter 3:10 which is describing the change from the old earth and heaven to the New earth and heaven,

Easy as pie.

22 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

I explained how "Sea" represents multitudes of people, then you move to the false claim above in your response, "Really"

I know how you explained it.  Both are in eternity, yet both are totally different.   The Many people of Zech 14:8 becomes just a few or none at all of Rev 21:1.  Doesn't compute.

28 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

It appears you don't want to deal with the truth when presented Marv "Why"?

Because what you view as "truth" is just a big Lie.  What you peddle is not truth at all.

And  Satan was bound for 1000 years and then after the 1000 years was over Satan was released for a short time.  Chew on it.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[FreeGrace]

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  truth7t7 said: 

The Day Of The Lord isn't 1,000 years long as you suggest, making way for your man made Millennial Kingdom on this Earth, that will never take place
You have to SHOW how it works in your belief system.  You can't just say it isn't or it doesn't YOU HAVE TO SHOW HOW IT DOES WORK.  

And there's the rub.  He CAN'T show from Scripture anything he claims.  Because Scripture doesn't say what he claims.

[Retrobyter]

40 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Ezekiel Chapters 47-48 Is The Eternal Kingdom, Dont Be Deceived

Ezekiel Below Is (The Eternal Kingdom) Same River And Tree Of life, Same Fruit On The Tree, Same Leaves Of The Tree For Healing/Medicine

Shalom, truth7t7.

No, sir. Again, "sameness" doesn't mean "they are the same!" In geometry, for instance, we can say that two triangles can be SIMILAR without being the SAME triangle! They just have the same lengths of sides and the same angles, but they are simply not the same triangle.

There ARE similarities between the two (or three) scenarios; however, they cannot be exactly the same! The New Jerusalem has a side length of 1,379.868686... miles long! Ezekiel's Jerusalem measures 4,500 x 4,500 measures of 6 long cubits each, the long cubit being a regular cubit + a hand span, approximately 21 to 22 inches per cubit. When one calculates that out, one gets,

4,500 measures x 6 long cubits / measure x 21 inches / long cubit x 1 foot / 12 inches x 1 miles / 5,280 feet = 4,500 x 6 x 21 / 12 / 5,280 miles = 8.95 miles! And, the distance from the current Jerusalem to the Dead Sea is only 116 km or 72 miles.

40 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

 

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Ezekiel 47:12KJV

12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Revelation 22:1-2KJV

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

"The Eternal New Jerusalem"

Ezekiel 48:29-35KJV

 29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord God.

30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures.

31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

"The Eternal New Jerusalem"

Revelation 21:10-12KJV

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Again, similarity doesn't mean they are the same! Still MUCH different measurements!