The Rapture under attack

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

 

I decided to look into this a bit. I don't normally as I think it's a treacherous swamp leading to alternate views that are unsupported. But in this case there is an interesting bit I found.

John records the elder saying:

"“These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”"

Here it's a past tense verb. It's not "where are they coming from", it's "have come from" They aren't continuing to arrive, they have arrived from some other place and the arrival is complete and over with.

Throughout scripture "ēlthon" is used as past tense verb. 

Then the elder says:

"“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; "

I am going to assume the elder didn't disagree with himself. 

So then no, they are not continuing to 'come'. They all already have arrived in a past action. 

 

Sorry, friend, but I think you missed it. Both verses have "came" which comes from the Greek "erchomai." Here is from Strong's:

erchomai

Inflected:    ἐρχόμενοι
Root:    ἔρχομαιSpeaker Icon
Strong's:    G2064
English:    came
Code:    V-PNP-NPM
Long:    Verb - Present Middle or Passive Deponent Participle -

Definition of "Present"
Represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present.

Definition of "Participle"
Corresponds for the most part to the English participle, reflecting "-ing" or "-ed" being suffixed to the basic verb form. The participle can be used either like a verb or a noun, as in English, and thus is often termed a "verbal noun."

All the major Greek Texts agree on this word.

From an interlinear:

ercomenoi
erchomenoi
G2064
vp Pres midD/pasD Nom Pl m
ones-COMING
ones-coming

American STandard:  These are they that come...
Darby: These are they who come...
YOung's literal  'These are those who are coming...

I counted 14 English translations that have the present participle "ing" ending as in "are coming."

When I consider the rest of the verse, that they washed their robes in the blood, I must disagree with you.

Some time in the past, on some forum, someone that knew Greek well wrote that these could not be the raptured church, because of this present tense verb. He thought they must be coming one by one as each one was martyred by the Beast. 

I did a lot of meditating on this verse and bugging God about it. Most people expect this elder  was telling John how this large crowd suddenly got from earth to heaven. Now I don't think that is what he said. I rather think he told John how each one left their life as a sinner and joined this large group by becoming born again.

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

I decided to look into this a bit. I don't normally as I think it's a treacherous swamp leading to alternate views that are unsupported. But in this case there is an interesting bit I found.

John records the elder saying:

"“These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”"

Here it's a past tense verb. It's not "where are they coming from", it's "have come from" They aren't continuing to arrive, they have arrived from some other place and the arrival is complete and over with.

Throughout scripture "ēlthon" is used as past tense verb. 

Then the elder says:

"“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; "

I am going to assume the elder didn't disagree with himself. 

So then no, they are not continuing to 'come'. They all already have arrived in a past action. 

 

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

It doesn't seem like they are expecting people to keep streaming in? Why not?  If their fellowservants  aren't coming to join them,  then where are their fellowservants who are killed but never die, going to go?  Not sure why them being killed as they were would have them going to another place.  Does that make sense?  

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

It doesn't seem like they are expecting people to keep streaming in? Why not?  If their fellowservants  aren't coming to join them,  then where are their fellowservants who are killed but never die, going to go?  Not sure why them being killed as they were would have them going to another place.  Does that make sense?  

Sure. 

This is one of the places where Revelation holds to a strict chronology. 

You are referencing the 5th seal here. Then the sixth seal is opened. That's the sign of the arrival of Jesus and the time of beginning of wrath.

If wrath begins here [not right then but shortly] then all in Christ both living and dead are taken up in the harpazo, or rapture. So the time where the fellow servants are 'killed as they were' is over, that number reached, all believers taken up to safety to be with the Lord. 

As we are not appointed to wrath we must be taken up before wrath begins, and at the 6th seal it's about to. 

Rev 7 is the time between the 6th seal and when wrath ensues, right after the harpazo/rapture where the servants are sealed and the praise of the multitude, and the revealing of the identity of the multitude.

Which multitude in white robes, we learn, came out of the great tribulation. 

So during the 5th seal of course souls are being added to that number, as it is written, that's the very reason why they are told to wait. 

But that vengeance they are asking for comes following 6th seal. After the harpazo, and there are no fellow servants to be 'killed as they were' since all have been taken up to meet the Lord in the harpazo/rapture.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, friend, but I think you missed it. Both verses have "came" which comes from the Greek "erchomai."

Check the lexicon. Below is verse 13. The verb form below is what appears in the text.

"“These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come[ēlthon] from?”"

To the original argument, John is being asked about the origins of the group. From where does the group originate? He doesn't know. It's known the group is described as being where they are but the origin is unknown. That's the point of the question; the origin, not if they are still coming or not. 

So the verb I claimed was a past tense verb turns out to be inaccurate. A little more looking shows the verb "ēlthon" to be aorist. There is no time stamp with an aorist tense. The aorist doesn't show continuing or ongoing but refers to the fact of the action. It's not past present or future, just that the event happened. So then it's not ongoing and in fact is the perfect verb tense to refer to a one time action that already occurred, the harpazo/rapture.

 

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I counted 14 English translations that have the present participle "ing" ending as in "are coming."

That doesn't change what appears in the Greek. 

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

When I consider the rest of the verse, that they washed their robes in the blood, I must disagree with you.

Okay.

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Some time in the past, on some forum, someone that knew Greek well wrote that these could not be the raptured church, because of this present tense verb. He thought they must be coming one by one as each one was martyred by the Beast. 

So? An expert isn't correct because they are an expert, they are correct because they got the facts right and a true factual conclusion flows from the facts. 

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I did a lot of meditating on this verse and bugging God about it. Most people expect this elder  was telling John how this large crowd suddenly got from earth to heaven. Now I don't think that is what he said. I rather think he told John how each one left their life as a sinner and joined this large group by becoming born again.

As before the point of the question isn't about the mechanism, it's about origins. The group originates from the GT. 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

You are referencing the 5th seal here. Then the sixth seal is opened. That's the sign of the arrival of Jesus and the time of beginning of wrath.

Do you believe GODs Wrath falls BEFORE or after Satan is bound?

Because they are saying  PEACE and SAFETY and THEN SUDDEN destruction comes upon them.  They are dancing and sending each other gifts when the two witnesses lie  dead in the streets, it is not until they SEE HEAVEN OPEN and the two witnesses rise up from the dead (ARE THEY THE 'DEAD IN CHRIST' THAT RISE FIRST? Are they the 'dead in Christ' that rise first?  That's new, would that totally work? maybe) that they realize they have been deceived, taken the mark, been unfaithful, going to hell)  and run for the hills to hide their shame from the face of God.  


If Gods wrath is falling then they certainly aren't saying peace and safety at that time, are they?

[Diaste]

56 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you believe GODs Wrath falls BEFORE or after Satan is bound?

I don't know exactly. Before the millennium for sure. I would tend toward after wrath is over and before the millennium.

56 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Because they are saying  PEACE and SAFETY and THEN SUDDEN destruction comes upon them.  They are dancing and sending each other gifts when the two witnesses lie  dead in the streets, it is not until they SEE HEAVEN OPEN and the two witnesses rise up from the dead (ARE THEY THE 'DEAD IN CHRIST' THAT RISE FIRST? Are they the 'dead in Christ' that rise first?  That's new, would that totally work? maybe) that they realize they have been deceived, taken the mark, been unfaithful, going to hell)  and run for the hills to hide their shame from the face of God.  


If Gods wrath is falling then they certainly aren't saying peace and safety at that time, are they?

I only see the bowls as God's wrath. I only see wrath beginning late in the week and it probably has a relatively short duration. 

Around the time the two witnesses are raised would be the midpoint from what I read. But I don't know when this happens:

"3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

It's probably a general condition, not an event. We are hearing it today all across the world. And it's not cause and effect. The sudden destruction is unexpected, happens when they are unaware, not an immediate consequence of saying, "We need peace and security!"

It's part of the delusion that peace and security comes from some earthly power, and it's to that the people look. I think the mask and vaccine mandates showed just where people look for safety and security and peace, not realizing no world leader can save them. 

 

 

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you believe GODs Wrath falls BEFORE or after Satan is bound?

I think this is misunderstood. Satan is bound now from gathering the nations. It is a GOD THING...
When loosed he will deceive tha nations and gather them together for the final battle at Mt. Zion. (ha-m'oe'd) that mount of the Lord and NOT in the plain of Megiddo where there is no mountain.

When they all surround the Holy City, then LOOKOUT for the showdown as God brings fire from Heaven on them all.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Check the lexicon. Below is verse 13. The verb form below is what appears in the text.

"“These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come[ēlthon] from?”"

To the original argument, John is being asked about the origins of the group. From where does the group originate? He doesn't know. It's known the group is described as being where they are but the origin is unknown. That's the point of the question; the origin, not if they are still coming or not. 

So the verb I claimed was a past tense verb turns out to be inaccurate. A little more looking shows the verb "ēlthon" to be aorist. There is no time stamp with an aorist tense. The aorist doesn't show continuing or ongoing but refers to the fact of the action. It's not past present or future, just that the event happened. So then it's not ongoing and in fact is the perfect verb tense to refer to a one time action that already occurred, the harpazo/rapture.

 

That doesn't change what appears in the Greek. 

Okay.

So? An expert isn't correct because they are an expert, they are correct because they got the facts right and a true factual conclusion flows from the facts. 

As before the point of the question isn't about the mechanism, it's about origins. The group originates from the GT. 

I was wrong. I guess both use the same root word, but they are very different. I am still learning how to find the exact Greek word in Strong's.

ἦλθον       V-2AAI3P  Verb - Second Aorist Active Indicative - 3rd Person Plural
ἔρχομαι
erchomai   43 examples

 Mat 14:34 - And when they were gone over, they came ^G2064 into the land of Gennesaret.

 

Mar 6:53 - And when they had passed over, they came ^G2064 into the land of Gennesaret, and drew to the shore.

 

Luk 3:12 - Then came ^G2064 also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 

ἐρχόμενοι  V-PNP-NPM  Verb - Present M or P Deponent Participle
ἔρχομαι
erchomai  used only 4 times

 
     Mar 6:31 - And he said unto them, Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place, and rest a  while: for there were many coming ^G2064 and going, and they had no leisure so much as to eat.

 [This is typical present participle with an "ing" ending.

Luk 13:14 - And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come ^G2064 and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.

 [Typical present tense.]

Luk 16:21 - And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came ^G2064 and licked his sores.

 [Strange: past tense! It would not fit to put "are coming" here.]

Rev 7:14 - And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came ^G2064 out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 [It it was used once as past tense, why not again?]

I have to go to church.

 

[iamlamad]

One thing the elder did not say, and that is, "they came from earth: they were just translated...." or something similar. 

Voice translation:
John: Sir, surely you know the answer to your own questions. One of the Elders: These are coming from the time of great suffering and affliction. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, cleansing them pure white.

Affliction: from θλίψεως used in the TR Received text (Textus Receptus) as "tribulation (2x), affliction (4x), trouble (1x), persecution (1x), anguish (1x) " (Strong's)

Do you not find it strange that in John's chronology - he does not get to the midpoint of the week until chapter 11, and Jesus said the days of GT HE spoke of would not begin until after the abomination - why God showed John this great crowd who (according to some theories) came out of a time AFTER chapter 13?

This is why I don't think the elder is speaking of the same GT Jesus spoke of.

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Around the time the two witnesses are raised would be the midpoint from what I read. But I don't know when this happens:

I know you have answered this before but I forgot the answer so if you could give me a brief summary


and explain 
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

if they are killed at the mid point and the same hour is the earthquake and the kingdoms of the world quickly become the Lords,  WHERE IS Satans time to be found HERE?