The Rapture under attack

[Diaste]

On 7/3/2022 at 7:34 PM, OneLight said:

Jesus told us to make disciples of men in every nation, not to scare people about the antichrist.  While making disciples, they will learn about the future events that will unfold shortly, so the antichrist would be covered.  Yet, if all you do is warn people about him and not make disciples, what good are you doing?. 

Not everyone has the same gift or calling. 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

This is not what it says, this is why SINGLE VERSES have to never be used to tell us prophecy in full, Satan uses tricks to deceive people because that his job. So He got the Church of England via the KJV to change DEPARTURE to FALLING AWAY to take a pot shot at the Church of Rome (RCC) because lets face it, both were filled with purely evil men at the time. 

Thus we get a reading of the text that "SUPPOSEDLY" speaking about an end time falling away or DEPARTURE of the Faith when nowhere in the whole passage is FAITH ever spoken about. But a GATHERING unto Jesus is spoken about in the very first verse, so the DEPARTURE indeed happens before the Day of the Lord God's Wrath falls, and the Anti-Christ arrives on the scene also BEFORE the Day of the Lord because ge makes a 7 year deal, so he is making agreements for 3.5 years before the WRATH FALLS (DOTL) that the Thessalonians FEARED they were in, so yes, the DEPARTURE of the Church AND the Anti-Christ both show up BEFORE the Day of God's Wrath Falls. 

If you chose to believe some English translators and the King of England over Pau; and God, so be it. By reading the bible in full the Pre Trib Rapture is obvious. its not eve a debate. 

Yet you will not accept these facts as presented because it doesn't fit your narrative brother. REMEMBER, the Pharisees could see nowhere in the bible where Jesus was spoken about, but it was there, sometime things are not so clear brother, so get off of preconceived ideas. Israel and their leaders just knew Rome was the Fourth Beast, they just knew a Political Leader (Messiah) was coming to save them, but they were in error, the End Time Beast is actually the Little Horn who ARISES out of Rome's head (Europe) and they missed that also.

There are 10 ways to say 'departure' used in the NT. Paul didn't use any of them. Paul wrote 'apostasia'; that's rebellion, revolt, defection. 

Not sure how you can be comfortable denying 'apostasia' appears in 2 Thess 2:3 and then redefining it to mean 'physically leaving from one place to go to another place'.

[OneLight]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not everyone has the same gift or calling. 

That all depends.  If you are talking about assigned positions, as in pastor, evangelist, prophet or a special gift, then I agree.  Yet, are we all not a representative of God?  Are we not to allow Him to live in and through us in everything we do?  That is still how disciples are made, as in the past, by example more than by words.

[Alive]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

There are 10 ways to say 'departure' used in the NT. Paul didn't use any of them. Paul wrote 'apostasia'; that's rebellion, revolt, defection. 

Not sure how you can be comfortable denying 'apostasia' appears in 2 Thess 2:3 and then redefining it to mean 'physically leaving from one place to go to another place'.

I do not understand either. I find the word used twice in the NT. Surely Paul by the Holy Spirit could have used a different word.

Acts 21:21 (NAS20S) and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

2Th. 2:3 (NAS20S) No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the   apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

[Diaste]

39 minutes ago, OneLight said:

That all depends.  If you are talking about assigned positions, as in pastor, evangelist, prophet or a special gift, then I agree.  Yet, are we all not a representative of God?  Are we not to allow Him to live in and through us in everything we do?  That is still how disciples are made, as in the past, by example more than by words.

Not everyone comes to repentance in the same way. 

[Revelation Man]

On 7/7/2022 at 4:54 AM, Diaste said:

There are 10 ways to say 'departure' used in the NT. Paul didn't use any of them. Paul wrote 'apostasia'; that's rebellion, revolt, defection. 

Not sure how you can be comfortable denying 'apostasia' appears in 2 Thess 2:3 and then redefining it to mean 'physically leaving from one place to go to another place'.

I have proven this on this site many times, its obvious that The Departure was pointing unto a specific departure via the use of an "article", which was not necessary in the Greek language, and thus that departure can be seen in verse 1 via the Gathering unto Jesus Christ. 

Is the Falling Away a False Teaching?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the very end,(NOW) as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can “Fall Away”, either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will be snatched up by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my current understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a “Falling Away” from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice (not dodging this) in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament ( Wouldn't a Rapture be a VERB? ), and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the "false teachings of Catholicism". (Wink wink)

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together unto Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a "Falling Away" from the faith. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1500 some odd years at the time (1611) in order to toke a poke at the RCC.

----------------------------

Context, context, context, its always an imperative in biblical studies. The Universe was not created in 6 days, of course, it was created in 6 periods of time, which is what YOWM means. Likewise, nowhere in 2 Thessalonians 2 is Faith ever spoken about, but we do see a Gathering unto Jesus spoken about, thus the definite article was indeed used to point us to that factoid. Now, lets do the same thing, CONTEXT, Rev. 19 shows the Church coming back with Jesus from Heaven whilst the Beast and his minions are still ruling on this earth. All we have to do is follow the lead of the holy written word here. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Revelation Man

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Not everyone comes to repentance in the same way. 

We are not told to bring anyone to repentance, just preach the word and the Holy Spirit will do His job.  I don't see why this is even a concern to you or an excuse not to live as an example to others???

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, OneLight said:

We are not told to bring anyone to repentance, just preach the word and the Holy Spirit will do His job.  I don't see why this is even a concern to you or an excuse not to live as an example to others???

The point is gifts and callings are as diverse as the Holy Spirit wills; 1 Cor 12 points this out concisely. 

"There are different gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different ministries, but the same Lord. 6There are different ways of working, but the same God works all things in all people."

 

[OneLight]

This may be your point ...

21 minutes ago, Diaste said:

The point is gifts and callings are as diverse as the Holy Spirit wills; 1 Cor 12 points this out concisely. 

"There are different gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different ministries, but the same Lord. 6There are different ways of working, but the same God works all things in all people."

 

but my point was ...

On 7/2/2022 at 4:38 PM, OneLight said:

If we are ready, does it really matter when?  Only if we are not ready does it matter ...

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I have proven this on this site many times, its obvious that The Departure was pointing unto a specific departure via the use of an "article", which was not necessary in the Greek language, and thus that departure can be seen in verse 1 via the Gathering unto Jesus Christ. 

Is the Falling Away a False Teaching?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the very end,(NOW) as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can “Fall Away”, either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will be snatched up by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my current understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a “Falling Away” from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice (not dodging this) in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament ( Wouldn't a Rapture be a VERB? ), and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the "false teachings of Catholicism". (Wink wink)

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together unto Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a "Falling Away" from the faith. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1500 some odd years at the time (1611) in order to toke a poke at the RCC.

----------------------------

Context, context, context, its always an imperative in biblical studies. The Universe was nit created in 6 days, of course, it was created in 6 periods of time, which is what YOWM means. Likewise, nowhere in 2 Thessalonians is Faith ever spoken about, but we do see a Gathering unto Jesus spoken about, thus the definite article was indeed used to point us to that factoid. Now, lets do the same thing, CONTEXT, Rev. 19 shows the Church coming back with Jesus from Heaven whilst the Beast and his minions are still ruling on this earth. All we have tp do is follow the lead of the holy written word. 

Ice twists the truth as he must to defend the weakness of his position.

In checking these references: Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12,

2 Timothy 2:19, 1 Timothy 6:5, Luke 2:37, 2 Corinthians 12:8, Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13, the word in each is aphistemi, defined as;

"I make to stand away, draw away, repel, take up a position away from, withdraw from, leave, abstain from."

It's the same in Acts 5:37-38, 15:38, 19:9 and 22:29, a total of 14 times in the NT.

This idea of aphistemi is 'away from' not 'taken to'. 

Trying to make aphistemi equivalent to the abduction/rescue of harpazo is self evident chicanery.

By even the reference of the word as the gathering Mr. Ice is literally saying that instead of being taken to the Lord it's now a standing away from the Lord. 

I don't think we have to wonder further about the identity of the promoters of the falling away.