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Posted
6 hours ago, johann pretorius said:

Would you agree we ought to read/study, daily, like Bereans, our bibles @Omegaman 3.0?
if I should say to you I don't read/study the scriptures, or whenever I "feel" like, since I am being "led" by the Spirit, how would you answer me?

Well, there is no command to read the Bible at any particular interval as far as I know. Paul called the Bereans noble, because they did study the scriptures daily, not just taking Paul's word for it. Of course, at the time, there was no New Testament, so they would have been studying the scriptures, probably of Hebrew in the local synagogue. Likely, they were hearing things about Messiah, that was different that what they thought they knew, and the probably were aware that Paul was trained as a Pharisee, and was not some bumpkin, but a man of knowledge. They were right to be skeptical, but the checked the scriptures to determine if what Paul was saying was true.

I think the Bereans are a good model for us, when we have questions, or are skeptical of the teachings of others, or just hunger to know more about our Lord and how to live a life pleasing to Him. I certainly have no problem with those who want to read/study the scriptures daily, and I have a club on this website to assist people it doing that very thing. However, I cannot be the Holy Spirit to anyone, it is between individuals and God, how often and how deeply they want to get to know Him and His teachings.  I would add also, that for the Bereans to go the the synagogue and look through scrolls, was a more difficult task that we have with our printed Bibles all bound in one book, with chapter headings and verse, cross referencing, chapter headings and all of that, not to mention being able to search scriptures on our computers and phones and online. If the saying "to whom much is given, much shall be required" applies to scripture reading, we are accountable for a lot, we are so, so blessed!

As far as being "led", certainly the Spirit can lead some to study more diligently than others, but I sincerely doubt He leads anyone to avoid reading the scriptures. That would be similar to me writing a letter to someone, and then telling them not to read it!

Does this answer your question johann?


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Posted
2 hours ago, Hands On said:

How do you know God exists?

Here is the scriptural answer to that:

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. - Rom 1:19-20 ESV

But ask the beasts, and they will teach you; the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you; or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you; and the fish of the sea will declare to you. Who among all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind. - Job 12:7-10 

The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory. - Psa 97:6 

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."  - Psa 14:1 


 


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Posted
32 minutes ago, johann pretorius said:

You have adequately answer my question but I am afraid I am on my way out.
The Mods are on me for violation of terms.
God bless
J.

Perhaps reading the TOS and taking it to heart is the solution. The Terms of Service are very important and make it possible for this forum to exist without blowing up.

Surely, you must understand this.


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Posted
2 minutes ago, johann pretorius said:

I'm not going to answer, since that would also come across a breaking TOS.

Actually, it was a rhetorical question. No answer necessary or expected.

My post was an exhortation (in the positive) and as much for any member reading.

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Posted

Hey @Starise,

You mentioned some thought-provoking things and tagged Dr. Michael S. Heiser. He is one of the few scholars who directs his teaching to us lay people to understand” The Unseen Realm.” I can say his work has altered my previous worldview on the supernatural without a doubt.

The Lord ordained human government (I’ll skip the details). It appears to be a pattern of heavenly government. Spiritual beings participate in “divine councils” and offer suggestions and actions, and carry them out with God’s approval; for example:

1 Kings 22: 19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: pI saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and qall the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, Who shall ||persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. 22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be ra lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.[1]

In some places where the Lord says “let us,” most expositors adamantly claim it is the Trinity speaking between themselves. As if One of the God Head came up with the idea and is sharing His thoughts. That makes no sense to me; an outside interested party is present.

From Genesis to Revelation, the whole Bible is supernatural. Most expositors accept the supernatural virgin birth, the resurrections, and miracles. Many scholars shrug off events in Gen. 6:1-5, Deu, 32, and much of Revelation as impossible because of this and that.

They will even go so far as to translate “sons of God” as sons of Israel, hundreds of years before Jacob (Israel).

 

 

 
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Posted
42 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hey @Starise,

You mentioned some thought-provoking things and tagged Dr. Michael S. Heiser. He is one of the few scholars who directs his teaching to us lay people to understand” The Unseen Realm.” I can say his work has altered my previous worldview on the supernatural without a doubt.

The Lord ordained human government (I’ll skip the details). It appears to be a pattern of heavenly government. Spiritual beings participate in “divine councils” and offer suggestions and actions, and carry them out with God’s approval; for example:

1 Kings 22: 19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: pI saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and qall the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, Who shall ||persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. 22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be ra lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.[1]

In some places where the Lord says “let us,” most expositors adamantly claim it is the Trinity speaking between themselves. As if One of the God Head came up with the idea and is sharing His thoughts. That makes no sense to me; an outside interested party is present.

From Genesis to Revelation, the whole Bible is supernatural. Most expositors accept the supernatural virgin birth, the resurrections, and miracles. Many scholars shrug off events in Gen. 6:1-5, Deu, 32, and much of Revelation as impossible because of this and that.

They will even go so far as to translate “sons of God” as sons of Israel, hundreds of years before Jacob (Israel).

 

 

 

I think the 'reality' and the 'tangible-ness?' of the heavenly UNSEEN world really hit me when I read
 

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.


It was to be made to specific specifications because it was a copy of the HEAVENLY ONE.  How is that for LIFE in the Spiritual realm being just as real as the life in this one?  Makes it so much easier to see and understand the difference between those who never die and those who do.  


Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Which is why I never saw/have never seen 'the church' as a separate entity,  but just a calling of Gods people in a different way and  of a different kind worship, a way in which FORGIVENESS is attained not by what a person physically does ,  but what the heart and mind of that person knows and feels and does,  because whether in this body or the one that follows, we ARE what we think and feel.  

I've never heard Heiser myself but have heard a few mention him and sounds like he might be good.  
 

Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

the scattered sheep who hear His voice and the whomsoever will, ONE BODY.  
 

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

Hebrews 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

Hebrews 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the Mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

Hebrews 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

Hebrews 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Hebrews 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Hebrews 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Hebrews 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Hebrews 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

I like the Greek layout of the words better

[it was] necessary then [for] the indeed representations of the things in the heavens, with these to be purified themselves however the heavenly things  with better sacrifices than these



Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

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Posted
11 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

What He has said though, is that believers, when they die, they go to be present with the Lord, while their bodies remain behind on earth (in the grave).

Dear Omegaman, please understand ANYONES name could be placed where your name is,  as this is to EVERYONE/anyone in hopes that SOMEONE WILL STEP UP WITH some answers, or at THE VERY LEAST quit saying it so I can quit going crazy every time someone does.  



1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?


1  Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


1  Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?


1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
 

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

WHY WOULD AIR/breath/spirit NEED A ROBE?  Or GOD a throne?

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.


John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

 

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.



I realize EVERYONE wants to KEEP believing what they were taught BUT GET REAL.  

How many different places does it need to be written?  Why are there temples and chairs and wars and armies and books and hands and feet and and and and and????   


PLEASE WOULD SOMEONE SHOW ME WHERE IT SAYS we go to heaven WITHOUT A BODY,  so I can JOIN UP WITH ALL OF YOU


PLEAS WOULD SOMEONE/anyone/EVERYONE show me WHERE IS SAYS we come back TO BE REUNITED with a DEAD BODY MADE ALIVE?


Cause ALL I CAN FIND is THE DEAD being resurrected.  THE DEAD rising up THE DEAD IN CHRIST being raised.  

What is my PROBLEM with THE LIVING being raised up out from the DEAD?  besides the NEVER DIE PART?  

 

BECAUSE of when the DEAD ARE JUDGED, making IT IMPOSSIBLE to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years.  


I AM WILLING TO BE WRONG WRON WRONG DEAD WRONG if only someone will SHOW ME WHERE IT IS WRITTEN

BECAUSE as of RIGHT NOW it is just a doctrine of man


Even those who believe they are 'the GENTILE CHURCH' and have nothing to do with ISRAEL 

fall backwards and speak of 

'the last day' that the OLD COVENANT people were looking forward to. (which ALREADY took place when the GRAVES were opened) (which reminds me, when DID THEY GET CLOSED AGAIN AND WHO DID IT?)


AND yes, all the CAPITOL LETTERS ARE YELLING because I KEEP asking these same questions and I KNOW YOU ALL SEE THEM yet NO ONE will give me any SCRIPTURE they are using to say that we QUIT BEING BEINGS and become spirit/air/whatever 

even though YOU ALL BELIEVE IT.  Why doesn't anyone want to share this information with me?  NOT ONE PERSON EVER HAS.  I have asked again and again and again....



Sorry back to SCRIPTURE  

2Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 


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Posted

I could be wrong, but only the dead are eligible for resurrection from the dead. 

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Posted

Sorry DeighAnn,

In spite of all that vebiage, and what I expect were carefully considered words, I am not sure exactly, what your question is. Yes, you were specific, but I was confused anyway, but I will try to respond to at least some of what I think you are asking. I am not sure where to start so I think I will just post some tidbits, of what I think I understand to be correct, and maybe I'll get lucky and hit at least one of your nails on the head.

What happens upon the death of the body?

Ecc 12:6 before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern, 7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. 

2 Cor 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

That sounds as though the spirit or soul, of some sort of non-corporeal thing, still exists, but is separated from the body.

 

Quote

SHOW ME WHERE IT SAYS we go to heaven WITHOUT A BODY

I guess that depends on how you define heaven, there is more that one heaven in the Bible, and more than one kind of heaven in the Bible. If being with the Lord counts as being in Heaven, then I think 2 Cor 5:8 shows that.

Quote

PLEAS WOULD SOMEONE/anyone/EVERYONE show me WHERE IS SAYS we come back TO BE REUNITED with a DEAD BODY MADE ALIVE?

That one I cannot quite help you with, based on a technicality. I don't think it is quite accurate to say, that we are reunited with the body that died as such. If it were the same exact body, it would not be eternal, and it cannot go to Heaven.

1 Cor 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

That seems to say, that both the living and the dead (in Christ) will be changed, so it is not the same body we died in. Also in 1 Cor 15:

 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.

Again, God gives a body, not just making a decaying corpse stand up again. That would be the corruptible, not the incorruptible.

Quote

 

What is my PROBLEM with THE LIVING being raised up out from the DEAD?  besides the NEVER DIE PART?  

BECAUSE of when the DEAD ARE JUDGED, making IT IMPOSSIBLE to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years.  

 

Okay, there are a couple of things there.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 

So, our (Christians) sin has already been Judged, Jesus died in our place, and we are righteous before God, no judgement of our souls is necessary, we have already been pronounced, not guilty. As not guilty and indeed possessing the righteousness of Christ, we are co-heirs, and able to reign with Him. The question is, who or what will we reign over, but that is another topic.

In 2 Cor 5, it says:

8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

I believe that is a judgment, to determine how believers will be rewarded for how they lived their lives. I think that is probably also what is being alluded to in 1 Cor 3

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11  For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Now there is another judgement event, we see in Rev 20

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now in my opinion, this is talking about the final judgement, and we see two groups of people, those written in the book of life, and those who are not. Their end is tragic. This goes to your question about about the reign during the 1000 years. This great white throne judgement, is after the 1000 years. we see that in verses 4 to 6:

4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

We see in that section, that there are Christians (those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God), and we see that they had lived during the great tribulation (they did not worship the beast or receive his mark). They, the Christian martyrs of the tribulation, had been slain, but then they came to life and reigned with Christ for 1000 years.

Now, for them to reign with Christ as resurrected people, they have to have resurrected before the 1000 years. Since they we in the tribulation, we know that they were not "raptured" before the tribulation. Not the topic here, but it aids in our understanding. This is referred to in the passage as "the first resurrection" Earlier we say in verse 14, we saw that there was a thing called the second death, where people were thrown into the lake of fire.

Verse 5 tells us about the first resurrection, and that those who are in it, are immune to the second death. As we saw, they were resurrected prior to the millennium, so they WILL be able to reign with Christ.

I don't know if I missed anything, but I am late for an appointment and must leave, feel free to ask me to deal with what I missed. I hope this was in some way helpful.

 

 

 

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