Universalism

[missmuffet]

Many people hold the belief that everyone is going to heaven. The Bible is clear that the unredeemed will dwell forever in hell. 

Matthew 25:46

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

[Not of the World]

2 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Many people hold the belief that everyone is going to heaven.

How many do you believe are going to Hell?

[AdHoc]

On 10/21/2022 at 8:43 PM, missmuffet said:

Many people hold the belief that everyone is going to heaven. The Bible is clear that the unredeemed will dwell forever in hell. 

Matthew 25:46

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

How about I summarize and then we see which way things go.

God has a plan. You can join Him, or you can be indifferent or you can oppose Him. Because He is God, He will achieve His plan - with, or without you. The Bible begins with a pristine earth that "became" (lit. Heb.) a chaos. God decided to change the government on earth. Whereas it was subject to principalities before, God mad e a new creature to replace angels in the management of the earth. This man disobeyed God and unwittingly cooperated with the angel he was supposed to subdue. God started a recovery plan. It revolved around the "Seed of the woman". Men, women and angels showed no inclination for God's plan and shortly God must wipe out all mankind, except for eight whose "generations were perfect". That is, the way these eight were "generated" was original. The "Seed of the woman" was still intact and God is able to "generate" original mankind.

Because mankind, even in his original format, tended away from God, God turned His plan to a minority representation - the "seed of one" called Abraham - a Syrian. Through intervention in Sarah's dead womb, God raised up a people who would (i) possess Canaan, (ii) produce kings, (iii) possess the Gates of his enemies, and (iv) become a great nation. Again mankind fails. God sends His Son as "Seed of the woman", but He is rejected and His nation (for He is still their King) murder Him. Again, God simply raises up a New People, this time with His Son Jesus' nature. In all this his sovereignty and glory is shown but His plan is intact. The murder of His Son is used as a propitiation for men's sins and God is in the position to extend mercy to who He wants.

God allows 4,000 years for the seed of Adam to rule the earth and they fail. God then offers all men forgiveness and reconciliation. The New Man accepts this offer, Israel refuses it and the Nations ignore it. When the offer of propitiation is mature, and all families of earth have heard of it. God sends His Son, still legal King of Israel, to set matters in order on EARTH. He does so with great military might and the kings promises to Abraham are chosen to rule the earth with Godly rule. Jesus rules Israel Locally and all the earth by His co-kings - men who have embraced the propitiation and cooperated with God in their training as kings, and who enjoy an early resurrection.

With God's new government in place, three problems remain which have to be subdued and solved:

1. God's government under Jesus Christ must be tested, for it is an "everlasting Kingdom"
2. All men die as result of their sinful natures. Death must be stopped and defeated
3. All men who actively opposed God must meet with the consequences

-   After a thousand years of Christ's government on earth, it is tested by a massive rebel army. God takes this attack on His Kingdom and Capital City - Jerusalem, very personally. The huge army is wiped out by military intervention from heaven.
-   Hades, though a "bottomless pit" is full of the souls of dead men, especially after the last great battle of Magog. Christ, Who has the keys to the Gates of Hades, open them and every man who ever died is made a live. The problem of the flesh and its Adamic nature is solved. Death is solved.
-   Those men and woman, who actively went against God and/or His plan suffer God's vengeance by God adding suffering of the flesh ("their worm") and a suffering of the soul ("their fire"). Gods honor and justice are satisfied. All babies who died at infancy/childhood, all mentally damaged*, all men and woman who did not actively go against God, enjoy being SUBJECTS under God's new Government ON EARTH. Israel receive mercy because of (i) their Covenants and (ii) because God promised it. The New Man (the Church) receives mercy based on Jesus' efficacy. The legal requirements of a righteous God are all met because;

• Jesus died for the "sin" (singular - the Adamic nature) of the WORLD (Jn.1.29), THUS ALLOWING RESURRECTION FOR ALL MEN
• Jesus died for the "sins" (plural - men's trespasses) of the WORLD (1 Jn.2.2), THUS ALLOWING GOD TO BE MERCIFUL TO WHO HE WANTS.

1. The Church escapes and RULES THE EARTH (not heaven) in bliss
2. Israel escape but lose the Kingdom. They gain their Land and SERVE GOD ON EARTH - in peace
3. Some of the Nations escape AT GOD'S DISCRETION (Babies, etc.) and live in "righteousness, peace and joy"
4. Some of the Nations are cast into eternal suffering for going against God and His plan. Their worm will not die and their fire is not ever quenched. Justice prevails.

• This scenario defeats "Universalism"
• This scenario makes EARTH the goal and not heaven
• This scenario glorifies God in His righteousness and justice, and allows His MERCY to some - based on the works of Christ

* edited out of the text.

Edited October 22, 2022 by AdHoc
English judged offensive by some.

[Dennis1209]

In last Sunday’s service, in the pastor’s sermon, he mentioned something I was aware of already. If each born-again Christian would plant the seed of the Gospel, tell someone about what Jesus did for them. If only one of those people came to the Lord and got saved, look at the explosion of people that would not see hell.

Experts’ best guesstimates are that 108 billion people have ever lived. Of that number, based on history, I must assume the majority are in torment right now.

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

How about I summarize and then we see which way things go.

God has a plan. You can join Him, or you can be indifferent or you can oppose Him. Because He is God, He will achieve His plan - with, or without you. The Bible begins with a pristine earth that "became" (lit. Heb.) a chaos. God decided to change the government on earth. Whereas it was subject to principalities before, God mad e a new creature to replace angels in the management of the earth. This man disobeyed God and unwittingly cooperated with the angel he was supposed to subdue. God started a recovery plan. It revolved around the "Seed of the woman". Men, women and angels showed no inclination for God's plan and shortly God must wipe out all mankind, except for eight whose "generations were perfect". That is, the way these eight were "generated" was original. The "Seed of the woman" was still intact and God is able to "generate" original mankind.

Because mankind, even in his original format, tended away from God, God turned His plan to a minority representation - the "seed of one" called Abraham - a Syrian. Through intervention in Sarah's dead womb, God raised up a people who would (i) possess Canaan, (ii) produce kings, (iii) possess the Gates of his enemies, and (iv) become a great nation. Again mankind fails. God sends His Son as "Seed of the woman", but He is rejected and His nation (for He is still their King) murder Him. Again, God simply raises up a New People, this time with His Son Jesus' nature. In all this his sovereignty and glory is shown but His plan is intact. The murder of His Son is used as a propitiation for men's sins and God is in the position to extend mercy to who He wants.

God allows 4,000 years for the seed of Adam to rule the earth and they fail. God then offers all men forgiveness and reconciliation. The New Man accepts this offer, Israel refuses it and the Nations ignore it. When the offer of propitiation is mature, and all families of earth have heard of it. God sends His Son, still legal King of Israel, to set matters in order on EARTH. He does so with great military might and the kings promises to Abraham are chosen to rule the earth with Godly rule. Jesus rules Israel Locally and all the earth by His co-kings - men who have embraced the propitiation and cooperated with God in their training as kings, and who enjoy an early resurrection.

With God's new government in place, three problems remain which have to be subdued and solved:

1. God's government under Jesus Christ must be tested, for it is an "everlasting Kingdom"
2. All men die as result of their sinful natures. Death must be stopped and defeated
3. All men who actively opposed God must meet with the consequences

-   After a thousand years of Christ's government on earth, it is tested by a massive rebel army. God takes this attack on His Kingdom and Capital City - Jerusalem, very personally. The huge army is wiped out by military intervention from heaven.
-   Hades, though a "bottomless pit" is full of the souls of dead men, especially after the last great battle of Magog. Christ, Who has the keys to the Gates of Hades, open them and every man who ever died is made a live. The problem of the flesh and its Adamic nature is solved. Death is solved.
-   Those men and woman, who actively went against God and/or His plan suffer God's vengeance by God adding suffering of the flesh ("their worm") and a suffering of the soul ("their fire"). Gods honor and justice are satisfied. All babies who died at infancy/childhood, all retards*, all men and woman who did not actively go against God, enjoy being SUBJECTS under God's new Government ON EARTH. Israel receive mercy because of (i) their Covenants and (ii) because God promised it. The New Man (the Church) receives mercy based on Jesus' efficacy. The legal requirements of a righteous God are all met because;

• Jesus died for the "sin" (singular - the Adamic nature) of the WORLD (Jn.1.29), THUS ALLOWING RESURRECTION FOR ALL MEN
• Jesus died for the "sins" (plural - men's trespasses) of the WORLD (1 Jn.2.2), THUS ALLOWING GOD TO BE MERCIFUL TO WHO HE WANTS.

1. The Church escapes and RULES THE EARTH (not heaven) in bliss
2. Israel escape but lose the Kingdom. They gain their Land and SERVE GOD ON EARTH - in peace
3. Some of the Nations escape AT GOD'S DISCRETION (Babies, retards, etc.) and live in "righteousness, peace and joy"
4. Some of the Nations are cast into eternal suffering for going against God and His plan. Their worm will not die and their fire is not ever quenched. Justice prevails.

• This scenario defeats "Universalism"
• This scenario makes EARTH the goal and not heaven
• This scenario glorifies God in His righteousness and justice, and allows His MERCY to some - based on the works of Christ

* "Retard" - a common and correct English term for any person who is delayed or held back in terms of normal progress or development.

Retard is a offensive. It is a word used years ago. The correct word now is disabled. 

[Jayne]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

Retard is a offensive. It is a word used years ago. The correct word now is disabled. 

Mentally retarded is still somewhat acceptable and still used as a diagnosis for the mentally challenged.

But you are correct.  The word "retard" is grossly offensive and is meant to insult.  As in "don't be such a retard!" or "that's so retarded".

I've had to correct many a junior high boy for using the word as an insult.

 

[DeighAnn]

 

God has a plan. You can join Him or you can oppose Him. He is God, He will achieve His plan - CHOOSE LIFE OR CHOOSE DEATH.  The Bible begins with an earth that "became" (lit. Heb.) a chaos".  It became a chaos because of Satans fall.  He had walked in the garden of God, had been made the full pattern,  was in charge of kings and kingdoms UNTIL iniquity was found in him and "his tail drew 1/3 of the stars...a".... and

now here we are OF the earth in this 'age'.  

God creates man of the dust and the spirit (that will return to Him).  The people having multiplied, He chooses one man , the man Abram.  He makes promises to him that span from that day until the new heaven and earth, Abraham  becomes the father of many nations.  To him, Isaac and then to Jacob will be more promises, with more details.  God is going to use this people not only to be born through this bloodline,  but also to get HIS WORDS WRITTEN. 

Satan is going to oppose everything, at every step of the way,  the best he can.  So man,  made in OUR IMAGE (Jesus looks just like the FATHER, so we know whos image He was created in) and the spirits from above begin to live in the flesh.  We know this from   

28:11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.

28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

28:16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

So Jacob renamed Israel has 12 Sons.  His son Joseph is sold off to Egypt where he rises to be next in line to Pharaoh. Famine hits, his family comes and in the next generation become slaves and  the next 400 years as slaves grow into a large 'people'.  God performs miracles,  parts the Red Sea so His people cross over... and complain and are scared to follow His orders and so found in the wilderness for 40 years till Moses dies and they enter into the land promised becoming the nation of Israel.  Soon, they start backsliding, want an earthly king, get one, and he gets kicked out for David as everything goes well until his son Solomon comes to the throne and then sin begins to run rampant and God divides the nation into two nations.  (One, the House of Judah, will produce the Messiah.  The House of Israel will come a group of nations and a great nation which will be a blessing to the world)


Now split into two, they will both SIN and then go into captivity but House of Israel about 200 years before and when they are  released will become the lost sheep of the House of Israel,  to be sifted through the nations on the way to the land God appointed them,  forgetting who they are.

The other will be set free from captivity to go back and build the temple for the birth of Christ.  Once rejected and crucified in 40 years the temple is destroyed (not needing that anymore as now the 'lost sheep' will be receiving and taking the GOOD NEWS to the world.  Now the House of Judah is scattered but they NEVER forget who they are, they are never 'lost'  but they will  will become a by word and a taunt????not that word.  


So the House of Israel go to the North and the West, in the isles, in great waters, to become a company of nations where God plants and they will grow and then grow too big again and then send people to another land and then lose it that land and that land becomes a great nation.  We can't forget they were ALREADY into this dispersion 200 years before Christ ever walk the earth. 


So while JUDAH or the Jews will be BLINDED to "who Christ REALLY is"  until the time of the end, THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL are definitely NOT BLINDED BECAUSE 'the sheep hear His voice' and come a running. 

SO the NEW PEOPLE are actually THE OLD people mixed with whomsoever would of the other 'nations'.    We know this to be true because JESUS said He wasn't going to lose any of those He came for and there has only been one place for them  TO FIND HIM  for the past 2000 years. 

And who multiplies quicker than everyone else? 

Before Christ returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, we are told that Satan and his angels will be tossed out of heaven and he is coming to overcome the world THROUGH DECEPTION and lying signs and wonders.  

Also told,  GOD is sending His Two witnesses first and so we will be seeing MIRACLES on earth, just like those witnessed in the past. 

Only when Satan kills the two witnesses and they rise up,  will Christ, as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS return with ALL the saints who have 'never died' because they followed Christ to the Kingdom of God.   

That is when all those who didn't FOLLOW (they didn't know the way)  will either be resurrected from the dead (or remain 'dead' till the end of the 1000 years)

The day of the Lord begins in which "the priests" who returned with Christ to teach the 'resurrected dead' while they try to get their names written in the book of life.  At the end of that day (1000) years, Satan is loosed and fire comes down from heaven and destroys those who follow him. 

Then the resurrected dead stand at the GWTJ followed by hell death and the sea giving up their dead and either their names are found in the book of life (2nd resurrection) or they go into the lake of fire which is the death of the body and the soul THE PUNISHMENT BEING DEATH, which is the end, the end forever,  never can even be any sort of a resurrection EVER AGAIN because no one and nothing left, EVEN THE SMOKE is gone up and VANISHED.

New Heaven and New Earth

The only way to go to heaven is at the death of the flesh body.  There is no other way and no other time.  Those who die and follow Him to heaven will follow Him to earth to rule and reign.  The earth is the goal.

This way the CHURCH aka the alive and remaining those who endure to the end and to receive the promises are HERE ON EARTH until Christ returns and He has those on earth who will Glorify Him and those He brings with Him.  


This makes it so that those who are made new creatures and are told they will never die, never die but follow Him and are brought back with Him.  EXACTLY AS IT IS WRITTEN.  

This makes it so those who never die ARE NEVER RESURRECTED OUT FROM THE DEAD, THE DEAD who,  incidentally, ARE BOTH DEAD and have died.

This allows for all the men from Kings on down to bond servants whos flesh become supper, those tossed into the wine press, the tares who are gathered and burn, the remnant who are killed with the sword and all who have ever died before that having not been born from above, to POSSIBLY BE AROUND for the Lords Day.  

THOSE who ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN until Christ returns are CHANGED TO BE EVER WITH THE LORD.  (IMMORTAL)

THAT MEANS THERE IS NO ONE LEFT ALIVE AND REMAINING AFTER THAT.  SINCE ALL THAT ARE CHANGED ARE EVER WITH THE LORD 

So ONCE THE WORD OF GOD HAS GONE OUT UNTO THE WHOLE WORLD,  those who take the mark have got to die.  

Everyone who takes the mark of the beast dies and and the alive and remaining are changed.    AKA The HARVEST is the tares are bundled and burned and the saved are gathered to Him.  

THEN

The dead are resurrected, the EXACT SAME DEAD who will stand at the GWTJ in 1000 years.  

NO ONE who has been made a new creature, who has never died, who has received eternal life, is WAITING FOR A 2ND RESURRECTION.  They have been resurrected ALREADY.  
There are  NOT 2 RESURRECTIONS written of,  IN THE WORDS OF GOD,  for the living and/or the never die. 

THERE is NOTHING written that says there is a resurrection of the spirit and ANOTHER resurrection of a dead carcass.   

And until SOMEONE SHOWS THAT TO BE FALSE, it shouldn't ever be taught.  



 

[missmuffet]

3 hours ago, Jayne said:

Mentally retarded is still somewhat acceptable and still used as a diagnosis for the mentally challenged.

But you are correct.  The word "retard" is grossly offensive and is meant to insult.  As in "don't be such a retard!" or "that's so retarded".

I've had to correct many a junior high boy for using the word as an insult.

 

No it is not acceptable. It is rude and degrading. 

[Who me]

12 hours ago, Not of the World said:

How many do you believe are going to Hell?

All who do not believe.

John3:16-18, All who do not believe in me, are Already condemned.

[Not of the World]

1 hour ago, Who me said:

John3:16-18, All who do not believe in me, are Already condemned.

Is it possible that, while they are condemned, that Jesus will show them mercy and give them a "stay of execution" in the end?