The woman in Revelation 12

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

I'll just pick out one thing we can focus on at a time - Jesus Himself is not the only one that will "rule the nations with an iron rod."  This is also said of His overcomers in Rev. 2:27. So do you see from this that there is a slight possibility that it's perhaps not Jesus it's referring to here?

Interesting to bring this one up, it did not get my attention till you brought this up.

What is that you are asking is a secondary situation, to have the overcomers rule the Nations in that way, which we cannot deny that...as we cannot deny that Jesus said that he will let the over-comers sit with him on his Throne.

But the underlining principle is Jesus said as the Father let me sit on the Throne with him, I will let "those he is referring to, to sit with him on his Throne not on the Father's Throne but on his Throne...

In rev ch 12 the reference to the dragon waiting for the child to be born to do harm to him it is said to be for the  one who was preordained to bring to the end the rein of the devil on the humanity, to take keys of Death and Hades to end their authority, not only to take the people at death but also to surrender all those they have been taken and keep them.

Jesus said " I have the Keys of Death and Hades many things has changed The Devil only get those who denied to believe in me..

Rev. 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star. 29 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

2) Who is the Woman? Like the Manchild, the Woman-with-child is a mystical body. Not the Church, which is a Virgin Bride. And not the race of Israel, which is flesh-and-blood.

Western left-brain Protestant Christianity has largely ignored any concept of the Feminine Divine, even though the Adamic race was “made in Elohim’s image, male and female.” Gen. 1:27 Catholicism has carnalized the Feminine Divine into the person of Mary. Only mystical Judaism, and to some extent mystical Christianity, have spoken of the Feminine Divine.

Hebraic teachings of old say that one of the attributes of the One God is the emotional desire to form, gestate, bring forth and nurture living creatures. This tradition also says that when Adam and Eve were driven out of God’s garden into the earthly wilderness, this Divine Feminine either went with them or regularly visited them, in order to nurture her children as any mother would. The most well-known name for her is the Shekhinah, the feminine Presence/form of the Divine.

This mystical Woman/mother – emotionally bound to the nurturing of her children, and to their upbringing in wisdom, righteousness, and maturity – is spoken of in Ezekiel:

Ezek. 19:2, 10-13 What is thy mother? A lioness: she lay down among lions, she nourished her whelps among young lions. … Thy mother is like a vine in thy blood [the place of the soul, Lev. 17:11], planted by the waters: she was fruitful and full of branches by reason of many waters. And she had strong rods for the scepters of them that bore rule, and her stature was exalted among the thick branches, and she appeared in her height with the multitude of her branches. But she was plucked up in fury, she was cast down to the ground, and the east wind dried up her fruit: her strong rods were broken and withered; the fire consumed them. And now she is planted in the wilderness, in a dry and thirsty ground.

In Revelation 12’s account of the End Times, the Woman again goes “into the wilderness” when her offspring are driven out once more. Rev. 12:6, 14-17; Luke 21:36

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1053-revelation-12/

 

The Lord God Almighty is his name...when he left everything he was born as Jesus. The Son of God, the Son of Man...

They Hebraic teachings of this kind are not divine and they are many and of different kinds...many different groups all of them from cultist origins...

The Pharisees did not believe that and did not teach that..

 

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Hard to say.  I heard a brother speaking yesterday on chapter 12, and he said it was very difficult to determine what this flood coming out of the dragon's mouth is, and most commentators appear puzzled too.  However, to take a guess, if it's coming out of his mouth it's sure to be lies and misinformation! Now the earth swallowing up the flood . . . completely clueless! 

Shalom, Vine Abider.

This analogy doesn't ring true. How does the "earth swallowing up the flood" of lies and misinformation "help the woman?"

Revelation 12:13-17 (KJV)

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And THE EARTH HELPED THE WOMAN, AND THE EARTH OPENED HER MOUTH, AND SWALLOWED UP THE FLOOD WHICH THE DRAGON CAST OUT OF HIS MOUTH. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why can't one see this a bit more literally? The dragon, seeing that the woman was getting away (downhill), gushed water after the woman, trying to inundate her and drown her, but the earth cracked open and drained the water! Then, seeing that she got away, he decided to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeeshuwa` being the Messiah. (Messianic believers or "Christians!")

One doesn't have to go all "weird" with an analogy, trying to fit the facts to the analogy.

I should have added that I believe, through the imagery of Yowceef ("Joseph," Genesis 37), that the "woman" is indeed "Israel," the people, from whom came the Messiah, Yeeshuwa`, the One caught unto God and to His Father's throne.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Retrobyter
To add a point

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hadn't heard this stuff before.

Shalom, Uriah.

The feminine emotions and abilities of handling more options at one time, are certainly traits of YHWH God, for He CREATED the woman from the man! Males are more equipped for the grimness of war and are more single-minded than females are.

They are (I am, at least) not very good when it comes to "multi-tasking." Women, on the other hand, (in general) are built to "multi-task," an essential ability for motherhood!

So, it only stands to reason that God has a "feminine side," so to speak. We find it in the Holy Spirit of God who is also called the "Comforter" and the "Advocate" or the "Help," as Chavah ("Eve") was for Adam. (John 14:26) We just still give Him the masculine pronoun, but the Hebrew word "Shekhinah" IS a feminine word, with a feminine "-ah" suffix. One should just be careful not to take this to extremes and think of God as being either male or female! We usually give Him the male pronouns, because the woman was made in response to the man's needs, and because of the curse, which put her in subjection to the man, thus making the man the more responsible for the two. God is responsible for His WHOLE Creation, thus, He is OVER the man, and the man is in subjection to HIM!

In this, @WilliamL is not wrong.

[Dennis1209]

20 hours ago, Uriah said:

Not settled on the meaning of this:

Rev 12- 16- And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 

I have thought that it was perhaps something to do with Christians worldwide in an outcry or other effort.

Or, even though the timing seems to be off, a connection to:

Rev 11:13-  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

 

These are my thoughts and are not necessarily accurate:

About three and a half years into the Tribulation, the abomination of desolation occurs. The persecution and killing of the Jews start in earnest. The Jewish population will likely flee to Petra, Jordan, the caves, and the wilderness. One-third of the people will make it there and survive; the Antichrist will kill two-thirds. For some reason, Antichrist does not invade and conquer Jordan.

If Satan can kill all of the Jews, or change even one biblical prophecy, he wins. That is not going to happen. 

This remnant will have to forge the Jordan River to get to Petra, Jordan. Israel has early and later rains that can produce flooding of the Jordan. However, this seems to be a supernatural flooding to stop the escape of the remnant of Israel.

We know from the book of Job that Satan and the princes and powers of the air can control the weather. They were allowed to kill all of Job’s children with a whirlwind (possibly a tornado).

Supernaturally or by an earthquake, the earth opens, and it swallows up the river allowing the remnant to cross.

Those are my thoughts currently, anyway.

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Vine Abider.

This analogy doesn't ring true. How does the "earth swallowing up the flood" of lies and misinformation "help the woman?"

Revelation 12:13-17 (KJV)

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And THE EARTH HELPED THE WOMAN, AND THE EARTH OPENED HER MOUTH, AND SWALLOWED UP THE FLOOD WHICH THE DRAGON CAST OUT OF HIS MOUTH. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why can't one see this a bit more literally? The dragon, seeing that the woman was getting away (downhill), gushed water after the woman, trying to inundate her and drown her, but the earth cracked open and drained the water! Then, seeing that she got away, he decided to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeeshuwa` being the Messiah. (Messianic believers or "Christians!")

One doesn't have to go all "weird" with an analogy, trying to fit the facts to the analogy.

Could be.  No one knows, except Him.  Many things in Revelation are speculation with smart people offering many different opinions.  As it says in Daniel 12, it's all sealed up until the end.

[Uriah]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Uriah.

The feminine emotions and abilities of handling more options at one time, are certainly traits of YHWH God, for He CREATED the woman from the man! Males are more equipped for the grimness of war and are more single-minded than females are.

They are (I am, at least) not very good when it comes to "multi-tasking." Women, on the other hand, (in general) are built to "multi-task," an essential ability for motherhood!

So, it only stands to reason that God has a "feminine side," so to speak. We find it in the Holy Spirit of God who is also called the "Comforter" and the "Advocate" or the "Help," as Chavah ("Eve") was for Adam. (John 14:26) We just still give Him the masculine pronoun, but the Hebrew word "Shekhinah" IS a feminine word, with a feminine "-ah" suffix. One should just be careful not to take this to extremes and think of God as being either male or female! We usually give Him the male pronouns, because the woman was made in response to the man's needs, and because of the curse, which put her in subjection to the man, thus making the man the more responsible for the two. God is responsible for His WHOLE Creation, thus, He is OVER the man, and the man is in subjection to HIM!

In this, @WilliamL is not wrong.

Thanks for that Roy. It just seems a bit weird to me to thinking God as a gender blender when we're experiencing a latter day movement of people who espouse such a claim and are considered sinners.

I understand what you are saying since God is the ultimate multitasker and has incomparable compassion, it doesn't necessarily mean these qualities are restricted to being feminine.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Uriah
sp

[Uriah]

34 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

These are my thoughts and are not necessarily accurate:

About three and a half years into the Tribulation, the abomination of desolation occurs. The persecution and killing of the Jews start in earnest. The Jewish population will likely flee to Petra, Jordan, the caves, and the wilderness. One-third of the people will make it there and survive; the Antichrist will kill two-thirds. For some reason, Antichrist does not invade and conquer Jordan.

If Satan can kill all of the Jews, or change even one biblical prophecy, he wins. That is not going to happen. 

This remnant will have to forge the Jordan River to get to Petra, Jordan. Israel has early and later rains that can produce flooding of the Jordan. However, this seems to be a supernatural flooding to stop the escape of the remnant of Israel.

We know from the book of Job that Satan and the princes and powers of the air can control the weather. They were allowed to kill all of Job’s children with a whirlwind (possibly a tornado).

Supernaturally or by an earthquake, the earth opens, and it swallows up the river allowing the remnant to cross.

Those are my thoughts currently, anyway.

A distinct possibility for sure. BTW I differ on the 7 year thing. 

[WilliamL]

On 11/7/2022 at 5:38 PM, Uriah said:

On 11/7/2022 at 3:20 PM, WilliamL said:

Hebraic teachings of old say that one of the attributes of the One God is the emotional desire to form, gestate, bring forth and nurture living creatures. This tradition also says that when Adam and Eve were driven out of God’s garden into the earthly wilderness, this Divine Feminine either went with them or regularly visited them, in order to nurture her children as any mother would. The most well-known name for her is the Shekhinah, the feminine Presence/form of the Divine.

Hadn't heard this stuff before.

That is because the Gentile church, from its earliest days, has chosen to shun its Hebraic roots. The Jewish faith as a whole had certainly become corrupted; however, exactly the same kinds of corruption entered into the Church early on. And now it is nearing the end of its allotted time.

Although the Church is at the end of its age, remnants of developed wisdom have remained that will be carried over. In the same manner, remnants of the Hebraic wisdom remained during the 1st century even until now. Because truth is only concealed from those who elevate the traditions of men above the revealed light of God.

The woman of Rev. 12 is/cannot be a human being. Despite what the traditions of various institutional churches claim.

Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Micah 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

On 11/7/2022 at 5:50 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

They Hebraic teachings of this kind are not divine and they are many and of different kinds...many different groups all of them from cultist origins...

"They Hebraic teachings of this kind are" both biblical and extra-biblical.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by WilliamL

[Your closest friendnt]

@WilliamL, when I read Isaiah 66:8, I remember revelation 12:17.

It seems that the woman in revelation 12:17, and her children are the children of Zion in Isaiah 66:8, which speaks about a New Nation the Nation of Jesus Christ, the children who live in the mount Zion, justified and sanctified in the name of Jesus.  

Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Revelation 12:17 NIV 

17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.