The Seventh Trumpet and the Period It Heralds

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Diaste

Jesus, in referring to the Daniel prophecy, tells of cataclysms. No, we must determine whether we say THAT is a period of years, months etc. for the cataclysms.

He also says that it will be like the time of Noah/Lot. This conveys the idea that they didn't know what was about to happen. The cataclysm stage IS shown in the most detail in Revelation. 

Some will say it is over a period of 3.5 or 7 yrs. Rev. 11 shows the two witnesses prophesy for 1260 days and are killed. Before they are on their feet again the whole world is looking at their dead bodies for 3.5 days.

That selection seems to have not been experiencing cataclysms. However it is after 1260 days of the witnesses. And it is noted that the beast continues for 42 months, and is captured alive at the time of Jesus' return to fight the armies in Rev. 19.  That beast, who makes war with the witnesses and kills them, appears to already be in power at that time as well. 

This is why I believe that the witnesses and the beast are acting fin time periods that overlap.

I take the occupation of Jerusalem (and of course Israel) will be the beginning of the two witnesses followed shortly by the imposition of the rule of the beast. So the days of the witnesses will end and the beast will last a bit longer until his time is up and the cataclysm will likely IMO start immediately after the witness are taken up.

Yes. I see the same thing more or less. We won't really know till it begins; then there will be no doubt. 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

...

Something that I did not notice until after years of study, and something no scholar, author, or anyone in the web world that I am aware of has yet picked up on, is that at verse 29, Jesus turns His attention to the event of His Sign Appearance (vs. 30), and it is related to this that He speaks for the remainder of the chapter.  Since my realizing of this, I have not been able to un-realize it.  Of course, also important to note is that the prophetic puzzle pieces for verses 29-31 interlock with the prophetic puzzle pieces of John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17).

(Emphasis added.)

Note the bolded words. 

Sorry, friend, but there is no "interlocking" between the signs in Matthew 24, and the signs at the 6th seal. The 6th seal is before the tribulation and the signs in Matthew 24 are after the tribulation.

The signs at the 6th seal will be total eclipses of first the sun, then the moon (or God can cause some other way of making the sun appear black and the moon to appear red). In comparison, the Matthew 24 sign is PITCH DARKNESS for days on end. I could say this another way: at the 6th seal the sun and moon will be (must be) visible. At the Matthew 24 sign, the sun, moon and stars will be invisible.

Finally, these are two very different signs for two very different events. The 6th seal signs are the signs of the coming Day of the Lord, which will begin before the tribulation or 70th week. The signs in Matthew 24 will be the signs of Christ's coming to set up His Kingdom. He will remain here at this coming.

[iamlamad]

I forgot to add, this is the huge mistake that began the false pre-wrath rapture theory.

Robert Van Kampen called Marvin Rosenthal and said, "I've found it!" What he "found" was a huge error in exegesis.

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Diaste

Jesus, in referring to the Daniel prophecy, tells of cataclysms. Now, we must determine whether we say THAT is a period of years, months etc. for the cataclysms.

He also says that it will be like the time of Noah/Lot. This conveys the idea that they didn't know what was about to happen. The cataclysm stage IS shown in the most detail in Revelation. 

Some will say it is over a period of 3.5 or 7 yrs. Rev. 11 shows the two witnesses prophesy for 1260 days and are killed. Before they are on their feet again the whole world is looking at their dead bodies for 3.5 days.

That selection seems to have not been experiencing cataclysms. However it is after 1260 days of the witnesses. And it is noted that the beast continues for 42 months, and is captured alive at the time of Jesus' return to fight the armies in Rev. 19.  That beast, who makes war with the witnesses and kills them, appears to already be in power at that time as well. 

This is why I believe that the witnesses and the beast are acting fin time periods that overlap.

I take the occupation of Jerusalem (and of course Israel) will be the beginning of the two witnesses followed shortly by the imposition of the rule of the beast. So the days of the witnesses will end and the beast will last a bit longer until his time is up and the cataclysm will likely IMO start immediately after the witness are taken up.

JOhn shows us five (5) 3 1/2 year countdowns, each one counting down from the midpoint to the end of the week.

1: the 42 months of trampling
2: the 1260 days of testifying
(I believe these two will begin on the same day)
3. 1260 days of fleeing
4. Time, times, and half of time of protection
5. 42 months of authority.

Note that the 42 months begins last, so as John shows us, will end last. I believe the first 4 countdowns will end at or very near the 7th vial that ends the week. The 42 months of authority will end when Jesus captures the Beast and False Prophet as shown in chapter 19.

Many people imagine that the Two Witnesses testify in the first half. They are mistaken. 

In 11:1-2, the man of sin moves to Jerusalem. (He has to BE in Jerusalem to enter the temple in Jerusalem.) He comes with Gentile armies who will trample the city. I cannot prove this with scripture, but neither can anyone prove against it.

In 11:3 the Two Witnesses suddenly show up. They arrive then because the man of sin just arrived.

11:4 through 11:13 is in parenthesis so outside John's chronology. Most people miss this point.

11:1 is only days before the abomination.
11:15 is at the division point of the week. The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven marking the moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.
12:6 is only seconds later: those in Judea begin to flee.

[iamlamad]

On 12/14/2022 at 4:32 AM, Diaste said:

So..."For then...." That's a idea that GT has a beginning, a cause or follows an event. This can be read, "Next." The Greek says, "Gar tote..."

"gar: for, indeed (a conjunc. used to express cause, explanation, inference or continuation)"

"tote: then, at that time"

The GT is a continuation at that time. It's not an open ended general condition of the plight of mankind in this context within the prophecy of Matt 24. 

It's not a GT which follows an immediate flight, the lament of nursing mothers and children nor the winter or sabbath flight; those are a result of the A of D and a flight from the A of D and the coming GT.

Jesus literally says "GT follows the A of D which Daniel the prophet speaks about.

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

So how do you explain "For at that time..." At what time? The Fall? The death of Abel? The Flood? The Tower of Babel? The Exodus? We could say GT began at any number of time/space moments should we choose.

Jesus says it's after the A of D. Only one has occurred and that was in 167 BC. 

Again...so close. It's clear in scripture we do not avoid GT but we do avoid the wrath of God. The issue as I see it the definitions. Really, you are almost there.

Sure. The history of the doctrine is born of arrogance and desire however. The Jezebel Spirit in the church is very real and it's in this particular doctrine in my opinion.

It is what it is. I didn't say the bottom line was incorrect, it's the timing that's jumbled and incoherent. 

I have spent many decades looking into this and there is little accuracy concerning timing in any of the several pretrib ideas or the other rapture doctrines save one:

15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c

 and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and

they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The only possible timing and order that's valid no matter what anyone says. This is what Jesus told us will happen and when, and it all begins with the A of D.

Without the A of D there is no GT.

Hence, every doctrine is wrong unless it aligns with Matt 24:15-31. 

Poppycock is fitting. 

What is the meaning of GT? It is great pressure put upon people to do what their conscience tells them is wrong: Example: Neduchadnezzar forcing people to bow to an image.

What will cause "those days" of "GT" that Jesus spoke of? John tells us in Revelation 13; An image will be created and the two Beasts will force people to bow or lose their heads. (History repeating itself.)

Next, a mark will be created, and people will be forced to accept the mark or lose their heads.

Another thing making the pressure worse: water to drink is going to be impossible to find - the only water fit to drink will be in stores. But without the mark, no one can buy water. Thirst can be a very powerful thing. It means more pressure to take the mark.

When will this begin?  I believe John tells us. In Revelation 14 God warns people not to accept the mark, so those days cannot begin before then. So I believe the GT that Jesus spoke of will begin late in Revelation 14. This is confirmed in chapter 15, when the martyrs (beheaded) begin to show up in heaven.

[iamlamad]

On 12/13/2022 at 10:41 PM, not an echo said:

...

For the purpose of further clarifying my own conclusions on the timing of the rapture, according to what has come to be some popular understandings, I could agree with your statement less the "and the gathering" part.  Based upon all we find in Scripture, it will be at the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) that the gathering will occur (Matt. 24:31).  Understanding this involves differentiating between Christ's Sign Appearance and His Second Advent.  If we continue to look only or mostly at Jesus' Olivet Discourse, making this distinction can be more difficult.  But, with The Revelation, it is more easily seen, as Christ's Sign Appearance happens with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:14-16), and His Second Advent does not occur until over seven later (Rev. 19:11-16).  Also important to note is that whether it be for His Sign Appearance (for the gathering) or His Second Advent (for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign), either involves His coming.  For the former, His coming will not be to stay, but for a "sign" appearance.  For the latter, His coming will be to stay, and that, for a thousand years!

The above aligns with Paul's teachings.  Consider (with my comments), first of all from II Thessalonians 2...

Since Paul received the only revelation of the rapture of the church, we should form our doctrine on the rapture, as much as possible, from Paul, and fill in missing pieces from other end time passages. Can you agree so far?

I am convinced that in his first letter to the Thessalonians, Paul shows us that the rapture will come just before wrath. Pre-wrathers seem to agree with this.

Then, if we look to Revelation, we see that God's wrath begins at the opening of the 6th seal. Many people try to move the 6th seal, but it is fixed between the 5th and 7th and cannot be moved. It will forever be opened before the 7th seal that begins the 70th week of Daniel.

This is why millions of people are pretrib -  6 always comes before 7 in counting.

As confirmation, John then saw the raptured church in heaven as the great crowd, too large to number.

 

I am out of time.

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

JOhn shows us five (5) 3 1/2 year countdowns, each one counting down from the midpoint to the end of the week.

1: the 42 months of trampling
2: the 1260 days of testifying
(I believe these two will begin on the same day)
3. 1260 days of fleeing
4. Time, times, and half of time of protection
5. 42 months of authority.

Note that the 42 months begins last, so as John shows us, will end last. I believe the first 4 countdowns will end at or very near the 7th vial that ends the week. The 42 months of authority will end when Jesus captures the Beast and False Prophet as shown in chapter 19.

Many people imagine that the Two Witnesses testify in the first half. They are mistaken. 

In 11:1-2, the man of sin moves to Jerusalem. (He has to BE in Jerusalem to enter the temple in Jerusalem.) He comes with Gentile armies who will trample the city. I cannot prove this with scripture, but neither can anyone prove against it.

In 11:3 the Two Witnesses suddenly show up. They arrive then because the man of sin just arrived.

11:4 through 11:13 is in parenthesis so outside John's chronology. Most people miss this point.

11:1 is only days before the abomination.
11:15 is at the division point of the week. The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven marking the moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.
12:6 is only seconds later: those in Judea begin to flee.

Thank you for sharing that.

[not an echo]

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

On 12/14/2022 at 9:31 PM, not an echo said:

...

Something that I did not notice until after years of study, and something no scholar, author, or anyone in the web world that I am aware of has yet picked up on, is that at verse 29, Jesus turns His attention to the event of His Sign Appearance (vs. 30), and it is related to this that He speaks for the remainder of the chapter.  Since my realizing of this, I have not been able to un-realize it.  Of course, also important to note is that the prophetic puzzle pieces for verses 29-31 interlock with the prophetic puzzle pieces of John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17).

(Emphasis added.)

Note the bolded words. 

Sorry, friend, but there is no "interlocking" between the signs in Matthew 24, and the signs at the 6th seal.

Hello iamlamad,

The truth of what I have put forth is solidly reinforced in Scripture.  Consider, for example, the part of Luke's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse that parallels what we find in Matthew 24:29-31.  In Luke 21 we read...

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke's account reads like a paraphrase of what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Consider Luke's account above, with John's account of the opening of the 6th Seal, from Revelation 6...

12 And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

When we combine Matthew, Mark, and Luke's accounts of Jesus' words concerning this event, we find the following parallels---in sequence---with John's account of the 6th Seal.  Consider...

#1

Of the sun being darkened---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:24;  Lk. 21:25

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:12

 

#2

Of the moon not giving "her" light---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:24;  Lk. 21:25

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:12

 

#3

Of the stars falling from heaven---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:25;  Lk. 21:25

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:13

 

#4

Of the powers of the heavens being shaken---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:25;  Lk. 21:26

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:14a

 

#5

Of the sea and the waves roaring---Lk. 21:25b

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:14b

 

#6

Of those left and their hearts failing them for fear---Lk. 21:26

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:15-17

 

#7

Of the appearance of THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven---Matt. 24:30/equals Mk. 13:26 and Lk. 21:27

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:16-17

 

#8

Of those left seeing or glimpsing the Son---Mk. 13:26;  Lk. 21:27

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:15-17

 

#9

Of "all the tribes" seeing or glimpsing the Son---Matt. 24:30

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal interlude---Rev. 7:1-8

 

#10

Of the angel's gathering together of the Elect, or the Church---Matt. 24:31;  Mk. 13:27

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal interlude---Rev. 7:9-17

The interlocking of these prophetic puzzle pieces form just a portion of the picture we find in Scripture relating to the timing of the rapture relative to other events.  I show a bird's-eye view of the whole picture in the opening post of my master thread, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  I show more of a bug's-eye view of it in the various threads I have started that relate to it---like the present one.  I keep a running list of my other related threads in the second post of my master thread.

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The 6th seal is before the tribulation and the signs in Matthew 24 are after the tribulation.

Using your statement, I would clarify my position by what I have added in parenthesis:  "The 6th seal is before the tribulation (of Daniel's 70th Week) and the signs in Matthew 24 (:29-30) are after the tribulation (of the New Testament era)."  To clarify further, the tribulation "of the New Testament era" of which I speak is the tribulation resulting from the activity of the four horsemen of the first four seals, which parallels what Jesus warned of in the opening section of His discourse.  Following are links to threads I have relating to them...

The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/)

The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/)

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/)

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/)

Also, I have a thread that focuses more specifically on the "tribulation" Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:29.  I've titled it, The Tribulation of Matthew 24:29 and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/279060-the-tribulation-of-matthew-2429-and-daniels-70th-week/).

The prophetic puzzle of the last days is quite large, and I know that it may be difficult for you to see everything as I am seeing it, especially when we are looking at just a portion of it at any given time.  My prayer and goal over the years has been to come to an understanding that will align with everything God has seen fit to reveal to us in Scripture.  Whether correct, wholly or in part, I do submit that the understandings I have come to indeed align with Scripture.  Being first of all mindful of Proverbs 3:5-6, if you continue to consider what I have found in my journey, I hope this will be of some help to you in your own journey.  I will practice the same thing relating to what you have put forth.

Edited December 16, 2022 by not an echo
spacing correction

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What is the meaning of GT? It is great pressure put upon people to do what their conscience tells them is wrong: Example: Neduchadnezzar forcing people to bow to an image.

Nope. The pressure is applied to bring the people called by His name back to Him. 

The GT is about fixing the mess the congregation is in, a search of the heart and mind of all mankind, the time of testing whether the works of mankind are gold and silver or works consumed by the fire, to see who will accept Christ or accept Satan.

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What will cause "those days" of "GT" that Jesus spoke of? John tells us in Revelation 13; An image will be created and the two Beasts will force people to bow or lose their heads. (History repeating itself.)

Next, a mark will be created, and people will be forced to accept the mark or lose their heads.

Another thing making the pressure worse: water to drink is going to be impossible to find - the only water fit to drink will be in stores. But without the mark, no one can buy water. Thirst can be a very powerful thing. It means more pressure to take the mark.

When will this begin?  I believe John tells us. In Revelation 14 God warns people not to accept the mark, so those days cannot begin before then. So I believe the GT that Jesus spoke of will begin late in Revelation 14. This is confirmed in chapter 15, when the martyrs (beheaded) begin to show up in heaven.

Well, whenever it begins in the real world I'm pretty sure we'll know without a doubt. 

 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

The truth of what I have put forth is solidly reinforced in Scripture.  Consider, for example, the part of Luke's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse that parallels what we find in Matthew 24:29-31.  In Luke 21 we read...

The prophetic puzzle of the last days is quite large, and I know that it may be difficult for you to see everything as I am seeing it, especially when we are looking at just a portion of it at any given time.  My prayer and goal over the years has been to come to an understanding that will align with everything God has seen fit to reveal to us in Scripture.  Whether correct, wholly or in part, I do submit that the understandings I have come to indeed align with Scripture.  Being first of all mindful of Proverbs 3:5-6, if you continue to consider what I have found in my journey, I hope this will be of some help to you in your own journey.  I will practice the same thing relating to what you have put forth.

You think your theory is the right one. So does every other writer here. 

The first problem with your theory is TIME. When will the signs in the sun, moon and stars take place in the Matthew 24 account? "After the tribulation of those days."

Where is that in the Revelation timeline? Any time after the 7th vial that ends the week - so chapters 17, 18, or 19 - probably chapter 19.

Where is the 6th seal in Revelation? Before any part of the 70th week. What you suggest is impossible, trying to warp time so two events over seven years apart meet in time. It is simply impossible.

 Sorry, no time. This is only the first reason.