The souls under the altar (Rev. 6:9-11); are they killed before or during the tribulation period?

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Hi Light

Yes that is also correct and harmonises nicely with other scriptures.

I have included the next verse which is revealing something very important;

Daniel 12:11   And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

  Daniel 12:12   Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

Wait another 45 days, and there is your rapture.

Why? 

The two witnesses have just been killed. That is the 2nd Woe.  The third woe is coming quickly.  The 3rd Woe is coming in 45 days.  Woe to the nations, but blessed is he who takes part in the Resurrection (rapture)

Something big is happening during those 45 days.

The world is rejoicing over the death of the two witnesses.  After 3.5 days they are brought again to life. 

  Revelation 11:13   And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
 

The end is not yet, but soon.  God is going to send in the Mede's to attack the gates of Babylon. Their headquarters, their infrastructure, their communications, power, everything, even the nations they rule over.  False prophet is losing power.  His kingdom is suddenly weakened.  Nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, brother against brother.  The 3rd world war begins.  All this is leading up to Armageddon, the war against the Lamb.  All in 45 days.  And blessed is he that comes to the 1335 days, because there is only 1 resurrection and gathering unto Christ.  This is the day we are waiting for.

 

  Jeremiah 51:11   Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.

  Jeremiah 51:12   Set up the standard upon the walls of Babylon, make the watch strong, set up the watchmen, prepare the ambushes: for the LORD hath both devised and done that which he spake against the inhabitants of Babylon.

  Jeremiah 51:13   O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness.

Well done with the Medes. Most people think this prophecy has already been fulfilled.

I don't agree with the timing of this rapture however. It will happen at the 6th seal before the seventh seal is opened and the trumpets of wrath begin. I think the timing of the two witnesses do not begin at the same time as the AOD.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Maybe you are right.  Maybe Christ has not touched down yet on to the Mt of Olives.  Maybe they are hiding in the rocks and the caves because of that earthquake when the 2 witnesses rise.  This would shock the world because they have been rejoicing then suddenly....they realise that these men were of God and go into panic and great fear.  Don't forget this is still the 6th seal we are discussing.

Don't hear those words much around here Sister. 

The rapture at the 6th seal will occur and then the wrath of God will begin. Those two witnesses are killed during the wrath of God.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Yes you are right. 

There it is again. I'm getting light headed.

1 hour ago, Sister said:

 

This is not when Jesus sets his feet on the Mount of Olives.

But....the plagues come as soon as the Mark of the Beast is issued.

Revelation 16:2   And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

I don't believe this is correct Sister. The mark of the beast will happen sometime in the midst of the week. What you are quoting occurs during the wrath of God. The day of the Lord is 1000 years long. The day of His wrath is one year long. 

1 hour ago, Sister said:

The 6th seal shows the end part of the tribulation, not the beginning.  All the plagues are obviously coming to an end, not about to start.

The 6th seal is the end of the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins with the opening of the 7th seal.

1 hour ago, Sister said:

As  I stated before, when the 7th seal is opened, it is only 'revealing' what happened in the 6th seal.  It's telling the story on how it led up to that part with men hiding in the caves.  Those seals are only opening up our understanding of what's to come.  It's the giving of information and understanding.

I know alot of people think that Sister, but it is incorrect. The 1st 4 seals, the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, are the "beginning of sorrows" in Matthew 24. The 5th seal is the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 and the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. When Jesus comes in Matthew 24 the tribulation is over.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This event, the coming of Jesus happens at the 6th seal. Then the seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. That the trumpets of wrath. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet.

[WilliamL]

On 12/6/2022 at 3:58 PM, AdHoc said:

If your body is "destroyed" you are Naked. How then do you appear before God in heaven naked?

Already explained that to you, with scripture, on Tuesday at 1:59. Since you blew off what I posted, not even bothering to respond to it, this discussion is over on my part. Waste of my time. I will discuss and debate, but will not respond to demands.

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Already explained that to you, with scripture, on Tuesday at 1:59. Since you blew off what I posted, not even bothering to respond to it, this discussion is over on my part. Waste of my time. I will discuss and debate, but will not respond to demands.

Okay. I'm sorry if it came across as a "demand".

God bless.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 12/6/2022 at 4:58 PM, AdHoc said:

And you still have not explained how David (i) is dead still, (ii) his tomb is still there, (iiI) he is still in Hades, and (iv) has NOT ascended.

I think it's got something to do with, time.

 

You will not leave my soul in Sheol (the abode of the dead)
neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.
Psalm 16:10

As for me, I will behold Thy face in righteousness,
I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Thy likeness.
Psalm 17:15

For we know that if the earthly house [physical body] of our tabernacle [soul] is destroyed, we have a building [a body] from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this* [soul-tabernacle] we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven...  8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:1

So also is the resurrection of the dead...
it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:42-49

[And we know from Revelation 19 that the raised body we get is actual,
I don't think Paul means an ethereal body, but some sort of spirit based body.
Our natural body contains a spirit, I think spiritual bodies are the opposite,
with the matter being more contained/controlled by the spirit]

For I know that my redeemer lives,
and He shall stand at the last day upon the land,
and even if worms destroy this body and I die,
yet in my flesh shall I see God.
Job 19:26

Israel's dead men shall rise,
together with my dead body shall they arise.
Isaiah 26:19

Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:

And now I stand and am judged for the hope of
the promise made of God unto our fathers. ...

Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you,
that God should raise the dead?

Acts 26:6-8 

Ezekiel 37:12-13
"I will open up your graves, and bring you up out of your graves,
and bring you into the land of Israel"
"And you shall know that I am the Lord when I bring you up
out of your graves"

[And there is no other such promise of resurrection in scripture,
clearly Ezekiel 37:12-13 is what Paul was referring to]

 

 

From our perspective now there is a resurrection to come,
perhaps when we die, saints immediately wake up to that time,
we wake up on a horse; Rev 19:14 [Ez 37:9-10, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Jude 1:14-15]
high up in the sky as part of an army of resurrected saints.

And so, what we would initially see of our Lord, is His backside.
[Exodus 33:23, Joel 2:11, Rev 19:14]

As we wake up from death to immediately coming down with Him
to reign.

For the righteous will rejoice when they see the vengeance,
they shall wash their feet in the blood of the wicked.
Psalm 58:10

The wicked shall be ashes under your feet in the day
that I do this says the Lord. Malachi 4:3
 

 

[kenny2212]

Tribulation ends when God steps in. Even if God steps in with wrath.

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

I think it's got something to do with, time.

I think you are very close now. Did you notice that in all of your scriptures, the one thing that was not clearly defined is "which TIME" these events must happen. We have TWO scriptures that give a TIME for resurrection. The first is 1st Corinthians 15:23. There is says that we are resurrected "when He comes".

This does not set a date, but it tells us something important. The gap between Christ's resurrection and ours is the length of the gospel age. And FIVE times concerning us, it says in this same Chapter, the dead "RISE". So also the Resurrection of Jesus. He "ROSE". In Acts 2 David is still in Hades because he "has not ascended to heaven (v.34)". That is, a man, even the most eligible men like David, have yet to RISE in resurrection. David has to wait for the "Shout of Lord and the archangel and the last Trumpet" - like you and I.

If you now go back to all the scriptures you posted, you will see that they are no in any way violated by what I wrote above. Even 2nd Corinthians 5 makes space for this TIME - for there must be a TIME that we groan "being unclothed" (v.2).

2 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Tribulation ends when God steps in. Even if God steps in with wrath.

Hi Kenny, I found this text. It looks ominous;

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Please excuse the double answer. I don't know why it happened, but I could not extricate myself from this IT mystery.

[kenny2212]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think you are very close now. Did you notice that in all of your scriptures, the one thing that was not clearly defined is "which TIME" these events must happen. We have TWO scriptures that give a TIME for resurrection. The first is 1st Corinthians 15:23. There is says that we are resurrected "when He comes".

This does not set a date, but it tells us something important. The gap between Christ's resurrection and ours is the length of the gospel age. And FIVE times concerning us, it says in this same Chapter, the dead "RISE". So also the Resurrection of Jesus. He "ROSE". In Acts 2 David is still in Hades because he "has not ascended to heaven (v.34)". That is, a man, even the most eligible men like David, have yet to RISE in resurrection. David has to wait for the "Shout of Lord and the archangel and the last Trumpet" - like you and I.

If you now go back to all the scriptures you posted, you will see that they are no in any way violated by what I wrote above. Even 2nd Corinthians 5 makes space for this TIME - for there must be a TIME that we groan "being unclothed" (v.2).

Hi Kenny, I found this text. It looks ominous;

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Please excuse the double answer. I don't know why it happened, but I could not extricate myself from this IT mystery.

I think the "final 7 years" (for lack of a better phrase) should be called something other than the "tribulation". Tribulation? For whom? Believers won't be here by that time. May be it should be called the "time of Jacob's trouble". I don't think those who convert during the "final 7 years" could be called "tribulation saints" because their eternal destiny hinges solely and very majorly on a "non-salvation event" - refusing the mark of the beast.

Rev. 14: 9 - 11 (NKJV) - 

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by kenny2212

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

I think the "final 7 years" (for lack of a better phrase) should be called something other than the "tribulation". Tribulation? For whom? Believers won't be here by that time. May be it should be called the "time of Jacob's trouble". I don't think those who convert during the "final 7 years" could be called "tribulation saints" because their eternal destiny hinges solely and very majorly on a "non-salvation event" - refusing the mark of the beast.

Rev. 14: 9 - 11 (NKJV) - 

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

 

 

 

 

 

It’s a mysterious matter. The Tribulation (I take it to be the last 3.5 years) indicates that the age of grace is over. The saints left on earth are conquered by the Beast (Rev.13:7). Who is left to preach Christ? And yet Revelation 20:4-6 is clear. Some do resist the Beast, and you can‘t be a king in Christ‘s Kingdom unless you are born again and baptised (Jn.3:3-6). I haven’t settled this matter in my mind yet.