The souls under the altar (Rev. 6:9-11); are they killed before or during the tribulation period?

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

The souls under the throne are tribulation martyrs who die under the persecution of the AntiChrist. It is during the tribulation after the Rapture. The book of Revelation is yet future but not all is it is in Chronological order.  The rapture either occurs in chapter 3 or 4. The tribulation is chapters 6-19. The Millennium is in 20 and the Eternal State ( New Heavens and New Earth) is 21 & 22.

[The Light]

19 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

The rapture either occurs in chapter 3 or 4. The tribulation is chapters 6-19.

Revelation 4 Rapture of the Church
Rev 5 Church in heaven
Rev 6 The tribulation with Jesus returning at the 6th seal for the 2nd rapture.
Rev 7 The sealing of the 144,000 (occurs in 1st four seals) The great multitude.
Rev 8,9,10, 11. The wrath of God
Rev 12 Former times thru dragon going after seed of the woman, the 12 tribes.
Rev 13, 14 Another view of the tribulation, occurs in the seals, Jesus returns 6th seal.
Rev 15, 16 Another view of the wrath of God

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Revelation 4 Rapture of the Church
Rev 5 Church in heaven
Rev 6 The tribulation with Jesus returning at the 6th seal for the 2nd rapture.
Rev 7 The sealing of the 144,000 (occurs in 1st four seals) The great multitude.
Rev 8,9,10, 11. The wrath of God
Rev 12 Former times thru dragon going after seed of the woman, the 12 tribes.
Rev 13, 14 Another view of the tribulation, occurs in the seals, Jesus returns 6th seal.
Rev 15, 16 Another view of the wrath of God

Can you please explain why you believe chapter 6 refers to a second rapture? I see no evidence of 2 raptures in scripture. I'm also confused about what you mean by the terms " another view ".

[The Light]

7 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Can you please explain why you believe chapter 6 refers to a second rapture?

Jesus comes in Matthew 24 immediately AFTER the tribulation, BEFORE the wrath of God. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This coming occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

7 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I see no evidence of 2 raptures in scripture.

The fig has two harvests. 
There is an early summer grain harvest and a fall fruit harvest. 
Pentecost is a harvest feast. The Feast of Trumpets is a harvest feast.
Jacob had two brides, Leah and the chosen bride Rachel, who he worked 7 more years for.
One coming will be like the days of Noah and one coming like the days of Lot.
One coming at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.
One coming the Lord Himself comes. One coming He sends His angels.
One coming the dead in Christ rise first and then the alive are caught up. One coming the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.
There are two silver trumpets used to call the assembly.

Plenty of evidence there are two raptures in scripture.

 

7 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

 

I'm also confused about what you mean by the terms " another view ".

Revelation reads like Genesis 7. There are three different descriptions of Noah loading the animals and the flood coming in Genesis 7. Each description gives you different information or another view. And yet there is but one time Noah loaded the animals and there was one flood.

The same happens in Revelation. You get the tribulation in Revelation 6 and then you get the wrath of God in Revelation 7-11. The wrath of God is OVER in Revelation 11 when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Armageddon has happened and the time of the judgement. Then in Revelation 13 and 14 you get additional information of events of Revelation 6, the tribulation, and the coming of Jesus. In Revelation 15-16 the vials are just additional information of what occurs in the wrath of God.

Edited December 18, 2022 by The Light

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

14 hours ago, The Light said:

Jesus comes in Matthew 24 immediately AFTER the tribulation, BEFORE the wrath of God. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This coming occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

The fig has two harvests. 
There is an early summer grain harvest and a fall fruit harvest. 
Pentecost is a harvest feast. The Feast of Trumpets is a harvest feast.
Jacob had two brides, Leah and the chosen bride Rachel, who he worked 7 more years for.
One coming will be like the days of Noah and one coming like the days of Lot.
One coming at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.
One coming the Lord Himself comes. One coming He sends His angels.
One coming the dead in Christ rise first and then the alive are caught up. One coming the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.
There are two silver trumpets used to call the assembly.

Plenty of evidence there are two raptures in scripture.

 

Revelation reads like Genesis 7. There are three different descriptions of Noah loading the animals and the flood coming in Genesis 7. Each description gives you different information or another view. And yet there is but one time Noah loaded the animals and there was one flood.

The same happens in Revelation. You get the tribulation in Revelation 6 and then you get the wrath of God in Revelation 7-11. The wrath of God is OVER in Revelation 11 when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Armageddon has happened and the time of the judgement. Then in Revelation 13 and 14 you get additional information of events of Revelation 6, the tribulation, and the coming of Jesus. In Revelation 15-16 the vials are just additional information of what occurs in the wrath of God.

Your explanation is very well thought out. I appreciate you taking the time to write it. I honestly can't really find fault with anything you said. My only disagreement ( possible error but not totally sure ) is with 2 things. # 1, I don't believe Revelation is in Chronological order. I could explain further but I think you understand my point. # 2, I think what you claim as 2 raptures is THE actual rapture before the tribulation and then the actual 2nd coming 7 years later. They are definitely different events, but I don't think it's a 2nd rapture. Of course, I could be wrong, and I think you presented your side well. Thanks.

[The Light]

38 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Your explanation is very well thought out. I appreciate you taking the time to write it. I honestly can't really find fault with anything you said. My only disagreement ( possible error but not totally sure ) is with 2 things. # 1, I don't believe Revelation is in Chronological order.

Thank you TrueFollowerOfChrist. I don't think Revelation is in Chronological order either. Revelation 1 thru 11 is basically in Chronological order. Then you get a repeat in Revelation 13 thru 16.

38 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

# 2, I think what you claim as 2 raptures is THE actual rapture before the tribulation and then the actual 2nd coming 7 years later. They are definitely different events, but I don't think it's a 2nd rapture. Of course, I could be wrong, and I think you presented your side well. Thanks.

There is a second rapture as the 144,000 acceptable 1st fruits are proof of a second harvest of the 12 tribes. 

Here is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Here we see who is raptured and they are singing the song of Moses as they are of the 12 tribes.

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

[AdHoc]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:07 AM, Revelation Man said:

Lets do it this, what does the bible say, that is the most important concept, not what we think, or even others think. I see nowhere in the bible where this concept of people going straight tom heaven exists, outside a few people taking Paul's words of to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. That is taken out of context, Paul is trying to teach his new converts, or older converts with people who have already died, that their loved ones have not been  forsaken, they will be with the Lord. So, he's pushing these facts that to be absent from the body means we are all going to be with the Lord, he doesn't know when the Rapture is going to take place, it could be anytime after the Gospel has been spread the world over. So, he is trying to assure them their loved ones will [eventually] be with the Lord.

As in HEY, if you die, you are going to be with the Lord, he is not saying right away, because he knows that is not factual, but people have. But people have indeed wrongly interpreted it that way. In Isaiah we are told Line upon line,  precept upon precept for a reason. That is how I do everything, when we do that, this whole concept of going straight tom heaven falls to pieces. Then we see how both Daniel and Paul says WE SLEEP until the end. Two great men of God !!

Dan. 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up(Rev. 12 or END TIMES), the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So, Daniel says when Michael STANDS UP those who SLEEP will AWAKE !! Hmmm, is Daniel fibbing unto us here? I do nit think so because Gabriel is telling all of this unto Daniel !! And Jesus (Man in Linen) is there with him !! So, when does Daniel stand up? At the very end times to save Israel from the coming Anti-Christ and Red Dragon, as Rev. 12 tells us.  Now lets see what Paul says.

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible(with no Sin Flesh), and we shall be changed (Those alive will FORSAKE their Sin Flesh and go to be with the Lord as Spirit Men, the same was as those who AWAKE from sleep/Death go to be with the Lord as Spirit Men. We can see this in verse 44).

 

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So, why are the dead raised INCORRUPTIBLE ? Because they have no Sin Flesh, it has rotted away, they are raises as a Spirit Man in Christ Jesus. REMEMBER, Paul said our spirit is willing but our FLESH IS WEAK !! So, when the Last Trump is blown (which ends the Church Age Harvest of Souls) we who are alive simply must LOSE OUR SIN FLESH meaning we leave it behind and go to Heaven as a Bride of Christ, via nothing but our spirit man, thus we need White Robes (New Glorified Bodies ) when we get to Heaven. 

So, both Gabriel, who is teaching Daniel the Prophet, and Paul says our souls sleep until the End Times or Last Trump. So, where does this idea come from that we go straight to heaven? Weigh it in the scales brother. The facts are the facts. I can teach it and prove it, but I can't make a horse drink the water. 

 

 

 

I just about agreed with your posting until the last two paragraphs. I propose that "sleep" refers to the BODY, not the soul.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Thank you TrueFollowerOfChrist. I don't think Revelation is in Chronological order either. Revelation 1 thru 11 is basically in Chronological order. Then you get a repeat in Revelation 13 thru 16.

There is a second rapture as the 144,000 acceptable 1st fruits are proof of a second harvest of the 12 tribes. 

Here is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Here we see who is raptured and they are singing the song of Moses as they are of the 12 tribes.

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

I completely understand where your coming from on what you said. I'm just not sure I can see the 144,000 as another rapture. I've always believed ( and many rapture pastors agree with it ) that the 144,000 are simply Jews who turn to faith in Christ during the tribulation and evangelize the whole world with Supernatural power from God. I don't see anything in the text that actually shows a rapture. 

[Revelation Man]

On 12/19/2022 at 3:56 PM, AdHoc said:

I just about agreed with your posting until the last two paragraphs. I propose that "sleep" refers to the BODY, not the soul.

The Body is never being raised. Its SIN FLESH, it can not go to heaven, that is why the Dead who sleep are raised INCORRUPTIBLE, that simply means we are raised as Spirit men(verse 44).

That is why those alive must BE CHANGED.......Flesh and blood can not enter Heaven. It tells us the Dead are raised without corruption, the problem is you do not grasp that that corruption is our sin flesh. When Mary saw Jesus after he was raised in John 20, he told her TOUCH ME NOT, for I have not yet ascended unto the Father [to offer myself as a Sacrifice].

Mary merely touching Jesus would have defiled the Sacrifice, When the 70 opened the Ark of the Covenant they all died. God can not come into the presence of Sin, He has the abundance of the glory, the Holy Spirit can live in our Hearts, God living fully in our Hearts would disintegrate us via his full glory. God the Father has the abundance of the Gory, but God the Father, The Son/Redeemer, and Holy Spirit are all exactly alike in Spirit or in essence, they are Love, Hope, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Honesty, etc. etc. But only the Father has the Abundance of the Glory. Our bodies are not going to heaven, we will get new bodies, Satan and his demons have no bodies, yet they travel around, we do not need bodies in order to go to Heaven to get our new Glorious bodies.

Nowhere does it say our bodies are resurrected, verse 44 tells us the Spirit Man is resurrected. WITHOUT the Corruptible flesh bodies, and we who are alive are CHANGED, meaning we leave our bodies on earth, and thus go as Spirit men to be with Jesus in heaven. No Flesh and Blood can enter Heaven, add it all up brother. No one (save Moses, Elijah see the Transfiguration) goes to heaven until the Rapture/End Times. 

God Bless

Edited December 21, 2022 by Revelation Man

[Alive]

How about flesh and bone?