Three Wise Men And A Star

[Neighbor]

For added fun; while the wise, or the Magi, may have arrived some 2+ years later on the scene, who was there almost immediately?

And what was their general social standing  (caste) amongst the many people and the wise?

Reference:

Luke 2:8–20

" And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified.  But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people.  Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 

Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.” 

When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.” 

So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child,  and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them.  But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.d  The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising Gode for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told."

 

[Starise]

Thanks for the input from you all.

A few thoughts.

-Daniel being a magi and a leader of them indicates the direction was not pagan.

-I had never heard of an angel revealing these things to Daniel. Apparently there are some unwritten facts on the subject, at least not written in the bible. Granted the book of Daniel  correlated, but without all the pieces to the puzzle making a determination as to the birth of Christ could have been difficult. In reading the article @Jayne I can see that-

- This is a real rabbit hole

-Getting the start time right is important. Many see Israel beoming a nation as important. It is, yet according to what I read, the temple being built might be more significant as to future prophecy.

- It would be very easy to smudge gnostic thought into Christian thought if we didn't know better. Mainly because we see a mixed bunch of men in the magi.

- Antideluvian fallen angels probably shared astrology to humans as well, so we may well have two streams of thought on astrology as opposed to astronomy. One of those has evil intent. The other doesn't.

-We may benefit from a good basis for these ideas in understanding current prophecy.

-Along the lines of this blending of magi other ideas arise as to the similarity to Christian stories and pagan stories similar. God revealed> Daniel and similar godly men recived this information>said information was passed on to  those of other religions> similar stories developed or maybe the stories were skewed over time in those other religions.

-Looking at the stars as guides to events based on time is not an ungodly pursuit if done correctly.

 

[missmuffet]

The Bible doesn't say that there were only three wise men. There could have been more.

The wise men did not visit Jesus at the manger. They came months or even a year after Jesus was born.

The star of Bethlehem was referred to as "his star" since it was a sign to the Magi that Jesus the King was born.

The Star of Bethlehem was not an ordinary star. Perhaps it was an angel or it could have been a manifestation of Shekinah Glory. It means "dwelling of God". Prior to this the most notable appearance of the Shekinah was the pillar of cloud that led the Israelites by day and by night. 

[ladypeartree]

I remember there was a lot of speculation at one time about a comet ( often called shooting stars ) that would have appeared about that time and comes around every thousand ( ???) years or so 

[farouk]

2 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The Bible doesn't say that there were only three wise men. There could have been more.

The wise men did not visit Jesus at the manger. They came months or even a year after Jesus was born.

The star of Bethlehem was referred to as "his star" since it was a sign to the Magi that Jesus the King was born.

The Star of Bethlehem was not an ordinary star. Perhaps it was an angel or it could have been a manifestation of Shekinah Glory. It means "dwelling of God". Prior to this the most notable appearance of the Shekinah was the pillar of cloud that led the Israelites by day and by night. 

You are right, @missmuffet; Scripture does not actually say there were three of them................

[farouk]

5 hours ago, Neighbor said:

For added fun; while the wise, or the Magi, may have arrived some 2+ years later on the scene, who was there almost immediately?

And what was their general social standing  (caste) amongst the many people and the wise?

Reference:

Luke 2:8–20

" And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified.  But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people.  Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 

Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.” 

When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.” 

So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child,  and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them.  But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.d  The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising Gode for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told."

 

@Neighbor Re. the wise men, Matthew 2 says it was the young child that they visited.

[Dennis1209]

What an appropriate time to bring up that question. 😊

These “wise men” were Magi, Oriental astrologers, and scholars who studied the stars and apparently sought to understand the times. They were Gentiles whom God had specially called to come and pay homage to the newborn King. These “three kings” are speculation, as the number is not given. I am not telling you something you do not already know.

As you know, the word for the star is aster, where we derive the word asteroid. Many people practiced astrology back then, eyes glued to the heavens. Most of the time, the Bible condemns this practice.

It would seem that if this were a literal asteroid visible to the naked eye, everyone would have seen it, and it would have been widely documented in history. That does not appear to be the case.

I take the Biblical account that few even noticed the “star.” These Magi were gentiles from the east; could it be this also was a sign that Salvation was coming to the Gentiles?

To my recollection, I have never heard a theory of why these Magi were looking for a sign and decided to follow it.

If anyone can enlighten us with an answer, it would be appreciated.

Merry Christ-mas to everyone. Not x-mas or happy holidays.

[farouk]

@Jayne Interesting about the wise men reportedly coming from the place of Daniel in exile...

[Dennis1209]

On 12/19/2022 at 8:34 AM, Starise said:

Many here have probably read the Christmas story many times over the years and while some of the details, such as when the wise men actually arrived with the gifts they bore, how old Jesus was when it happened and other such details, one point stands out. They looked for and followed a star.

While they were called wise men in English translations a more accurate term would be Magi. It has been said this is where we get the term Magician from. Very real attempts have been made to tie these men to more esoteric Babylonian gnostic traditions. In reality they were both scripturally wise men and men of the sciences. They knew a thing or two about astronomy. They were apparently highly respected men since they had access to the palaces of kings and the king's ear. 

I am looking for information on where they recieved their intel that a star would indicate the birth of Christ. Maybe there is a passge in the OT somewhere? Somehow, not one of them but three of them were convinced a star was going to be their direction to where Christ was.

Now, we all know you can't really follow a 'star' in the way we now understand stars. My thinking on this is anything lit up in the sky at that time was called a star. Neither am I implying it was a space ship. Trying to keep things as rational as possible.

It COULD have been a star in the modern sense and they used it to triangulate a direction in the same way ancient mariners guided their ships in the open ocean. Yet, how did they know a star was going to indicate the whereabouts of Christ? How did they identify it among the other stars? Where did they get their information that A. They needed to look at a star as a guide and B. It would point them to the Messiah?

 

And this was really an afterthought. Here is a song I made awhile back about the wise . I played it on an Irish Bouzouki, but the instrument is derived from and sounds like the middle eastern version. 

 

Since it pertains to the reason for the season, I did a little more studying on the wise men.

I think these powerful, wise men came with a large Entourage from Persia, today’s Iran (a long journey on horseback). Went to Herod and asked, “where can we find the king?” What an insult; why did Herod not immediately kill them, like so many others, for insulting him? These Maji were kingmakers and had power and reinforcements, and there was politics involved.

Tradition only holds that there were three kings because of the number of gifts. They boldly entered the city to inquire of Herod. I think there is symbolism in the gifts:

·         Gold: Symbolic of wealth, power, and riches. He who owns the gold…

·         Myrrh: A crushed plant fragrance, traditionally anointing oil, used for recognition, holiness, and priestly. Exodus 30:23 Take thou also unto thee principal spices, of pure myrrh five hundred shekels, and of sweet cinnamon half so much, even two hundred and fifty shekels, and of sweet calamus two hundred and fifty shekels,

·         Frankincense: Associated with the Levitical priesthood, incense, and the Temple, a symbol of power.

Jesus was not a newborn at the time and was probably about 15 months old. These wealthy and powerful “wise men” had to have known Hebrew scripture and were looking for a sign (Numbers 24:17 and Daniel).

These men knew the season and were watching the heavens for a predicted sign according to Hebrew scripture. Could the "star" been an asteroid, a star that flared up in brightness? Who knows? That also sounds familiar with the season we live in, watch, therefore…

[Marilyn C]

Hi Starise,

You asked -

I am looking for information on where they recieved their intel that a star would indicate the birth of Christ. Maybe there is a passge in the OT somewhere? Somehow, not one of them but three of them were convinced a star was going to be their direction to where Christ was.

We know that in Micah 5: 2 it tells of the Lord coming forth from Bethlehem.

`But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to me the one to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.` (Micah 5: 2)

Thus that is the town where the ruler of Israel would be born. Then as to the star, I would say that the people (in the Old Testament and gospels) knew them well, as we note in Job. Perhaps a comet that came around every so often turned up and they followed it to Bethlehem which was confirmed in their writings. 

Just some thoughts, Marilyn.