Did God restore Israel in 1948?

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

The thing is where in any prophesy is the restoring and protecting etc of Israel talked about that regards 1948?

Shalom, dad2.

With regard to 1948, when have you EVER known a prophecy that says "THIS is the date!"?

God is the EPITOME of patience! He does things in HIS timing! This is just the first stage of the return of His people to the Land. Before that, there were communities of Jews in many locations, particularly in Russia and in the United States. But, with the coming of the Jews to the Holy Land, we have the BEGINNINGS of the restoration!

Look, things seldom happen over night. How often have you seen an acorn go into the ground on one day, and the oak tree full grown on the next?

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

Great, so the issue is when this will happen. IN no way does it point to the founding of secular Israel today.

Aw, sure it does. You've got to see these things happening in STAGES! 

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

There was not a clean heart sprinkled on them in 1948. They are not clean then or now. They did and do not loathe themselves  for their unbelief and evil. So that certainly is not history.

No, and you KNOW things don't work by magic like that, anyway! They must first be CONVINCED and CONVICTED of their sins! They have to be told the TRUTH about the Messiah! They have to realize why the Messiah comes in two stages and why He came the first time to die! They have to be taught about Resurrection! And, you also should know that God works with INDIVIDUALS before He EVER works with peoples! You really need to read about the history of the events leading up to 1948's miracle! There WERE Jews "saved" during that time! Ever since the British Empire acted upon the Balfour Declaration, the British War Cabinet began searching for a way to form a Jewish state in the Land of Israel. (And for the umpteenth time, it is NOT Palestine! That was a name that the Romans coined to embarrass the Jews who were deported into the diaspora. The name comes from "Plishtiym," the name of the PHILISTINES!)

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

They were not saved and cleaned in 1948 obviously. Not sure why you post all this. None of it at all helps you.

They are not holy or saved now. Obviously. That is future.

Here, you are just plain WRONG! See, you and many Christians have this false notion that "holiness" is the same as "righteousness!" They are NOT the same! A person or a people can be "holy" without being "righteous!" To be "holy" simply means that one is "singled out" for God's service! The children of Israel have been, and will always continue to be, God's "HOLY PEOPLE!" So, get over it!

Furthermore, don't be too hung up on righteousness, either. NO ONE is righteous when it comes to God's standards! All of our "righteousnesses" are as FILTHY RAGS in God's sight! (Those "filthy rags" are USED MENSTRUAL CLOTHS!) We are ONLY "righteous" through God's justification of an individual! When God, by His own provision and for His own purposes, DECLARES one to be "righteous" through the Sacrifice of His Son, that is the ONLY way we can be made the "righteousness of God through the Messiah!"

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

Obviously Paul and the apostles and many believers were saved as were untold multitudes since then. That has no application to all Israel getting saved in the end, or to the modern state of Israel. As a group, Jewish people today are not saved or believers in their Messiah.

Notice also in much of the chapter here God is talking to the actual land of Israel? That land today and the people on it are not His saved people at all. No more, really than the world in general is. The exceptions in all places are not the thrust of the prophesy here. So no, it has not started to be fulfilled.

And, yet, they are all FAMILY! They are the Messiah's "MISHPACHAH! " They are His blood relatives OR they are relatives because they have been adopted into the Family! Either way, "family" is VERY important to the Jewish culture!

Let me ask you a very important question: Do you view all people as "saved" or "unsaved?" Or, do you view all people as "justified by God" or "POTENTIALLY justified by God?" NO ONE should be written off because they are "unsaved!"

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

False. That last seven years and specifically the last half of that period is the time of Great Tribulation. There is no other.

You don't know what you're talking about. Tell me again: What are the 70 Weeks for?

(You'll find the answer in Daniel 9:24.) Where in the six purposes for these Weeks do you see ANYTHING about "tribulation?!"

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

As the new testament showed us this is prophesy of the first coming of Jesus. Then in verse 25 we could apply that to the second coming as well. When He saves all Israel. At that time we could even allow your interpretation of house of the Lord!

 

No problem.

There is a temple after Jesus returns in the millennium, no?

No better application of welcome the Comer than when He comes back!

Simple.

Nope! You're not reading Psalm 118:26 correctly! THINK about it:

Psalm 118:26 (KJV)

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

Here's the chronology:

The Messiah returns.
Out of the house of the LORD, they welcome Him and say "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH! "
Then, He builds the Temple in Ezekiel 40-48.

How can they welcome Him back "out of the house of the LORD," if there is no "house of the LORD," yet, from which they can welcome Him?!

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

Not sure you comprehend what you posted in that verse. It is plain to understand. The covenant that was mentioned involved the daily sacrifice and will be stopped and the abomination of desolation set up, until Jesus clobbers him and all his henchmen.

I understand it better than you might think! The person who is the antecedent of the words "he" in verse 27 is NOT the "prince that shall come!" That's been a LIE interjected into this passage in Daniel SO OFTEN (thanks in large part from the Pretribulational Rapturists) that people find it hard NOT to think of it that way when they read it!

Here's the simple truth from the grammar, both English and Hebrew!

In English, verse 26 is worded this way: 

Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV)

26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

This "of the prince that shall come" is a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE with an INTERNAL CLAUSE! The word "of" is a preposition, and "prince" is the object of the preposition. As such, it does NOT participate in the main clause of the sentence; that is, it cannot be the subject of the sentence, nor can it be the direct object or the indirect object of the sentence! Thus, it cannot be the antecedent of the "he" in verse 27. To find the antecedent for the words "he" in verse 27, one must go back farther to the next singular, masculine noun in the sentence, "Messiah!"

To confirm this fact, we must look at the HEBREW grammar: The Hebrew of these verses is...

וְאַחֲרֵ֤י הַשָּׁבֻעִים֙ שִׁשִּׁ֣ים וּשְׁנַ֔יִם יִכָּרֵ֥ת מָשִׁ֖יחַ וְאֵ֣ין לֹ֑ו וְהָעִ֨יר וְהַקֹּ֜דֶשׁ יַ֠שְׁחִית עַ֣ם נָגִ֤יד הַבָּא֙ וְקִצֹּ֣ו בַשֶּׁ֔טֶף וְעַד֙ קֵ֣ץ מִלְחָמָ֔ה נֶחֱרֶ֖צֶת שֹׁמֵמֹֽות׃
וְהִגְבִּ֥יר בְּרִ֛ית לָרַבִּ֖ים שָׁב֣וּעַ אֶחָ֑ד וַחֲצִ֨י הַשָּׁב֜וּעַ יַשְׁבִּ֣ית ׀ זֶ֣בַח וּמִנְחָ֗ה וְעַ֨ל כְּנַ֤ף שִׁקּוּצִים֙ מְשֹׁמֵ֔ם וְעַד־כָּלָה֙ וְנֶ֣חֱרָצָ֔ה תִּתַּ֖ךְ עַל־שֹׁמֵֽם׃ פ

Here's a transliteration of this text:

26 V'achariy hashshaaVu`iym shishshiym uvshnayim yikkaareet Maashiyach v'eeyn low vhaa`iyr vhaqqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa' vqitstsow vasheTef v`ad qeets milchaamaah necheretset shomeemowt:
27 Vhigbiyr briyt laarabiym shaaVuwa` echaad vachatsiy hashshaaVuwa` yashbiyt | zeVach uwminchaah v`al knaf shiqquwtsiym mshomeem v`ad-kaalaah vnecheraatsaah titakh `al-shomeem: P

And, here's a word-for-word translation:

26 And-after the-Weeks sixty and-two shall-be-cut-off Messiah and-nothing to-Him and-the-city and-the-Holy-Place shall-destroy a-people of-a-prince the-comer and-its-end-[shall-be] in-a-flood and-until [the]-end of-a-war are-determined desolations:
27 And-he-shall-confirm a-covenant to-many Week one and-the-half of-the-Week he-shall-cause-to-cease | sacrifice and-offering and-against a-wing of-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until-completion and-what-is-decided poured upon-desolate: (open end)

Now, in Hebrew, there is a construct called a "noun construct state" in which two (or more) nouns are placed side by side. The first noun is important to the sentence; the second noun, subordinate to the first, is a modifier of the first noun. For instance, "ben Daviyd" means "son OF-David" in translation. While "Daviyd" may not be used for the subject of that sentence containing this construct state, the first noun "ben" or "son" CAN! Thus, the primary meaning is "a people shall destroy the city and the Holy Place." The phrase "`am naggiyd" is in a "noun construct state." That is "naggiyd" meaning "a prince" cannot be part of the subject or an object in the sentence. The "sof passuq" (:) at the end of the verse in Hebrew does NOT end the sentence! It is a cantilation mark that SUGGESTS the end of the verse, but the end is not added until the "patuach" ("פ") which indicates an "open paragraph"; this is, it is the end of this thought, but the topic continues.

Thus, the sentence DOESN'T END at the end of verse 26! Indeed, verse 27 has verbs but NO SUBJECT! That is why these verbs are translated with "he shall" indicating that they are singular masculine verbs, but they have no antecedent in this verse! Again, the antecedent is in verse 26, but it cannot be "naggiyd" or "a prince"; it must go back to the next masculine, singular noun which CAN be the subject, "Maashiyach" or "Messiah."

So, verse 27 should be understood as ...

27 And-Messiah-shall-confirm a-covenant to-many Week one and-the-half of-the-Week Messiah-shall-cause-to-cease | sacrifice and-offering and-against a-wing of-abominations Messiah-shall-make-desolate and-until-completion and-what-is-decided poured upon-desolate: (end)

Now, the covenant that the Messiah confirmed was the DAVIDIC Covenant! This is found in 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17:

2 Samuel 7:8-17 (KJV)

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."

"'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 

12 "'"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

1 Chronicles 17:7-15 (KJV)

7 "Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel: 8 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth. 9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning, 10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies."

"'Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house. 

11 "'"And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore."'"

15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

This covenant was also confirmed to Miryam ("Mary") by the messenger Gavri'eel ("Gabriel") in Luke 1:30-33:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

I say this because it should fill the believer with JOY at the promises we receive through Him! (That's also why I quote so much Scripture!)

He was offered as King of the Jews, who would later become King of Israel, and we read in Revelation that He will ultimately be called the "King of kings"; that is, the WORLD EMPEROR!

However, He came first to be "haKeves Elohiym"; that is, "the Lamb of God!" And, He became the FINAL Sacrifice that God would accept for sin!

Hebrews 10:1-22 (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith,

"Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, 'Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.'"

8 Above when he said, "Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein"; which are offered by the law; 9  Then said he, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days," saith the Lord, "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 

The sacrifices that were performed after Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") died and rose again had no more efficacy! Indeed, there is a legend that says when the high priest entered the Holy of Holies with the blood of the goat for the Day of Atonement's sacrifice for the people's sins, the scarlet-dyed wool tied to the scape goat's head turned from red to white! At Yeeshuwa`s death, it did NOT change color that year! This was a symbol that God was not accepting their sacrifice for sin that year, because the Lamb of God was their Sacrifice!

And, Yeeshuwa` HIMSELF left the household of Jerusalem DESOLATE! At the end of His accusations against the scribes and the Pharisees in Matthew 23, in their multiple abominations spread out like a wing, He said this: 

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'"

Now, I'm not saying that the Beast won't be a factor during these end times, but you WON'T find him in Daniel 9!

[dad2]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, dad2.

With regard to 1948, when have you EVER known a prophecy that says "THIS is the date!"?

Never! So, to those claiming God did restore Israel then, they have work to do!

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

God is the EPITOME of patience! He does things in HIS timing! This is just the first stage of the return of His people to the Land. Before that, there were communities of Jews in many locations, particularly in Russia and in the United States. But, with the coming of the Jews to the Holy Land, we have the BEGINNINGS of the restoration!

His timing is when they call out to Him. The restoring and protection is then immediate.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Look, things seldom happen over night. How often have you seen an acorn go into the ground on one day, and the oak tree full grown on the next?

I have seen people get saved and they are new creatures. Born again. It may take time for them to get to the point where they are ready to get saved. Like the Rapture, getting our eternal bodies happens in a twinkling of the eye. No process.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Aw, sure it does. You've got to see these things happening in STAGES! 

No, and you KNOW things don't work by magic like that, anyway! They must first be CONVINCED and CONVICTED of their sins!

Great, that takes time. That has nothing to do with God restoring them to the land as promised AFTER they do.

 

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Here, you are just plain WRONG! See, you and many Christians have this false notion that "holiness" is the same as "righteousness!" They are NOT the same! A person or a people can be "holy" without being "righteous!" To be "holy" simply means that one is "singled out" for God's service! The children of Israel have been, and will always continue to be, God's "HOLY PEOPLE!" So, get over it!

We can use the words saved or unsaved. If unsaved then they are unholy. Jesus makes us holy because He is holy, not us.  When Israel is saved then they are holy. When they are not, then they are only connected to a people that God called that could be holy if they choose.  God calls Jerusalem, for example 'Sodom and Gomorrah' in it's present state. Jews are not born saved because they are Jews.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, yet, they are all FAMILY! They are the Messiah's "MISHPACHAH! " They are His blood relatives OR they are relatives because they have been adopted into the Family! Either way, "family" is VERY important to the Jewish culture!

After they are saved we are family. Not before.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Let me ask you a very important question: Do you view all people as "saved" or "unsaved?" Or, do you view all people as "justified by God" or "POTENTIALLY justified by God?" NO ONE should be written off because they are "unsaved!"

Who said we should write people off? They could get written in the book of life (or not crossed out from it) if they choose before it is too late.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You don't know what you're talking about. Tell me again: What are the 70 Weeks for?

That depends on who we are talking to. Gabriel said that there was that time for the Jews. That time however, of course is for the world! Not just Jews will be tried and saved in that time.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

(You'll find the answer in Daniel 9:24.) Where in the six purposes for these Weeks do you see ANYTHING about "tribulation?!"

To bring and end to transgression and finish it all up, there has to be that tribulation period.

Dan 12: 8  And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

⁹ And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

¹⁰ Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

 

[WilliamL]

On 12/26/2022 at 11:17 AM, dad2 said:

Many preachers suggest that He did, and that prophesy about God bringing them back to that land was fulfilled. The desert will blossom like a rose etc. Every place in Scripture that I have seen so far is talking about after Jesus returns and all (the remnant) Israel is saved. Not 1948

 Yes Israel needs to be there for endtime prophesies to be fulfilled but that does not mean God restored them and brought them there.

  

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, dad2.

With regard to 1948, when have you EVER known a prophecy that says "THIS is the date!"?

Never! So, to those claiming God did restore Israel then, they have work to do!

The prophecy of Leviticus 26 says that the Israelites would be expelled from their lands for "seven times." And then return.

7 times = 2520 sacred (360-day) years = 2484 solar years.

Since the Jews were expelled over a period of many years, they were likewise regathered over a period of many years. Here are some of the basic datings:

606 B.C.: First exile of the Jews from Jerusalem, when Nebuchadnezzar first took captives to Babylon. + 2484 solar years = 1878 A.D.: Petach Tikvah was founded, the first Jewish settlement of the Aliyah.

588 B.C. Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians. The Jewish kingdom was extinguished, and its citizens exiled and dispersed. + 2484 solar years = 1897 A.D.: The First Zionist Congress convened in Basil, Switzerland, established to promote the return of the Jews to their homeland. This was the first independent governing body by and for all of the Jews since 588 B.C.

537 B.C. Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem from Babylon, by Cyrus of Persia, and establish a vassal government. + 2484 solar years = 1948 A.D.: Jews in Palestine established the independent State of Israel.

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by WilliamL

[dad2]

6 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

  The prophecy of Leviticus 26 says that the Israelites would be expelled from their lands for "seven times." And then return.

7 times = 2520 sacred (360-day) years = 2484 solar years.

 

Looking at a commentary it says nothing about thousands of years or that a time equals 360 days? Support that concept.

 

"and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins; add new and many more chastisements, and that in hot displeasure, for their sins; and the repetition or doubling of the phrase, "I, even I, will do it", denotes the certainty of it, and that he will do it himself, and his hand should be visible in it; and they should feel the weight of it, and be obliged to own that these were punishments inflicted by him for their sins."

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/geb/leviticus-26.html#verse-28

 

"

Verse 18

 

And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Punish you seven times more - i:e., with far more severe and protracted calamities. 'Seven is the number in the divine law with which the idea of remission was ever linked. It is true that we find it as the number of punishment or retribution for evil also (Genesis 4:5; Leviticus 26:18; Leviticus 26:21; Leviticus 26:24; Leviticus 26:28; Deuteronomy 28:23); yet this should not disturb or perplex, rather confirm us in this view, since there lies ever in punishment the idea of restoration of disturbed relations, and so of forgiveness,' (Trench 'On the Par.')"

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/jfu/leviticus-26.html#verse-27

 

This suggests that the meaning has to do with severity rather than some great time. If we were to play with numbers to somehow land in 1948, then that simply puts Israel closer to the time when great and sever trials will come. Nothing to do with God restoring them in 1948.

 

[WilliamL]

11 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Looking at a commentary it says nothing about thousands of years or that a time equals 360 days? Support that concept.

Biblical prophetic "times" always equal 360 days, and in many cases, God provided "a day for a year:

Ezekiel 4:6 “And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year.

Numbers 14:34 ‘According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shaDll know My rejection.

Passages in Daniel and Revelation show that 3-1/2 times = 1260 days = 42 months, meaning that 1 time = 360 days.

[dad2]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Biblical prophetic "times" always equal 360 days, and in many cases, God provided "a day for a year:

Ezekiel 4:6 “And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year.

Numbers 14:34 ‘According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shaDll know My rejection.

Passages in Daniel and Revelation show that 3-1/2 times = 1260 days = 42 months, meaning that 1 time = 360 days.

So if 3 and a half times is 3 1/2 years, how is it also 3 times 360 years? Since we were given that same time also in months and days we know it is not a thousand plus years. A time therefore is a year. a time, times and half a time is 3 1/2 years.

In Numbers the verse talks about one 40 day period that relates to a judgment in years. It also does not mention time or times. In Eze 4 it is again talking about a specific time, 40 years and days. Again, no mention of times. This does not mean every time a day or year in the bible is mentioned it means something else! Where is a specific time given that relates to 1948?

Edited January 3, 2023 by dad2

[Retrobyter]

3 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Biblical prophetic "times" always equal 360 days, and in many cases, God provided "a day for a year:

Shalom, WilliamL.

Sorry to have to disagree, but it's not wise to TRY to defend the "360 days = 1 year" theory. It doesn't wash. It doesn't work on the Gregorian Calendar, the Julian Calendar, nor the Jewish or Hebrew Calendar! The tropical year consists of 365.24217 solar days. The "0.24217" part is why there are leap days added from time to time, (for instance every fourth year unless it is a century year unless again it is a fourth century year, etc.)

The Julian Calendar forces a consistent calendar week and month to work for business days. Extra days are considered "holidays," although they still exist in the full calendar year. Most modern Julian Calendars will use a running count of the days in the year, and some will include a countdown of the days left in the year.

The Hebrew Calendar is a LUNAR calendar with a SOLAR calendar control. Thus, it is more concerned with the fact that months are 29.5 days long, and will alternate the number of days per month as such: 29-30-29-3o-29-.... For a normal year with such an alternating pattern, the number of days in a 12-month year is 354 days. However, in a tropical year, this is much too short; so, every third year or so, another month is added - a leap month - to catch the calendar up. That makes it 385 or 386 days that year instead. In four years, they add at least one such month, which makes
(354 x 3 + 385) days = 1,445 days which is similar to our leap-day method:
(365 x 3 + 366) days = 1,461 days. One can readily see that it is still off by 16 days; so, they change other things, like how often the leap month is added and whether the leap month should include an extra day or two. For you see, the number of days in a month is not precisely 39.5 days (39.5306 days per lunar month)! However, the most important thing is that the months are TRUE months in that they show the cycle of the moon throughout the solar year. They had spotters who would be out on the hillside as sundown, looking for the first sign of a "New Moon!" However, even then, there are wobbles in both the moons orbit around the earth and the earth's orbit around the sun!

So, where did the 360 days come from? Convenience? Ease of calculation? The off-hand stumble onto something that SEEMS to work? Yes, and probably a combination of these. However, in any case, it is IMPORTANT to understand that there's no such thing as a "30-day month" and a "360-day year" in reality.

In the counting of years, the first year would be short 5.24217 days, the next year would be short 10.48434 days, the next year would be short 15.72651 days, the next years would be short 20.96868 days, the next year .... In just six years, you're off by a MONTH! In just 72 years, you're off by a FULL YEAR! It DOESN'T WORK!

3 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Ezekiel 4:6 “And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year.

Numbers 14:34 ‘According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shall know My rejection.

Passages in Daniel and Revelation show that 3-1/2 times = 1260 days = 42 months, meaning that 1 time = 360 days.

First, in Ezekiel 4:6, God was instructing His prophet Y'chezq'eel to lie on his right side and STAY THERE for a full 40 days, because He would punish the house of Yhudah or "Judah" for 40 YEARS! It was a symbolic demonstration to the house of Yhudah what they could expect!

In Numbers 14:34, God was greatly displeased with the report the spies brought back from the Promised Land. Because of their faithlessness, their mistrust in the power of God to do for them what they could not do for themselves, God let them wander in the wilderness for 40 years, a year for each day they were spying out the Land.

As far as Revelation is concerned, have you EVER considered that these mentions of time may NOT be the same time span? That they are said this way to show a difference between these lengths of time? 3.5 years at 365.24217 days/year = 1,278.35 days! 42 months at 39.5306 days/month = 1,660.2852 days! and, then the actual 1,260 days! Three different time lengths! No one equal to any of the other two!

[WilliamL]

On 1/3/2023 at 3:55 PM, dad2 said:

So if 3 and a half times is 3 1/2 years, how is it also 3 times 360 years?

3-1/2 times = 3.5 x 360 days/years = 1260 days/years. 7 times = 7 x 360 days/years = 2520 days/years = 907,200 days ÷ 365.2422 days/solar year = 2483.83 solar years.

On 1/3/2023 at 4:08 PM, Retrobyter said:

Sorry to have to disagree, but it's not wise to TRY to defend the "360 days = 1 year" theory. It doesn't wash. ...So, where did the 360 days come from? Convenience? Ease of calculation?

It came from history. The earth used to have a 360-day year, by the way. Did not change until the cataclysm in 763 B.C. (At the event of the great earthquake in the time of Uzziah, when he became a leper.) All of the ancient historical records of nations used the 360-day year up until that time. Its primary biblical use thereafter was prophetic.

The so-called "Mayan" Long Count, the oldest continuously-used calendar in the world, is made up of 360-day tuns. Moses used 360-day years in his works. But the evidence for this is far too complicated to explain here. Suggest you read Velikovsky's Worlds in Collision, chapter entitled "The Year of 360 Days;" pp. 330-59.

Edited January 9, 2023 by WilliamL

[dad2]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

3-1/2 times = 3.5 x 360 days/years = 1260 days/years.

So far so good

 

 

Quote

7 times = 7 x 360 days/years = 2520 days/years = 907,200 days ÷ 365.2422 days/solar year = 2483.83 solar years.

No. I see no reason to multiply the length of the great tribulation to thousands of years.

 

 

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

 

It came from history. The earth used to have a 360-day year, by the way. Did not change until the cataclysm in 763 B.C. (At the event of the great earthquake in the time of Uzziah, when he became a leper.) All of the ancient historical records of nations used the 360-day year up until that time. Its primary biblical use thereafter was prophetic.

The so-called "Mayan" Long Count, the oldest continuously-used calendar in the world, is made up of 360-day tuns. Moses used 360-day years in his works. But the evidence for this is far too complicated to explain here. Suggest you read Velikovsky's Worlds in Collision, chapter entitled "The Year of 360 Days;" pp. 330-59.

You are guessing as to when it changed. My guess is around the time of the tower of Babel

[Keras]

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

You are guessing as to when it changed. My guess is around the time of the tower of Babel

Actually, the change from a 360 day year to a 365.24 day year happened at the time of the Exodus. Which was, in our calendar: 1495.5 BC

At that time there was a close bypass of a large comet. Its gravitational pull, slowed down the earths orbit and caused the effects of the water supplies becoming undrinkable, the darkness, etc, and then the manna, [pure carbohydrate] to fall from space. 

When the Lord sends His fiery wrath on the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, then the earth will shudder and shake, it will be moved from its place. Isaiah 13:13     This strike of a huge mass of superheated hydrogen plasma on the earth, will speed up our orbit back to a 360 day year.  Proved by how; the 3 different times given in Revelation - 1269 days, 42 months and 3 1/2 years, will then exactly match.