Will the Day of the Lord come as a thief, or will there be signs first?

[Revelation Man]

On 1/28/2023 at 1:21 PM, iamlamad said:

Is it possible that the Day of the Lord have signs preceding and still come as a thief? That does not seem possible.

Both Paul and Peter tell us the Day will come as a thief, so with no warning. Yet, Joel tells us the sun will turn dark and the moon into blood before that great and terrible day of the Lord.

This seems to be a contradiction. How do we solve this apparent contradiction?

Let me explain why people get confused on timing because they see things interjected, that in their opinion shows them a "TIMING KEY" but that is nit how God intended the verse. Bear with me.  The "THEIF IN THE NIGHT" Phrase should only refer to those who were "CAUGHT SUDDENLY at the Rapture and therefore were surprised" but that is nit how God is using it here (well, it is, but its done in a sorta different kind of way as a WARNING) but first let me show you a chapter in Zechariah that does the exact same thing in a way. Then maybe you will get how God is using the "Thief in the Night" way after the Rapture happens in these verses. BELOW, verses 6 and 7 come 2000 years before verses 1-5 and 8-9. So, why it it INTERJECTED into the Prophecy? Because y TYING this in amidst this Prophecy, it makes it that much more of a marvel of what God knows. We get verses 1-5 and 8-9 that tells us about an End Time Israel REPENTING, but in verses 6 and 7 we are shown who paid the PRICE for their Sins (Chills) in the same passage, and the two events are 2000 years apart, and the Prophecy was 2500 years ago. (Chills again)

Zechariah 13:1 In that day there(when Israel REPENTS) shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets(Rabbis) and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth. {{ Israel repents }}

4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision(Most Rabbis understand finally they were wring about Jesus), when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: 5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

FLASHBACK 2000 years earlier to Jesus paying the PRICE !!

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.(chills at this prose)

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Flashforward again to the END TIMES !!

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Then Zech. 14:1-2 show the Day of the Lord has ARRIVED and Jerusalem gets SACKED by the Anti-Christ. 

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Now, Rev. 16 gives us this exact same sort of FLASHBACK, John is not talking about Jesus' Second Coming via the 7th Vial as being a surprise, he is INTERJECTING the former warning, he's saying REMEMBER, we told you Judgment would come upon you like a thief in the night, well that came at the Pre Trib Rapture just like the flood came AFTER the Rains started, not when they first started. So, John is pointing out this is what we WARNED YOU ABOUT, here it is, the Kings gather in Vial #6, then Jesus will judged you and wipe out all out by the presence of his coming at the 7th Vial. John is just throwing this in as an "I told you so". He is hoping the readers will now go back and take heed to those who warned what was soon coming upon mankind.

[Diaste]

On 2/2/2023 at 6:31 PM, iamlamad said:

The reason the Day won't overtake us as a thief is that we are WATCHING for His coming, expecting it every day. But even this does not explain why Joel tells us there will be signs before the day, but Paul  does not mention any signs. In fact, considering what Joel wrote, and what John wrote at the 6th seal, it seems the people recognize (after seeing the signs) that the DAY has come.

Paul does mention signs. The apostasy and the revealing in 1 Thess 2.

I think that what Jesus said, What I say to you I say to all; Watch! Means just that...keep a look out. It's not in the abstract. It's not a metaphysical expectation.

"1127 grēgoreúō – literally, "stay awake"; (figuratively) be vigilant (responsible, watchful)."

Way more that simple expectation. I would say expecting it every day is not vigilant nor watchful. It's just lazy reliance on what passes for knowledge. Part of watching is seeing the coast is clear, nothing is happening, no one is coming, no enemy at the gates. 

If one is truly watching they know what is happening and what is not. 

I can assure it's a minimum of 3.5 years from today before Jesus will return and the gathering occurs. Tomorrow it will be the same; unless what I'm watching for happens today. Then the countdown can finally begin. 

On 2/2/2023 at 6:31 PM, iamlamad said:

One explanation could be that most of the world knows nothing about what Joel wrote—that the sun will turn dark and the moon into blood before the Day begins.

I think they do. It's sort of a horrifying picture so many just ignore it. It's like the books of James and Jude in the NT. People just don't read these unsettling truths. 

On 2/2/2023 at 6:31 PM, iamlamad said:

 But even this does not explain why Joel tells us there will be signs before the day, 

Isn't the explanation that there will be signs we can see before the day comes?

On 2/2/2023 at 6:31 PM, iamlamad said:

 In fact, considering what Joel wrote, and what John wrote at the 6th seal, it seems the people recognize (after seeing the signs) that the DAY has come.

What's wrong with that? Is it a wrecking ball thrust against the foundation of hastily constructed doctrinal fortress? Is there an epiphany forthcoming? 

On 2/2/2023 at 6:31 PM, iamlamad said:

By the way, I am not desperately trying to cling to a false doctrine.

I hope in that. I hope the truth is what we all seek, everyday. Always. 

On 2/2/2023 at 6:31 PM, iamlamad said:

Paul tells us the rapture will come before wrath.
John tells us that wrath will begin before the 7oth week.

Why do you doubt what is written?

John tells us nothing. Jesus tells us everything, John only recorded what Jesus said. This in no minor distinction. You know I have never thought this a proper citation of authorship.

It's not said wrath begins before the 70th week by anyone in the NT. Jesus specifically states GT only follows the A of D, His return ends GT and the gathering occurs, at which point wrath begins. 

The Revelation timeline cannot contradict, and must follow, the outline Jesus presented at the Olivet Discourse for the end of the age and His return. It can be no other way. When one realizes this many questions are answered, understanding increased. 

Whatever is seen in the Seals, Trumps and Bowl in Revelation must be interpreted according to the Olivet Discourse outline and timeline of events. 

All we have to do is listen. 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Paul does mention signs. The apostasy and the revealing in 1 Thess 2.

I think that what Jesus said, What I say to you I say to all; Watch! Means just that...keep a look out. It's not in the abstract. It's not a metaphysical expectation.

"1127 grēgoreúō – literally, "stay awake"; (figuratively) be vigilant (responsible, watchful)."

Way more that simple expectation. I would say expecting it every day is not vigilant nor watchful. It's just lazy reliance on what passes for knowledge. Part of watching is seeing the coast is clear, nothing is happening, no one is coming, no enemy at the gates. 

If one is truly watching they know what is happening and what is not. 

I can assure it's a minimum of 3.5 years from today before Jesus will return and the gathering occurs. Tomorrow it will be the same; unless what I'm watching for happens today. Then the countdown can finally begin. 

I think they do. It's sort of a horrifying picture so many just ignore it. It's like the books of James and Jude in the NT. People just don't read these unsettling truths. 

Isn't the explanation that there will be signs we can see before the day comes?

What's wrong with that? Is it a wrecking ball thrust against the foundation of hastily constructed doctrinal fortress? Is there an epiphany forthcoming? 

I hope in that. I hope the truth is what we all seek, everyday. Always. 

John tells us nothing. Jesus tells us everything, John only recorded what Jesus said. This in no minor distinction. You know I have never thought this a proper citation of authorship.

It's not said wrath begins before the 70th week by anyone in the NT. Jesus specifically states GT only follows the A of D, His return ends GT and the gathering occurs, at which point wrath begins. 

The Revelation timeline cannot contradict, and must follow, the outline Jesus presented at the Olivet Discourse for the end of the age and His return. It can be no other way. When one realizes this many questions are answered, understanding increased. 

Whatever is seen in the Seals, Trumps and Bowl in Revelation must be interpreted according to the Olivet Discourse outline and timeline of events. 

All we have to do is listen. 

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unless what I'm watching for happens today.

What exactly are you watching for?

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it's a minimum of 3.5 years from today

Are you saying you believe in a mid-trib rapture?

 

Joel said the signs in the sun and moon will come before the Day. It seems cut and dried. Yet, Paul said the day will come as a thief.  What Paul seems to be saying is that there will be no signs.

There is another possibility: That verse in Joel was for the immediate Day of the Lord, not the far future one. 

There is nothing wrong with the people believing the Day of the Lord had come at the 6th seal. All the signs of the Day was there for them to see. And the destruction of the Day was soon to follow with the trumpet judgments. I believe the people were right. (I have had many people disagree.)

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It's not said wrath begins before the 70th week by anyone in the NT.

It is not said in so many words, but when one knows that the Week begins at the 7th seal, with the Day beginning at the 6th seal, one can know that wrath begins before the week.

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His return ends GT and the gathering occurs

I believe the days of GT will end BEFORE He comes. I believe the bowls of wrath will put a stop to the days of GT. Days will continue to finish out the 1260 days, but they will not be days of GT; they will only be dark days of fear and misery.

This gathering is not Paul's rapture. It cannot be.

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His return ends GT and the gathering occurs, at which point wrath begins. 

Sorry, my friend, but this is myth. John begins the Day of His wrath, so "wrath," in Rev. chapter 6. Jesus returns in chapter 19, over SEVEN YEARS LATER.

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The Revelation timeline cannot contradict, and must follow, the outline Jesus presented at the Olivet Discourse

Jesus was, of course, also behind the Vision John saw. I agree with you; Revelation and Jesus end time discourse MUST agree. However, Jesus never mentioned the Day of the Lord. John never mentioned the abomination. 

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Whatever is seen in the Seals, Trumps and Bowl in Revelation must be interpreted according to the Olivet Discourse outline and timeline of events. 

Jesus never mentioned the seals, trumpets or bowls. But we can follow Him with Wars, Famines, and Pestilence with seals 2-4. We can follow the abomination in Revelation because Jesus said those in Judea must flee when they see it, and we see the fleeing in 12:6. Jesus mentioned the days of GT that would be worse than anything, and John tells us why: the image and the mark being enforced with the threat of beheading.

Jesus talked about His descent to Armageddon, and John covered that in chapter 19.

Jesus never mentioned Paul's rapture, for that was a mystery hidden in the Father to be revealed by Paul.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Actually it's not uncommon for multiple prophecies to be spoken of in the same text.  There are many instances ( especially in Isaiah ) where the 1st and 2nd comings of Jesus are mentioned together. It's normal for a passage to be mentioning more than 1 prophecy at a time. That's why prophetic passages can be hard to understand. I'm certain people won't be celebrating at the end of the tribulation ( except Christians who know Jesus is about to appear ). The celebration of the deaths of the 2 witnesses is simply a worldwide holiday celebrated by the unbelievers under the power of the beast. Revelation 3:10 is a clear Pre-Trib prophecy. It can't be understood any other way without twisting the meaning or reading between lines that aren't there. As far as human reasoning,  I believe ALL interpretation has an element of Human Reasoning to it. I've heard many blasphemous things from people who claimed their interpretation was from the Holy Spirit. So I take other people's supposed interpretation with a grain of salt. I pray and study and ask Jesus for guidance and then when I feel I have the correct interpretation,  I go with it.  But I can always be wrong,  as any of us can. We must always be willing to be corrected when error is shown and to be humble when teaching in case we are in error. 

Rev. 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1 Thes. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

I believe these two verses are telling us the same thing. Agree?

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Rev. 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1 Thes. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

I believe these two verses are telling us the same thing. Agree?

Yes,  I think those are probably talking about the same thing. The rapture,  not the 2nd coming. 

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

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unless what I'm watching for happens today.

What exactly are you watching for?

These things in this order in all likelihood:

And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

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it's a minimum of 3.5 years from today

Are you saying you believe in a mid-trib rapture?

No. It's a minimum. The return of Jesus and the gathering only happens after the A of D, and after the rebellion and the revealing, both at or near the midpoint. 

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Joel said the signs in the sun and moon will come before the Day. It seems cut and dried. Yet, Paul said the day will come as a thief.  What Paul seems to be saying is that there will be no signs.

Yet there must be a non contradictory solution as the answer.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is another possibility: That verse in Joel was for the immediate Day of the Lord, not the far future one. 

Joel depicts the A of D. Only one has occurred, in 168 BC. No day of the Lord happened then. Jesus predicted another one future from the 1st century. 

Joel's record of prophecy looks to the time Jesus spoke about in the Olivet Discourse. 

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is nothing wrong with the people believing the Day of the Lord had come at the 6th seal. All the signs of the Day was there for them to see. And the destruction of the Day was soon to follow with the trumpet judgments. I believe the people were right. (I have had many people disagree.)

Sure. Still doesn't prove there will be a pretrib rapture. In fact the scripture points to signs that must occur before the gathering. 

[Keras]

Isaiah 29:1-2 Woe betide Ariel, Jerusalem……when another year has passed with its full round of feasts, I shall reduce her to dire straits…… and then I shall make her My fire Altar.  REB

Isaiah 29:1-2 Woe to you Ariel, Jerusalem! Add year to year and let your cycle of festivals go on, yet I will besiege Ariel…..she will be to Me like an Altar hearth. NIV

Isaiah 29:1-2 Woe to Ariel, Jerusalem…..add year to year, let them kill sacrifices. Yet I will distress Ariel…..there will be sorrow and it shall be to Me as a fire Altar. KJV

Isaiah 29:1-2 Woe to Ari’el, Jerusalem! Celebrate the feasts for a few more years…..then she will become as a fire Altar for Me. CJB

Then Isaiah 29:5-8 goes on to say how the Lord will also destroy the enemies with a sudden punishment of thunder, earthquakes and flames of devouring fire. Joel 1:15

This all relates to the Sixth Seal forthcoming Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath against the nations.

We know that the Lord will take this action on an Appointed Day, Hab. 2:3 and the Day of Trumpets,  But there are some things that must  happen before the Day of wrath:

1/ Where is Elijah? Malachi 4:5.

2/ Judah still has its leaders. Isaiah 3:1-7 and Micah 5:1

3/ Is Iran and her allies ready to attack yet? Psalm 83, Micah 4:11-12

What is prophesied in Isaiah 29, seems to be saying that only after the seven Mo’ed’s of the year have passed, will the Lord take action. The modern Jewish calendar has 1 Tishri as new years day, but the original new year was 1 Nisan.

[iamlamad]

On 2/5/2023 at 5:11 AM, Diaste said:

These things in this order in all likelihood:

And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

No. It's a minimum. The return of Jesus and the gathering only happens after the A of D, and after the rebellion and the revealing, both at or near the midpoint. 

Yet there must be a non contradictory solution as the answer.

Joel depicts the A of D. Only one has occurred, in 168 BC. No day of the Lord happened then. Jesus predicted another one future from the 1st century. 

Joel's record of prophecy looks to the time Jesus spoke about in the Olivet Discourse. 

Sure. Still doesn't prove there will be a pretrib rapture. In fact the scripture points to signs that must occur before the gathering. 

I think you are giving far too much weight on the 2 Thes. 2 passage. I believe what you you think is a rebellion is actually the departing of the church. It is what must come first.

I wonder if your theory would change if you did not use that passage?

Edited February 6, 2023 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 2/4/2023 at 4:00 PM, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Yes,  I think those are probably talking about the same thing. The rapture,  not the 2nd coming. 

Now we have a difference in terms. Since He came once, the rapture must be the second time He will come. See Heb. 9:28. It is the only mention of a "second" coming. 

It certainly is a "coming" according to Paul.

The way I count, His coming to Armageddon will be His THIRD coming.

(I don't see "stages" in either coming.)

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Now we have a difference in terms. Since He came once, the rapture must be the second time He will come. See Heb. 9:28. It is the only mention of a "second" coming. 

It certainly is a "coming" according to Paul.

The way I count, His coming to Armageddon will be His THIRD coming.

(I don't see "stages" in either coming.)

I'm not sure scripture supports the idea of 3 comings. So I think the rapture doesn't count as a coming. Although for those who consider 3 comings,  I guess that solves the problem. Is there a verse that calls the rapture a coming? Also,  what do you mean about stages?