Revelation 11:18

[JoeCanada]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:52 AM, Keras said:

Revelation 11:18 is a very tricky verse. It says the Lord's wrath has come; the terrible Sixth Seal and the 7 Trumpet disasters. Past events.   Then it says it is time for the Judgment and rewards

Rev 11:18....

"We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who ARE...(present tense?) ... and who WERE (Past tense?)

"And the nations WERE enraged..... (Were, past tense?)

"And Your wrath CAME.....(past tense?)

"And the time CAME for the dead to be judged.....(past tense?)

"And the time to reward your bond-servants....."............ (this happened at the sixth seal...Yes?)

I don't see the sixth seal as "terrible", unless one is left behind. Then it will be "terrible" indeed. But for the righteous, it will be a glorious occassion. And our "reward" comes with Him, when we meet Him in the air. Hallelujah! 

 

[JoeCanada]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:05 PM, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 2 & 3 is the Church Age (The things WHICH ARE) 

Rev man, 

Please explain this.

Please show how each of the letters is peculiar to a certain church "age".

 

[JoeCanada]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:05 PM, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church in heaven  whole Jesus opens the Seals (which do nothing in reality)

Also, please explain the "church in heaven".

How? Why? Which passage in Rev 4 and 5 shows the church in heaven?

I know this is off topic from the OP, but since you brought it up, as well as the  letters to the seven churches, I think this needs a full explanation from "Revelation Man"

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Rev man, 

Please explain this.

Please show how each of the letters is peculiar to a certain church "age".

They aren't, the number 7 merely means DIVINE COMPLETION. Thus the 7 Churches represents many different types (Completion) and the number 7 means God has divinely completed the complete Church Age. Everything after the 7 (Complete Church Age) will be the 70th week, or HEREAFTER. I do not subscribe to 7 different types, I think all  the (7) types are in the whole or complete Church Age. 

 

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Also, please explain the "church in heaven".

How? Why? Which passage in Rev 4 and 5 shows the church in heaven?

I know this is off topic from the OP, but since you brought it up, as well as the  letters to the seven churches, I think this needs a full explanation from "Revelation Man"

My pleasure

God wrote the book of Revelation, gave it to Jesus who gave it to his servant John via visions and utterances from angels, thus he used 1200 "ANDS" because he had to write these things down in a fast pace or he would have missed them, he was merely taking dictation for God the Father. Thus Gid write th8s book to intrigue us, and in a shroud of mystery/secrets/codes/metaphors so we his Church could understand but the world, especially the Romans, couldn't understand it, therefore they wouldn't kill the church off, and destroy the document. So, Babylon is a stand on for the whole world getting judged, Rome laughed at Babylon getting judged, it was a dead city, but if the world was said to have been getting Judged, well Rome in their minds was ruling the whole world. In Rev. 12 Woman was used for Israel, the Romans did not want to hear Israel would be doing anything, much less ruling the world at the very end. Likewise, I see the 144,000 also as a code for All Israel who repents. These codes and metaphors go on and on and on in this great book written by God, thus its a blessing. Now I can show you how God ENCODED Rev. 4 with things he showed us in Rev. 2 and 3.

Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days(Complete Church Age is tribulation): be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev. 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Now, lets look at Rev. 4:1 THE RAPTURE (Pre Trib) the Last Trump, and lets look at Rev. 4:4 which shows the Church is in heaven by this time.

Rev, 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.....................(after the Church Age).

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

So what does Rev. 2:10, 3:5 and 3:21 say? It says only this who OVERCOME will be given White Robes, a Crown of Gold/Glory and will sit at God's THRONE !! God doesn't, nor can He lie !! These people are DEAD and thus OVECAME the world, then got Raptured, and are sitting at God's throne, with the Promised White Raiment on and with Crowns of Gold on. 

The 24 Elders represent the Priesthood, see 1 Chronicles 24. In Rev. 1:6 and in Rev. 5:10 we are called Kings and Priests unto our Father.

Rev. 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev. 4:1 represents the LAST TRUMP (Jesus calling us home) which ends the SUMMER HARVEST (Church Age)

This is God SHOUTING, this is my beloved Church in Heaven who have OVERCOME the world by Jesus' blood. Every clue points to a PROMISE God made unto those who OVERCAME !! 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Revelation Man

[Keras]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

"And the time to reward your bond-servants....."............ (this happened at the sixth seal...Yes?)

No.

Jesus will bring our rewards with Him when He Returns, Matthew 16:27. which will not happen before all the wrath of God is over. Revelation 15:1

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but since the trumpets are written inside the book, and the book cannot get opened until all seven seals are opened first, I must disagree with this. John's order is, seals first, then the trumpets, then the vials.

Okay.

[Retrobyter]

On 2/2/2023 at 10:49 PM, JoeCanada said:

Let's look at two versions of Revelation 11:18:

From the NASB:

"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

From the King James:

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

I quoted these two scriptures from the NASB and King James as they seem to be the most popular Bibles in use on this forum. You may correct me if I'm wrong.

In looking at the various versions,  of the 30 bibles there is about a 50/50 (16 to 14) split in the translation of " Your wrath came.... and.... Your wrath is come".

Does it make a difference?

It makes a world of difference.

One is present tense and one is past tense.

If we look at the beginning of the verse, it says "the nations were enraged.... the nations were angry". This is past tense. Most all of the 30 versions use the same tense....'were'.

So which is correct?....:

"The nations were enraged, and thy wrath came?

                             or

"The nations were angry and thy wrath is come"

Here is why it makes a difference. 

Pre-wrath believes that Jesus comes on the clouds after the 6th seal is opened and,  with a SHOUT and with the trumpet of God, sends His angels to collect the resurrected dead and the alive in Christ, together, and escorts them to heaven to present them to the Father. Then God's wrath begins with the trumpets and ends with the bowls.

Which rev 11:18 being past tense would work. Its like a recap of past events. 

Now, post-trib is a little different in that they  seem to believe that the resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet, ie the 7th trumpet,  and then God's wrath commences with the bowl judgments.

Which rev 11:18 as a present tense could work, except the saints would then be subject to the wrath of God in the trumpet judgments. Post trib works around this by claiming that the last trumpet is the same as the 7th trumpet and that the seals and trumpets open together, sort of, and only the bowls are the wrath of God. 

How one reads Rev 11:18 and applies that to their understanding of end-times.... well, the problem is here stated.

Shalom, Joe Canada.

It helps to know from where this passage of Scripture comes. This is a QUOTATION from Psalm 2: (And, just a reminder, I use GREEN for narration; PURPLE for the royal words of YHWH God the Father, RED for the words of the Messiah, the Son of God, who bled for us, and BLUE for everyone else.)

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV with punctuation and color)

1 WHY DO THE HEATHEN RAGE, AND THE PEOPLE IMAGINE A VAIN THING? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD (YHWH), and against his anointed (His Messiah), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us!"

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 THEN SHALL HE SPEAK UNTO THEM IN HIS WRATH, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion! 7 I will declare the decree:

"'the LORD (YHWH) hath said unto me,

"'"Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."'

10 "Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him!"

This is talking about the time in the future when the King, YHWH God the Almighty, begins to reign through His Son, Yeeshuwa`, His Anointed One to be His representative King! The "kings and judges of the earth" are trying to hold a secret U.N. meeting, and GOD SHOWS UP in their meeting with a LOUD LAUGH, and the Messiah, who comes as well, pokes fun at them! Then, God the Father lays down the Law for them! Whether they like it or not, it doesn't matter!

I guarantee you that this will LITERALLY happen very soon after YHWH God and His Messiah begin to reign over some of them, probably after the war tribunal which will happen after God and the Messiah kick all foreigners out of the Land of Israel (Armageddon or Har-Megiddown)!

With this background in place, NOW go back and see how this should be understood.

[truth7t7]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:49 PM, JoeCanada said:

Let's look at two versions of Revelation 11:18:

From the NASB:

"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

From the King James:

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

I quoted these two scriptures from the NASB and King James as they seem to be the most popular Bibles in use on this forum. You may correct me if I'm wrong.

In looking at the various versions,  of the 30 bibles there is about a 50/50 (16 to 14) split in the translation of " Your wrath came.... and.... Your wrath is come".

Does it make a difference?

It makes a world of difference.

One is present tense and one is past tense.

If we look at the beginning of the verse, it says "the nations were enraged.... the nations were angry". This is past tense. Most all of the 30 versions use the same tense....'were'.

So which is correct?....:

"The nations were enraged, and thy wrath came?

                             or

"The nations were angry and thy wrath is come"

Here is why it makes a difference. 

Pre-wrath believes that Jesus comes on the clouds after the 6th seal is opened and,  with a SHOUT and with the trumpet of God, sends His angels to collect the resurrected dead and the alive in Christ, together, and escorts them to heaven to present them to the Father. Then God's wrath begins with the trumpets and ends with the bowls.

Which rev 11:18 being past tense would work. Its like a recap of past events. 

Now, post-trib is a little different in that they  seem to believe that the resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet, ie the 7th trumpet,  and then God's wrath commences with the bowl judgments.

Which rev 11:18 as a present tense could work, except the saints would then be subject to the wrath of God in the trumpet judgments. Post trib works around this by claiming that the last trumpet is the same as the 7th trumpet and that the seals and trumpets open together, sort of, and only the bowls are the wrath of God. 

How one reads Rev 11:18 and applies that to their understanding of end-times.... well, the problem is here stated.

 

 

The book of Revelation is seen in "Parallel" teachings of "Same Events"

Example: Revelation 11:18 & Revelation 20:11-15 below, same event in the "Final Judgement", a future event unfulfilled

Jesus Is The Lord

(The Final Judgement)

Revelation 11:18KJV

18 the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Edited February 7, 2023 by truth7t7

[abcdef]

On 2/6/2023 at 6:28 PM, JoeCanada said:

my brother from another mother,

I really do not see this as a possibility.

First of all, if every army in the world, including reservists, could field this army of 200 million on horses, there are not even enough horses, even if one were to include race horses and show horses and draft horses and ponies etc. These horsemen and their riders in Rev 9:16 have to be demon armies.

My brother, 

Since this is a deep subject, I will try to be short.

We agree that there are not enough horses on the planet to make the horses literal. Then the horses must be symbolic of something else. We might associate them with the symbolism of the 4 horsemen of the first 4 seals. This would show that they are powerful and have the strength to overcome opposition, as horses in ancient armies would.

The armies are demonic, we agree. Some people see demons as, like in the "Ghostbusters" movies, free form vaporous apparitions.  That may be, in some cases. But usually the demons need a material body to inhabit. This is what I believe that is the situation shown at the 6th trumpet.

My belief is that they are false teachers. This is because of these verses, Rev 9:18-19, and Isa 9:15. (Also see Rev 9:10). They kill the soul with the false teachings of their mouths.

It may be considered also that their teachings cause others to kill.

I'm trying to keep it simple and short.

 

On 2/6/2023 at 6:28 PM, JoeCanada said:

Second, there is nowhere that says this 'army' heads to Jerusalem.

Try to keep in mind that the scriptures are all written from the point of view of Israel. Many have changed the Revelation viewpoint to that of the gentile planet.

That means that the enemies described are the enemies of Israel. Attacking the children of Israel. The events and entities all center on the children of Israel in some way.

The armies of the 6th trumpet are not necessarily enemies of the gentile planet, they are likely considered allies of the unbelieving gentiles, that hate Israel.

Then it could be assumed, when looking at the armies of the 6th trumpet, that are in the Euphrates River area, that they are being seen from Jerusalem looking eastward.

 

On 2/6/2023 at 6:28 PM, JoeCanada said:

It does say that they would kill a third of mankind by three plagues, by the fire and smoke and brimstone that proceeds from their mouths.

If mouth is how they kill the souls, by false teachings. Persuading others to kill Israel.

We might think about this, that when it says "mankind", it is talking about the children of Israel. This can be explained further.

1/3 of Israel killed means that Israel is not complete anymore. Observe where other places use this "1/3" symbolism. Rev 8:7, 12,  Rev 16:19.

Think about what the clergy of Iran chants everyday, "Death to Israel". Their mouths utter fire, sulfur, and brimstone, the doctrines of hell, against ..... Israel. Also think about the symbolism of the mouth that is shown. Dan 7:8, Rev 11:5,  Rev 13:5-6.

 

On 2/6/2023 at 6:28 PM, JoeCanada said:

Third, it doesn't even say that the 'army' is from 'across the Euphrates River'. It says that they were 'bound AT the great Euphrates River.

The angels are first seen in Rev 7:1-3. They are charged by a superior angel to hold back the winds until the sealing is done.

The angels are released from their "binding" declaration from the superior angel of holding back the winds (against Israel), in Rev 9:13-15.

The winds that they hold back are winds of destruction, that are shown to hurt the Earth, sea, and trees, Rev 7:3.

Basically, those would represent, the sea of the gentile nations, the trees (of figs and olives being the children of Israel), and the earth of Israel.

Since they are told to wait until all the souls are sealed, we must assume that the winds might effect those entities if not sealed.

Think, if the 6th trumpet horsemen are symbolic, then the entities that they effect are symbolized also.

 

On 2/6/2023 at 6:28 PM, JoeCanada said:

So, indeed there is a lot of assumptions going on.

There are assumptions, yes, but many things can be identified and can be reasoned out using the scriptures as the guide.

Briefly.

[abcdef]

On 2/6/2023 at 6:28 PM, JoeCanada said:

my brother from another mother,

I really do not see this as a possibility.

First of all, if every army in the world, including reservists, could field this army of 200 million on horses, there are not even enough horses, even if one were to include race horses and show horses and draft horses and ponies etc. These horsemen and their riders in Rev 9:16 have to be demon armies.

Second, there is nowhere that says this 'army' heads to Jerusalem. It does say that they would kill a third of mankind by three plagues, by the fire and smoke and brimstone that proceeds from their mouths.

Third, it doesn't even say that the 'army' is from 'across the Euphrates River'. It says that they were 'bound AT the great Euphrates River.

So, indeed there is a lot of assumptions going on.

Rev 11:18,

Ask yourself, Who is the wrath directed against?

Unbelieving Israel? The gentile nations?

What is the result of the wrath?

The last events that happen before the wrath of the 7th trumpet "is come", "has come", is the death of the 2 witnesses and the 6th trumpet.

How do those 2 events relate to the wrath of the 7th trumpet?