Who is the Man Child in Revelation 12?

[Mr. M]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Jesus is a Man.  His purpose is with man - to restore what God has made. God gave us dominion and Christ has won this back for us - now Christ IN US is our hope of glory!

That's the covenant.

Galatians 3:15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: 

Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed,

no one annuls or adds to it.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator

between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

[ChristB4us]

3 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks and seems to make sense (or at least a few interesting things to think about).  What specifically does this address in this discussion of who the man-child is?

It was written in response to your earlier post below:

"Jesus is a Man.  His purpose is with man - to restore what God has made. God gave us dominion and Christ has won this back for us - now Christ IN US is our hope of glory!"

You may know that Jesus is the Son of God as God, but some reading your post alone may misread that as aligning with their beliefs that Jesus was just a man.

I did not want that to be a stray thought as picked up from any one reading this thread that Jesus being talked about as being the man child was in any way deferring from His deity.

Thanks for your patience and tolerance for taking time out to clarify the deity of Jesus Christ even though He was the prophesied Son of Man to come to give His life as a ransom for many.

[Your closest friendnt]

7 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Where do you see overcomers mentioned?  Can you provide a scripture that says this?  Michael and his angels were involved, along with Satan and his angels, not overcomers.  Satan loses and is cast down to earth.  

Revelation 12:7-9  NIV  

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

***The events in the narrative above happened between Michael and his angels and the Dragon and his angels and in verse 9 the great dragon was identified as the "ancient Serpent called the Devil or Satan. 

***In verse 7 above it says that Michael and his angels started the war in Heaven when they attacked the Dragon and his angels...And and at the end of verse seven it says that the Dragon and his angels fought back..

Verse eight the Dragon and his angels they lost their place in Heaven because verse eight they were not strong enough...

The Dragon and his angels lost their place in Heaven...

Before that they had a place in Heaven and when they were not strong enough to hold on to it..they lost their place in Heaven and the following verse nine the Dragon and his angels are hurled down to the earth, in verse 9. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

This happened before this event as it is described in verse ten 10. 

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
    and the kingdom of our God,
    and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
    who accuses them before our God day and night,
    has been hurled down.

 From the narrative above the events in verse ten are following the events in verse nine. Verse ten begins with the word "Now" which for the events in verse ten took place after Michael and his angels were victorious in their fight against the Dragon and his angels...Michael and his angels accoblished what they were set out to accomplish when they attacked the Dragon and his angels (in verse seven) and that was to expelled the Dragon and his angels from their place in Heaven. 

In verse ten..beginning with the word "Now" 

(What does "now" mean at the beginning of a sentence?

It means 'at the present time', 'at this moment' or 'very soon'.)

The events in verse ten take place after the events in verses 7-9.

V.10 “Now have come the salvation and the power
    and the kingdom of our God,
    and the authority of his Messiah. 

*** In verse ten "Now has come the Salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, 

and the authority of his Messiah.  

*** what it should come in our minds is the words of Jesus Christ.."all authority has been given unto me..in Heaven and on the earth and in all things under the earth"..

The events with Michael and the Dragon took place...before events in verse ten...before anyone was saved or before the Salvation of our God and the authority of his Messiah...before the great commission of Jesus to his disciples....they were not any believers involved in the war between Michael and Dragon...because the Salvation of God and the authority of his Messiah and the great commission came later on after the Dragon was hurled down to earth...

 

[Your closest friendnt]

Revelation 12:9 NIV 

9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 

** In the temptations of Jesus in the wilderness...Jesus was confronted by the Dragon the ancient Serpent called the Devil or Satan who leads the whole world astray...

At that time with Jesus in the wilderness the war in Heaven between Michael and his angels and the Dragon and his angels was over as the Dragon that ancient Serpent called the Devil or Satan had lost his place in Heaven and he was found on earth in the wilderness trying to lead Jesus astray...

** From the above narrative we learned that the Messiah could not come to the world unless the Dragon that ancient Serpent called the Devil or Satan had been hurled down to the earth after loosing his fight with Michael and his angels. 

The Dragon that ancient Serpent had to be on earth for the fight between him and the seed of the woman..as it was foretold in Genesis 3:14-15 NIV posted below..

It is quite fascinating that at that time in Genesis in verse fourteen it was foretold that the Serpent called the Devil or Satan will be hurled down from Heaven as we learned in Revelation 12:7-9 from Michael and his angels and he will loose his place in Heaven and be found on earth...

In Genesis 3:14.   “Cursed are you above all livestock
    and all wild animals!

** You will crawl on your belly
    and you will eat dust
    all the days of your life.

And that was said before the Lord said in verse 15 that a great fight will take place that time on the earth  between the Serpent and the seed of the woman...the Messiah of God. 

And it was foretold what will happen as a result that the Devil will loose his authority on the earth and the authority will be given to Jesus Christ.  With the beginning of the time when Jesus shed the blood of the new Covenant...Jesus had to die there was not another way...the atonement was always nade with the blood of the slain Lamb.. 

Jesus redeemed us with his blood from the Devil..which shows the authority of the Devil on mankind and how he lost that authority when he lost his fight with Jesus Christ...not succeeding in deceiving Jesus Christ and cause him to fall...the way he cause Adam to fall...

Jesus Christ said the reigned of the Dragon the ancient Serpent called the Devil and Satan on the mankind has come to the end..I have the keys of Death and Hades...I am the Judge of all people...I decide ...everyone will be judged by me...the Devil lost his authority to take everyone by default at the time of their death because they were from the fallen seed of Adam.

**14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
    and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
    and you will eat dust
    all the days of your life.

**15 And I will put enmity
    between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
    and you will strike his heel.”

 

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

I am appreciating your thread and discussion. Now I may have to hand back my `esteemed` position as I did not say `Mary` was the woman. Sorry you thought that. Anyway, I am working on your New Jerusalem thought. I will give more detail tomorrow.

regards, Marilyn.

May the Lord bless your search. If you come to the truth and it is not the same as mine - I respect it.

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

May the Lord bless your search. If you come to the truth and it is not the same as mine - I respect it.

Hi Ad Hoc,

I believe you are partly on the right track. Let me explain. You refer to -

`the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. ` (Gal. 4: 26)

 

Let`s look at the heavenly Jerusalem.

`you have come to Mount Zion AND to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem…` (Heb. 12: 22)

Two parts there. Jerusalem is made up of Mount Zion and the city. This was so on earth. King David ruled from Mount Zion above the city. It was ALL called Jerusalem. That is a representation of the heavenly Jerusalem –

 Mount Zion where Jesus is appointed of the Father to rule in the highest.

`I (Father) have set my King, (Jesus) on my holy hill of Zion. ` (Ps. 2: 6)

The City which will come down to the lower heavens to be the rulership there.

`Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out on heaven from God…` (Rev. 21: 2)

 

So, we have Mount Zion in the highest where the Lord reigns with His Body, (Rev. 3: 21) and then we have the City come down to be the rulership in the Universal realm.

And we know that will be in the New Heavens and New Earth time. However, Rev. 12 is not there yet. But it represents, is a sign, of God`s promise to Abraham.

`I (God) will multiply your (Abraham) descendants as the STARS OF HEAVEN…` (Gen. 22: 17)

Some of Abraham`s descendants will rule in the Universal realm. That is what is promised to them.

`Therefore God, is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 16)

 

Thus, we have the Body of Christ in the rulership with Christ on Mount Zion in the highest, (third heaven). Then we have the Old Testament saints who will go to the city which will come down to the lower heavens.

Jerusalem is therefore the mother of us all. Some on Mount Zion and some in the city.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

So how does that fit in with Rev. 12?

Revelation, the unveiling of the Lord in 4 great Visions – (1) as Head of His Body, (2) as Heir of the world, (3) as Mediator of the New Covenant and (4) as Judge.

 

In Vision 3 Christ is unveiled as the Mediator. We see Him at the golden altar interceding for the reconciled, and bringing retribution for those at enmity with God, (Rev. 8). He begins the judgments, which cover the tribulation. (8 – 11)

 

Then from Rev.12 & 13 we see 7 personages that are prominent in the tribulation – the woman, Satan, the Child, the archangel, the remnant, the Beast of the sea, and the Beast of the earth. It describes the battle in the heavenlies which then goes to earth.

 

The Rev. 12: 1 sign takes place amid the sun, moon and stars. This is the Universal realm, called Principalities and Powers. Satan usurped this realm and works in the unseen from there. (Eph. 2: 2 `power of the air, Eph. 6: 12 `against Principalities and Powers.`)

It is this realm that Job says - `the heavens are not pure in His sight.` (Job 15: 15)

 

Thus, the great battle to evict the usurper from that Universal realm of Principalities and Powers. The realm where the new Jerusalem will come down and rule. The city promised to the Old Testament saints.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

So, who is able to evict the usurper and how does He do it? This is what we see described in Rev. 12.

`Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom (rule) of our God, and the power of His CHRIST have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.` (Rev. 12: 10)

Christ`s power – authority, the lawful right.

Accuser – Satan, Devil, serpent of Old and great Dragon.

 

Christ had overcome Satan through His death, resurrection, and ascension.

Death and resurrection - `Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He (Jesus) Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is the devil and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. ` (Heb. 2: 14 & 15)

Ascension - `far above Principalities and powers..` (Eph. 1: 21)

 

 

So, is there scriptural proof of Christ`s identity with man in Rev. 12? YES.

 

1.     Christ was born of the nation of Israel – woman. (v. 1 & 2)

The description of sun, moon and 12 stars, is explained by God as the beginning of the nation of Israel. (Gen. 37: 9)

2.     Christ was the promised Child -  Child. (v. 5) (Isa. 9: 6, 66: 8)

 

3.     Christ was their promised king – rule, His throne. (v. 5) (Matt. 1: 1 – 17,  2 Sam. 7: 16)

 

4.     Christ overcame the accuser – (v. 10) (1 Cor. 2: 7 & 8,  Heb. 14 & 15)

 

Thus, we see that it is Christ, the promised male Child, the promised King who will overcome the accuser and evict him from the Universal realm, the Principalities and Powers. Eventually we know from God`s word that the Old Testament Saints will go there in the city.

 

However, there are still authorities and powers ON the earth that have to be dealt with. And that is the subject of Rev. 16 – 19.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

 

10 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

It was written in response to your earlier post below:

"Jesus is a Man.  His purpose is with man - to restore what God has made. God gave us dominion and Christ has won this back for us - now Christ IN US is our hope of glory!"

 

10 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

You may know that Jesus is the Son of God as God, but some reading your post alone may misread that as aligning with their beliefs that Jesus was just a man.

There are more than a few things that I have reasons not to like in the paragraph above.

Now that I have said that I have the duty to let you know about them. 

In line one and two in the quoted paragraph above it says: " You may know that Jesus is the Son of God as God,". 

"Jesus is the Son of God as God" 

Jesus is indeed the Son of God and now we own some people an exploration because when they read about Jesus that he was born from a woman they understand that first we must have the conception...the fertilizetion of the egg in his mother's womb and then the fetus and his development during those nine months the gestation period of a human being male or female. 

And then he went during the infancy time...growing up and he had to be taken care of because for his survival he had to depend on his mother...

I forgot to say that someone had to cut off the placenta at the time he was born...

And he grew up from an infant to a child ...year after year he was subject to growth...

And at the end he died on the Cross just like any other healthy man would die. The moment came that his body cannot sustain life..and he died...he suffered the physical death any one some day will.

Now all this makes him a man...Jesus did not denied that he is a man...as a matter of fact he said that he will die on the Cross...

It is important to so proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus was a man in evry way we are...

With Abraham and Issac God showed us that he is looking for a man to die to provide the blood of the Covenant...

He said not Issac but someone else God will bring up for that propose ...God will provide the man who is qualified to be the provider of the blood Covenant...

He gave us notice there is a Covenant remaining to happen by the blood of the man God will provide...

Now the onus is on us to prove that Jesus quilifies to be the Lamb God provided to shed the blood for the remaining Covenant...and that means that he had to died as the atonement in the Law were made with the blood of the dead Lamb...

That's why we say about Jesus the Slain Lamb of God. 

Jesus was devine...and we have to sow that any man can't be eligible not even any one from the chosen seed of Abraham...and why Jesus is qualified...

And we need to keep in mind that when we say that Jesus was calling God his Father and that he was saying that he only had a Heavenly Father...and that he never called Abraham his Father like all the other people of the Nation of Israel the Nation of the people of God...

Jesus made the big distinction between him and God and God first before him made the distinction between the two of them...that the Father is a Spirit without flesh and blood like Jesus Christ...and this is what disciples were preaching..

Even said that the Heavenly Father or God gave everything he had ...all his theotis and the Kingdom and the Throne to be the Judge of all to a man...to someone with flesh and blood just like us...exactly as we are in everything before his death on the Cross...after Jesus body change but he was still in his body as he so proof of that many times before his ascension and after his resurrection from the dead...that mean indeed he died on the Cross...

Jesus was devine and he was someone else before he left everything to enter the world of the human beings when he was born in Bethleem and someone had to cut the biblical cord...from the beginning his new life as a man.

Not just any man in the Spiritual but just any other man in the Physical..from in the people of God..and raised with the people of God and his mother from the people of God. The Israelites. 

So it is paramount to say that Jesus was and is a Man because we are welcome by the Heavenly Father because he is like us...we have the confidence that we are the children of God because we are in Jesus and we also can call him our Father and be in Heaven having a Heavenly Inheritance in the Heavenly kingdom even though God is not a man but a Spirit but that possible because Jesus was like him in the Spirit and he can be with God and God can be with him even though He had a body of flesh and blood...a human body...

That's why he can be our Mediator between God and man...and he died for our sins...and we are under the eternal fountain of his blood which gives us Life EVERLASTING...we have nothing to fear...fefinatly we should live without the fear of sin...because sin it cannot give us death...in the Law it could give the people death...and not just any sin..but the sins unto death..

We are under the blood of the blood of the Lamb of God...eternal atonement in the blood of Jesus Christ. 

 

 

10 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

I did not want that to be a stray thought as picked up from any one reading this thread that Jesus being talked about as being the man child was in any way deferring from His deity.

Thanks for your patience and tolerance for taking time out to clarify the deity of Jesus Christ even though He was the prophesied Son of Man to come to give His life as a ransom for many.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:55 PM, Marilyn C said:

So, who is able to evict the usurper and how does He do it? This is what we see described in Rev. 12.

`Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom (rule) of our God, and the power of His CHRIST have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.` (Rev. 12: 10)

Christ`s power – authority, the lawful right.

Accuser – Satan, Devil, serpent of Old and great Dragon.

 

Christ had overcome Satan through His death, resurrection, and ascension.

Death and resurrection - `Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He (Jesus) Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is the devil and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. ` (Heb. 2: 14 & 15)

Ascension - `far above Principalities and powers..` (Eph. 1: 21)

 

 

So, is there scriptural proof of Christ`s identity with man in Rev. 12? YES.

 

1.     Christ was born of the nation of Israel – woman. (v. 1 & 2)

The description of sun, moon and 12 stars, is explained by God as the beginning of the nation of Israel. (Gen. 37: 9)

2.     Christ was the promised Child -  Child. (v. 5) (Isa. 9: 6, 66: 8)

 

3.     Christ was their promised king – rule, His throne. (v. 5) (Matt. 1: 1 – 17,  2 Sam. 7: 16)

 

4.     Christ overcame the accuser – (v. 10) (1 Cor. 2: 7 & 8,  Heb. 14 & 15)

 

Thus, we see that it is Christ, the promised male Child, the promised King who will overcome the accuser and evict him from the Universal realm, the Principalities and Powers. Eventually we know from God`s word that the Old Testament Saints will go there in the city.

 

However, there are still authorities and powers ON the earth that have to be dealt with. And that is the subject of Rev. 16 – 19.

 

I don't like what I read...even though I whole heartedly believe that through the scripture we have inherited that the child that was born was with a divine blessing from God and not from the blessing of the Law even though that he was born in the Law and his mother was from the twelve tribes as the twelve stars must be the twelve Patriarhs of the Nation of Israel...

The empasis is that the woman was drenched with the Sun...If it can help the Sun in Joseph's dream is a reference to the Father...and in this situation the reference can only to God who made that happen...and this why the woman was drenched with the Sun and that cannot be said in the case of Sarah...and not in the case of Elizabeth because even though it was God's intervention they still had a husband..

But in the present situation a husband is not mentioned and the fact that the woman was drenched with the Sun at the time of the birth of the child it gives a profound message that the child to be born was from God and that God was waiting for him to be born as if God was waiting for him to be born and quarding him from any harm as any father would be there  waiting for his child to be born...God was waiting for him to be born because God was his Father.....it is as if it was foretold that she is going to give birth to a male-child...as the words about the unborn child are words that are referring to as a male-child...and as a child with a mission from God..

That he will "Poimeno" the Nations is spoken about him before he was born.. 

***Jesus proved to everyone who was present at his ascension that he was from God that he was the Son of God because he had said I will go to my Father, I have come from him and I will go to him...at that time Jesus broke the hearts of many because they had made other plans for Jesus...

JESUS at his ascension disapointed many people even though He prove to them that he came from above and that's where he was going to the Father when as he was standing he started raising up high in the sky when he was cover in the clouds...deferent that what happened to Elijah who was earthly and God had to transport him to Heaven. 

In Revelation twelve we have something that proves that the child that was born was the Son of God because he was taken up to heaven to the Throne of God...

And we know from scripture that only Jesus the Son of God was wellcome by the Father to sit on his Throne. .

The chosen believers are invited by Jesus to sit on his Throne and not invited by the Father to sit on his Throne that could happen only for his Son...

And we need to be careful when we say that Jesus will rule all the nations with the rode of Iron...and this also was said for the child in Rev twelve..

In the original it says "Poimeno" to Shepherd all the Nations...and that belongs to Jesus who under the New Covenant he died for all the Nations of the world and not just the nation of Israel...

Before only the Nation of Israel had a Shepherd from God...but God in Jesus Christ has provide a Shepherd for the whole world...for anyone who would believe in Jesus from any Nation of the world...

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Your closest friendnt