Who is the Man Child in Revelation 12?

[Vine Abider]

4 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Just my 2₵ worth, but adjusted for inflation, I will give you my $15.79 value. 😊

Things which must shortly take place are in the eye of the speaker and beholder (2 Peter 3:8).

Revelation 1:19 (KJV) Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; [past-present-future]

Generally, we see the past, present, and future written in the first three chapters of Revelation. Beginning in chapter four is the future of John’s Day. Revelation 12:1-17 is what is known as a parenthetical. The parenthetical chapters are 7, 10, 11, 13, 14, and Revelation 12:1-17.

pa•ren•the•sis \pə-ˈren(t)-thə-səs\ noun: plural -the•ses \-ˌsēz\ [Late Latin, from Greek, literally, act of inserting, from parentithenai to insert, from para- + en- en- + tithenai to place—more at do] circa 1550

1          a: an amplifying or explanatory word, phrase, or sentence inserted in a passage from which it is usually set off by punctuation

b: a remark or passage that departs from the theme of a discourse: digression

2:         interlude, interval

3:         one or both of the curved marks ( ) used in writing and printing to enclose a parenthetical expression or to group a symbolic unit in a logical or mathematical expression—par•en•thet•i•cal \ˌper-ən-ˈthe-ti-kəl, pa-rən-\ also par•en•thet•ic \-tik\ adjective—par•en•thet•i•cal•ly \-ti-k(ə-)lē\ adverb^[1]

By removing the parenthetical chapters, I believe the book of Revelation would be in complete chronological order.

Presently Satan and his minions still have limited access to the throne of God to accuse the brethren. Job 1:6 (KJV) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Quote: “Do you not believe it was because of these ones that the devil was ejected from heaven?”

I am not exactly sure of the question here. I believe verse eleven speaks about the martyred Tribulation saints, and these overcame the Devil and Antichrist by the blood of the Lamb and would not budge from their saving faith.

The “age of Grace,” or the church age, has ended. Those that accepted the Lord during this period will have to endure to the end, most likely becoming martyrs.

 

^[1] Merriam-Webster, Inc. Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary. 2003: n. pag. Print.

Thanks and generally agreed on the parenthetical chapters.

If you read chapter 12 through it is all one vision through verse 12.  Verse 11 speaks directly to what happened in verse 9 - "The great dragon was hurled down" . . . "And THEY overcame him by the blood of the Lamb . . ." 

[Dennis1209]

23 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks bro! He was certainly born as a child (as we all were), but I'm wondering how much that label applies to Him now or in Revelation 12 . . .

I do not expect anyone to read this long list of names, titles, and descriptions of our Lord Jesus, but all apply today and forever. IMO

Names of our Lord: JESUS (je’-zus) = Jehovah is salvation; Jehova, my salvation; Savior. CHRIST—anointed, the Greek translation of the Hebrew word rendered “Messiah” (q.v.), the official title of our Lord, occurring five hundred and fourteen times in the New Testament. It denotes that he was anointed or consecrated to his great redemptive work as Prophet, Priest, and King of his people. He is Jesus the Christ (Acts 17:3; 18:5; Matt. 22:42), the Anointed One. He is thus spoken of by Isaiah (61:1), and by Daniel (9:24–26), who styles him “Messiah the Prince.”

 Titles and Descriptions of our Lord Jesus: There are nearly three hundred descriptive titles for Jesus, some are repeated many times:

 Advocate 1 John 2:1; Almighty (57); Revelation 1:8; Alpha and Omega; Revelation 1:8; 21:6; 22:13; Altogether Lovely; Song of Solomon 5:16; Amen Revelation 3:14; Ancient of Days Daniel 7:22; Angel of His Presence; Isaiah 63:9; Anointed Psalm 2:2; Apostle Hebrews 3:1; Apple Tree Song of Solomon 2:3; Approved of God Acts 2:22; Author of Our Faith Hebrews 12:2; Author of Salvation Hebrews 5:9; Babe Luke 2:16; Beginning of Creation of God Revelation 3:14; Beginning and Ending Revelation 1:8; 21:6; 22:13; Bishop of Souls 1 Peter 2:25; Branch Zechariah 6:12; Isaiah 11:1; Branch of Righteousness Jeremiah 33:15; Bread of Life John 6:35; Bridegroom Matthew 9:15; John 3:29; Bright and Morning Star Revelation 22:16; Brightness of His Glory Hebrews 1:3; Buckler Psalm 18:2; Builder Matthew 16:18; Bundle of Myrrh Song of Solomon 1:13; Captain of Our Salvation Hebrews 2:10; Captain of the Lord’s Host Joshua 5:15; Carpenter, Son of Mary Mark 6:3; Carpenter’s Son Matthew 13:55; Chief Shepherd 1 Peter 5:4; Chief Cornerstone 1 Peter 2:6; Ephesians 2:20; Chief Shepherd 1 Peter 5:4; Chiefest Among Ten Thousand Song of Solomon 5:10; Child Luke 2:40; Chosen of God Luke 23:35; Christ Jesus My Lord Philippians 3:8; Christ of God Luke 9:20; Christ the Lord Luke 2:11; Christ; Son of the Living God Matthew 16:16; Cluster of Camphire Song of Solomon 1:14; Consolation of Israel Luke 2:25; Counselor Isaiah 9:6; Covenant of the People Isaiah 42:6; Covert from Tempest Isaiah 32:2; Creator of Israel Isaiah 43:15; Day Star 2 Peter 1:19; Daysman Job 9:33; Dayspring Luke 1:78; Deliverer Psalm 18:2; Romans 11:26; Desire of all Nations Haggai 2:7; Dew Hosea 14:5; Door John 10:7, 9; Emmanuel Matthew 1:23; End of the Law Romans 10:4; Ensign of the People Isaiah 11:10; Everlasting Father Isaiah 9:6; Express Image of His Person Hebrews 1:3; Faithful and True Witness Revelation 3:14; Faithful and True Revelation 19:11; Faithful Witness Revelation 1:5; Finisher of Our Faith Hebrews 12:2; First Begotten of the Dead Revelation 1:5; First and the Last Revelation 22:13; Firstborn of Every Creature Colossians 1:15; Firstborn Romans 8:29; Firstborn From the Dead Colossians 1:18; Firstfruits 1 Corinthians 15:20; Forerunner Hebrews 6:20; Fortress Psalm 18:2; Foundation Isaiah 28:16; 1 Corinthians 3:11; Fountain Opened (for sin) Zechariah 13:1; Fountain of Living Waters Jeremiah 2:13; Friend of Publicans and Sinners Luke 7:34; Fruit of the Womb Luke 1:42; Galilaean (KJV) Luke 23:6; Glory of Thy People Israel Luke 2:32; God of the Whole Earth Isaiah 54:5; Good Shepherd John 10:11; Good Master Matthew 19:16, 17; Mark 10:17; Governor of Nations Psalm 22:28; Governor Matthew 2:6;

 

Great Jeremiah 32:18; Greater Than Solomon Matthew 12:42; Guide Psalm 48:14; Head of the Body; the Church Colossians 1:18; Head of the Church Ephesians 5:23; Head of the Corner 1 Peter 2:7; Matthew 21:42; Head of All Principality and Power Colossians 2:10; Head of Every Man 1 Corinthians 11:3; Healer Matthew 14:14; Heir of All Things Hebrews 1:2; Helper Hebrews 13:6; Hiding Place Isaiah 32:2; High Priest Hebrews 3:1; 6:20; 7:26; High Priest Over the House of God Hebrews 10:21; High Tower Psalm 18:2; Higher Than the Heavens Hebrews 7:26; Holy Child Jesus Acts 4:27; Holy One Psalm 16:10; Isaiah 43:15; Holy One of Israel (31) Isaiah 41:14; 54:5; Holy One of God Luke 4:34; Mark 1:24; Horn of My Salvation Psalm 18:2; Horn of Salvation Luke 1:69; Hope, My Psalm 71:5; I AM John 8:58; Image of Invisible God Colossians 1:15; Immanuel Isaiah 7:14; Immortal 1 Timothy 1:17; Intercessor Hebrews 7:25; Invisible 1 Timothy 1:17; Jesus (977) Matthew 1:21; Jesus is the Lord 1 Corinthians 12:3; Jesus Christ Our Savior Titus 3:6; Jesus of Nazareth (17) Luke 4:34; Jew John 4:9; Judge of the Quick and the Dead Acts 10:42; Judge of Israel Micah 5:1; Just One Acts 3:14; Just Man Matthew 27:19; Justifier Romans 3:26; King Matthew 21:5; King of Glory Psalm 24:8; King of the Jews (18) John 18:39; 19:3; King of Israel John 1:49; King of Saints Revelation 15:3; King of kings (6) 1 Timothy 3:15; Revelation 17:14; King Eternal 1 Timothy 1:17; Lamb Revelation 5:6; 15:3; 17:14; Lamb Slain Revelation 13:8; Lamb Without Blemish and Spot 1 Peter 1:19; Lamb of God John 1:29; Last Adam 1 Corinthians 15:45; Lawgiver James 4:12; Leader and Commander of the People Isaiah 55:4; Life John 11:25; Lifter of My Head Psalm 3:3; Light of Men John 1:4; Light to Lighten the Gentiles Luke 2:32; Light for the Gentiles Isaiah 42:6; Acts 13:47; Light of the World John 8:12; Lily of the Valley Song of Solomon 2:1; Lion of the Tribe of Judah Revelation 5:5; Living Bread John 6:51; Living Stone 1 Peter 2:4; Lord (1131); LORD (6471) Luke 24:3; Acts 2:36; Lord and Christ Acts 2:36; Lord Both of the Dead and Living Romans 14:9; Lord From Heaven 1 Corinthians 15:47; Lord God Almighty Revelation 15:3; Lord of the Harvest Matthew 9:38; Lord of the Sabbath Luke 6:5; Lord of Hosts Isaiah 54:5; Jeremiah 32:18; Lord of Lords 1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 19:16; Lord Our Righteousness Jeremiah 23:6; Love 1 John 4:16; Lowly Zechariah 9:9; Man of Sorrows Isaiah 53:3; Manna John 6:57–58; Master (57) Matthew 22:24; John 11:28; Master in Heaven Colossians 4:1; Mediator 1 Timothy 2:5; Merciful, Faithful High Priest Hebrews 2:17; Messenger Malachi 3:1; Messiah Daniel 9:25, 26; Messias (the Christ) John 1:41; Mighty God Isaiah 9:6; Jeremiah 32:18; Mine Elect Isaiah 42:1; Minister of the Circumcision Romans 15:8; Minister of Sanctuary Hebrews 8:2; My Beloved Song of Solomon 2:8; Matthew 12:18; My Beloved Son Matthew 17:5; My Strong Habitation Psalm 71:3; Nail Isaiah 22:23, 25; Name Above Every Name Philippians 2:9; Nazarene Matthew 2:23; New and Living Way Hebrews 10:20; Offering; a Sacrifice to God Ephesians 5:2; One Shepherd John 10:16; One That Bringeth Good Tidings Isaiah 41:27; Only Begotten of Father John 1:14; Only Wise God 1 Timothy 1:17;

Our Lord Jesus Christ (55) Galatians 1:3; Our Peace Ephesians 2:14; Overcomer Revelation 17:14; Passover 1 Corinthians 5:7; Potentate 1 Timothy 6:15; Potter Romans 9:21; Power and Wisdom of God 1 Corinthians 1:24; Precious Corner Stone Isaiah 28:16; Precious 1 Peter 2:7; Priest Hebrews 5:10; 7:17; Prince Daniel 9:25; Acts 5:31; Prince of Life Acts 3:15; Prince of Peace Isaiah 9:6; Prince of the Kings of Earth Revelation 1:5; Prophet John 4:19; 7:40; Deuteronomy 18:18; Prophet of Nazareth Matthew 21:11; Propitiation for Our Sins 1 John 2:2; Purifier of Silver Malachi 3:3; Quickening Spirit 1 Corinthians 15:45; Rabbi; Son of God John 1:49; Reconciler 2 Corinthians 5:19; Redeemer Job 19:25; Isaiah 41:14; 54:5; Refiner Malachi 3:3; Resurrection John 11:25; Reward, Exceeding Great Genesis 15:1; Rewarder Hebrews 11:6; Righteous 1 John 2:1; Righteous Branch Jeremiah 23:5; Righteous Man Luke 23:47; Righteous Servant Isaiah 53:11; Rock Psalm 18:2; 28:1; 1 Corinthians 10:4; Rock of Offense 1 Peter 2:8; Root of David Revelation 5:5; 22:16; Root of Jesse Isaiah 11:10; Romans 15:12; Root Out of Dry Ground Isaiah 53:2; Rose of Sharon Song of Solomon 2:1; Salvation Luke 2:30; Samaritan John 8:48; Savior (Saviour, KJV) (29) Luke 2:11; Acts 5:31; Savior (Saviour, KJV) of the World John 4:42; 1 John 4:14; Scepter of Israel Numbers 24:17; Second Man 1 Corinthians 15:47; Seed of the Woman Genesis 3:14, 15; Servant Isaiah 42:1; Philippians 2:7; Shadow from heat Isaiah 25:4; Shepherd Hebrews 13:20; 1 Peter 2:25; Shield, Thy Genesis 15:1; Shiloh (rest, tranquility) Genesis 49:10; Son of David Matthew 9:27; Son of God (48) Mark 1:1; Son of the Highest Luke 1:32; Son of Joseph John 6:42; Son of Man Matthew 9:6; Mark 14:62; John 6:27; Son of the Blessed Mark 14:61; Son of the Living God Matthew 16:16; Star Out of Jacob Numbers 24:17; Stem of Jesse Isaiah 11:1; Stone Isaiah 28:16; Matthew 21:42; Stone Cut Without Hands Daniel 2:34, 35; Stone of Stumbling 1 Peter 2:8; Stranger in Jerusalem Luke 24:18; Strength Psalm 18:2; Stronghold (in the day of trouble) Nahum 1:7; Sun of Righteousness Malachi 4:2; Sure Foundation Isaiah 28:16; Surety of a Better Testament; Hebrews 7:22; Teacher From God John 3:2; Tender Plant Isaiah 53:2; Testator Hebrews 9:16, 17; The Child Jesus Luke 2:27; The Christ (19) Mark 14:61; The Lord’s Christ Luke 2:26; The Man John 19:5; The Man, Christ Jesus 1 Timothy 2:5; The Word John 1:1; 1:14; Thine Husband Isaiah 54:5; Thy Maker Isaiah 54:5; Thy Seed Galatians 3:16; Tree of life Genesis 2:9; Tried Stone Isaiah 28:16; True God and Eternal Life 1 John 5:20; True Vine John 15:1; True Light John 1:9; Truth John 14:6; Vine John 15:5; Voice Genesis 3:8; Way John 14:6; Way of Holiness Isaiah 35:8; Wonderful Isaiah 9:6; Young Child Matthew 2:11; Your King Isaiah 43:15.

 

 

[Michael37]

5 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Also, why would this chapter suddenly look backward upon the birth of Jesus, when the book of Revelation is stated to be forward looking in nature?

The clue is in the name REVELATION, initially given to John for him to write for the seven churches of Asia

In order to reveal things which must come to pass various portions of the overall vision are CONTEXT.

They include the past and the present to reveal what will be in the future.

Eternity has no source other than the Omnipresence of God.

Rev 1:4  John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

[Dennis1209]

24 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks and generally agreed on the parenthetical chapters.

If you read chapter 12 through it is all one vision through verse 12.  Verse 11 speaks directly to what happened in verse 9 - "The great dragon was hurled down" . . . "And THEY overcame him by the blood of the Lamb . . ." 

I may be incorrect in my view on this, but it is my current understanding.

Revelation 12:4 (KJV) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. [emphasis added]

The child can be none other than the promised Messiah and the virgin birth. The expulsion from heaven appears to have occurred shortly before the birth of Jesus.

Revelation 12:9 (KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

As mentioned before, Revelation 12:1-17 is parenthetical. I believe this is returning to the virgin birth, Jesus coming through Jewish lineage (the woman). Satan and his minions were angry and ready. They wanted to kill Jesus and tried from His birth until His crucifixion. Herod was the first to kill all two-year-olds and under to get the right One.

At this time, it appears Satan and his followers were expelled from heaven, and Satan was allowed to continue to accuse the brethren, as Job illustrates.

Looking at it from this view makes the most sense to an old geezer like me.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

So @Marathoner @Dennis1209 @Selah7 @R. Hartono @Marilyn C let's look at what I stated in the opening post:

1. Believers are also told they will rule the nations with an iron rod (Rev 2:27) - so we can't say this only applies to Jesus, right?

2. In verse 11 of Rev 12 it says "and THEY overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb," etc.  Do you not believe it was because of these ones that the devil was ejected from heaven? 

Also, why would this chapter suddenly look backward upon the birth of Jesus, when the book of Revelation is stated to be forward looking in nature? "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place." (Rev 1:1)

I'm with you. For the Man-Child to be our Lord Jesus, scripture has to be ignored.

Our Lord Jesus was not born to a "sign". Mary was real
Our Lord Jesus was not was not raptured at birth
Our Lord Jesus was firstborn to Mary. The Woman in Revelation 12 has other seed before the Man-Child because "they remain"
Our Lord Jesus was not raptured to escape the Dragon. He face him fully from Gethsemane onward
Our Lord Jesus did not displace Satan when He ascended. Satan is still the "prince of the power of the air"

For Jesus to be the Man-Child the Woman had to be Mary
Mary was not in heaven
Mary is not crowned before the birth of Jesus
Mary is not clothed with the sun
Mary never has the moon under her feet
Mary never flees to the wilderness
Mary flees to Egypt but not for 1260 days
Mary had Jesus as firstborn. There could therefore be no *remnant" of her seed when Jesus was born

For those who claim that the Woman is Israel must explain ...
How Israel was in heaven
How Israel is a "sign in heaven"
How Israel travailed in birth
How Israel is crowned with stars before Jesus is born
How Israel is clothed with the sun
How Israel, God's earthly people, have the moon under its feet
How Israel was driven into the wilderness AFTER Jesus was born
How Israel brought forth seed "that keep the commandments of God"
How Israel has seed that "has the testimony of Jesus Christ"
How Israel is one Woman when they came from four women and were dived into two nations
How Israel is helped by the earth in the wilderness when God supplied her

But if the Man-Child is the Overcomers, then there are no obstacles
The Man-Child is to rule the Nations
The Man-Child needed the blood of the Lamb
The Man-Child is raptured when Satan has but a little time (around 7 years)
The Man-Child is the last seed of the woman
The only other "Mother" of those who keep the commandments of God and who have the testimony of Jesus is New Jerusalem (Gal.4.26)
The only other "Mother" who is at the same time heavenly but on earth is New Jerusalem (Rev.21)
The only other Mother who has the number of 12 is New Jerusalem
The only other Mother who is crowned is New Jerusalem (Rev.22:5)
The Woman is clothed with the sun. Jesus is the "sun of righteousness". New Jerusalem has "the glory of God"

Now, only TWO entities will rule the nations with a rod of iron - EITHER Jesus, OR The Overcomers (Rev.2:27, 19:15). There is not one indication that it is Jesus in Revelation 12. All difficulties disappear if it is the Overcomers.

[Marathoner]

8 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

So @Marathoner @Dennis1209 @Selah7 @R. Hartono @Marilyn C let's look at what I stated in the opening post:

1. Believers are also told they will rule the nations with an iron rod (Rev 2:27) - so we can't say this only applies to Jesus, right?

2. In verse 11 of Rev 12 it says "and THEY overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb," etc.  Do you not believe it was because of these ones that the devil was ejected from heaven? 

Also, why would this chapter suddenly look backward upon the birth of Jesus, when the book of Revelation is stated to be forward looking in nature? "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place." (Rev 1:1)

I answered the question regarding where the Son of Man is referred to as a child, and that sums up my involvement here. Perhaps the underlying difficulty rests in how so many interpret what they read in the Revelation of Jesus Christ according to a specific eschatological paradigm. That paradigm dictates understanding, yes? 

Not all portions of Revelation are eschatological, my friend. Ah, but then I shall leave you all to it. Take care, brother.  

[R. Hartono]

8 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

So @Marathoner@Dennis1209 @Selah7 @R. Hartono @Marilyn C

Also, why would this chapter suddenly look backward upon the birth of Jesus, when the book of Revelation is stated to be forward looking in nature? "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place." (Rev 1:1)

It doesnt look backward but it is related to the past origin of the coming Manchild (Jesus), otherwise the Book of Revelation wont be completed.

Edited April 13, 2023 by R. Hartono

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good morning, Marilyn C,

Accurate and well-written post. I want to discuss one paragraph, particularly a little more, having a couple of questions and a comment or two, ten, or a hundred. 😊

"We are now shown from where the deliverer would come. In Genesis 3: 15 God foretold that the `seed,` of woman would crush the serpent, (Satan). The deliverer would come as a seed, not a tree, meaning not fully grown. He would also come through God's special nation of Israel. This is shown by the symbols `sun, moon and stars,` representing Jacob, Rachael and their 12 sons, the tribes of Israel."  (Gen. 37: 9)

Genesis 3:15 (KJV) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. [emphasis added]

Genesis 3:15 is the first prophecy of the Bible. Generally, something mentioned first in theology, especially in a list of things, is the most important, and special attention should be applied.

Enmity:  : איב; < *ʾaibā, BL 590g; MHb. enmity Gn 3:15 Ezk 25:15 35:5, hostile disposition Nu 35:21f; —cj. Ezr 3:3 (בְּאֵ׳ despite the enmity, Rudolph). †^[1]

We agree on the meaning of this prophecy, and to paraphrase to my way of thinking, two opposing kingdoms: And I (Jesus) will put a hostile disposition between thee (kingdom of Satan) and the woman (kingdom of Israel) in which the Messiah would come.

Not one but both kingdoms have "seed." Seed: semen, children; offspring, descendants, families. I can take this to mean that Israel will increase in descendants and the kingdom "thee" (Satan).

We see how the kingdom of Israel grew, was fruitful, and multiplied; what about the kingdom of darkness? I believe just a bit later, after the first biblical prophecy, we get an answer in Genesis 6:1-4. The common retort is always:

Mark 12:25 (KJV) For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. [Keyword, heaven]

If “which are in heaven” were left out, it would support a different view of my thinking.

The two-thirds of the holy angels that remained loyal to God are innumerable and do not need to procreate. Satan wants to even the military odds a bit for the final battle. An angel's power is unimaginable, and they can transform themselves. It does not say angels cannot procreate with humanity; it identifies where they do not, in heaven.

The lowest rung in the hierarchy of the evil spiritual realm, demons, can physically indwell human flesh. What is the primary occultic practice performed in rituals historically? What is the goal of this practice?

I am nitpicking here, but why do you think the "moon" represents Rachael? Bilhah or Leah—Rachel, Joseph's mother, was already deceased, making Bilhah, Rachel's servant, his stepmother (v. 10), and Leah the chief wife.

As always, discussing the fine details with you is a pleasure. Yes, I know, I am over-opinionated. LOL

 

---

^[1] Koehler, Ludwig et al. The Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament 1994–2000: 39. Print.

Hi Dennis,

Always good to discuss with you, bro. Questions are a part of the answer for they stimulate looking more into God`s word. So...

1. The two seed. One is the Lord, (Seed) and the other is of Satan. 

Now, God made angels individually, they were not procreated, no parents, children etc. They are spirit beings (Heb. 1: 14) who can appear as men but they do not have flesh and blood and sexual organs. The Nephilim were giants, bullies. That is all.

Satan`s seed - `You are of your father the devil,...` (John 8: 44)

 As to `kingdoms,` the word rule is more appropriate rather than kingdom, which can give the picture of land. God made the world and all in it and NEVER gave it away. What is being addressed is rebellious rulership.

2. God is dealing with the lineage of Israel that He requires, not man. Thus, Jacob and Rachael, (a daughter of Laban his mother`s brother, Gen. 28: 2, note Esau did not do this. (Gen. 28: 8 & 9). 

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

So @Marathoner @Dennis1209 @Selah7 @R. Hartono @Marilyn C let's look at what I stated in the opening post:

1. Believers are also told they will rule the nations with an iron rod (Rev 2:27) - so we can't say this only applies to Jesus, right?

2. In verse 11 of Rev 12 it says "and THEY overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb," etc.  Do you not believe it was because of these ones that the devil was ejected from heaven? 

Also, why would this chapter suddenly look backward upon the birth of Jesus, when the book of Revelation is stated to be forward looking in nature? "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place." (Rev 1:1)

Hi VA,

Great questions to promote more insight into God`s word. Here is what I see -

1. `The Revelation of Jesus Christ ......` that is what is being addressed. That is what is unfolding and finds its `due accomplishment.` (Knox) We see the first unfolding as Christ the Head of the Body, the second, Christ as Heir of the World, third, Christ as the Mediator, and fourth, Christ as the Judge. It is the unveiling that `must shortly take place.`

 

2. Rev. 12 is about the scriptural proof of who the deliverer is and who the adversary is. 

The Body of Christ is of the order of Melchisedek, which does not have or need a lineage. (Heb. 6: 20  -  7: 1 - 3) We are a heavenly company.

Israel however is an earthly company with an earthly purpose. Thus, the need for the correct lineage. There are requirements for their king, Messiah and deliverer. That is why there is a (past) lineage in Matt. 1: 1. He also had to be one of the brethren of Israel, of the tribe of Judah and house of David. He also had to fulfill the requirements of Deut. 17: 15 - 20 which are quite detailed. 

Thus, we read of Christ the deliverer`s lineage and where He is - `to His throne, ` in Rev. 12.

As to the believers they are NOT part of the Lord`s lineage, and it is not their lineage which they don`t need. 

 

3. Satan ejected from the lower heavens. Satan has a 4 part strategy - 

The graphic battle of the ages unfolds as Satan unleashes his demonic strategies to get rid of the people of Israel. Each of Satan`s names represent his demonic plan –

The serpent of old who deludes.

Satan, who deceives.

The devil who robs, kills & destroys.

The dragon, who devours.

Christ is the mighty victor against the enemy in all those areas. The focus is ALWAYS the Lord and the unveiling, unfolding of who He is - Head, Heir, Mediator, (deliverer) and Judge. Keep Him in mind and God`s word becomes clear. 

It is because Christ prevailed (Rev. 5: 5) and won the Victory that the enemy is cast down to the earth, (his power limited) and then finally in God`s time Satan and his Global Government is exposed and dealt with.

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

On 4/11/2023 at 2:03 PM, Vine Abider said:

(FYI: I searched for this specific topic, and found threads with various comments on the subject, but no specific thread addressing the question of who the man-child is.)

In Revelation 12 the woman gives birth to a man-child. Traditionally it seems many thought Jesus was this man-child for a couple reasons. One reason is because it says in verse 5 that he "is destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron" and it similarly says this of Christ in Psalm 2:9.  However, it is also promised by Jesus that overcoming saints will also "rule the nations with a rod of iron" in Rev 2:27.

So Satan is cast down as a result of this man-child being caught up into heaven, and later in the chapter it says, "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they loved not their (soul) lives unto death." (verse 11)  Then it says in the next verse, "Therefore the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night." (verse 10)

And there are other things in Rev 12 that don't line-up well with saying Jesus is this man-child, and also don't line-up that Mary is the woman here . . . (one thing: where specifically is Jesus now called a "child"?)

So who do you think this man-child is and what supports your thinking?

 

The narrative in Revelation chapter twelve is about events that have taken place...describes events after the fact.

Events that we should know about them...

We know about the birth of Jesus Christ...

We know about the promises made to the children of God to the twelve tribes of Israel. 

We know that they were looking forwards to him being born from their nation from some woman from their Nation...

So the Nation of Israel was looking forwards to the promise of God to make that happen...

In the the vision at the time of the woman giving birth that the baby to be born was the one the twelve tribes of Israel were looking forwards to as they are watching their daughter giving birth to the promise one as they are depicted as the twelve stars..and are waiting for the woman their daughter to give birth to the Promise Son..

Also God who made that happen was waiting for the woman to give birth to the special baby and the woman was drenched in the light of God depicted as the brighter light...of all lights.  

Both the Nation of Israel and God are depicted waiting to witness the birth of the baby...

(a simple note, there is no reference to a Father being from any one of the twelve tribes.  

There is a reference that the woman was their daughter..

And that the child was from God....

Not only because we have the presence of God waiting for his Son to be born from a woman...

But we also have the witness that God took his Son to Heaven to be with him...

The ascension Jesus Christ. 

There is a lot to let us know that the child grew and he died as an adult and the kind of his death...

When there is the reference to the other children born to the woman afterwards without any reference that they were born from God in the same way as the special baby..

those were children born through their earthly fathers...children born not in the same way as the first child of the woman but the reference is made that they are the children of the blood of the Lamb and their testimony about Jesus Christ. 

They were the children born to God by faith in Jesus Christ..

This is letting us know that the promise in Genesis 3: has come to fulfillment that the seed of the woman which is Jesus was put to death and at that time the Dragon lost his authority over the mankind...

They over came him, they told him or they understand that the Dragon cannot have them because they are under the blood of Jesus and that Jesus is the Son of God and that they are the children of God...and he cannot do anything about it...

No one is greater than his Master...

God only invited Jesus to sit on the Throne with him and on his right. 

Only his Son, his only Son..

We are his children because of Jesus Christ...because Jesus is his Son...

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Your closest friendnt