Who is the Man Child in Revelation 12?

[AdHoc]

17 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

@Your closest friendnt @Dennis1209 @Michael37 @Marathoner @Marilyn C @R. Hartono I would encourage each of you to look at the section @AdHoc presents that most closely fits the particular view you hold on this matter, and take maybe just a couple of the points listed and see.

To my dear brothers and sisters in the Lord, thank you for the many replies. What I will now propose may seem sarcastic. Please cast that thought aside. It is with the greatest respect that I now propose a counter argument. And what I hope to provoke is your honesty. Here is a catalog of your understanding of the Woman of Revelation 12. I reiterate it because except for my esteemed sister Marilyn C, you have not entered my arguments. No-one was willing to answer my simple questions. There is a reason for that, but I leave it for you to answer yourself

Scripture says that the Woman is a "sign". You all, except for Marilyn C, say that this "sign" is Israel. I challenge you to show me just once in the Bible where the Nation of Israel is not a nation but a "sign". The logical end of saying that a "sign" gave birth to the Savior of the World is an absurdity. And Chapter 4 says that John is shown "things that must still come to pass". That would put the birth of Jesus, which was about 98 years prior to john seeing this sign, IN THE FUTURE. It is all pure private interpretation. There is no identical act or picture in the Bible.

Now, scripture says that this "sign" is in heaven. This is doubly confirmed by the Dragon, who is not yet cast out of heaven, standing before her to devour the Man-child. My question, that no-one attempted to answer, is; when was the Nation of Israel ever in heaven? I will answer for you. Israel has no recorded visit or sojourn in heaven.

To the  argument that Genesis 37 explains the "sign" is fraught with difficulties. To make them the same defies plain English.

In Gen.37 the stars are men. Eleven, far from reigning, will soon bow down to the twelfth. The sun is a man who is named "crook" (Jacob) and the moon an idol-stealing woman (Rachel - see Gen.31). To transfer this clear meaning of men to "clothing" and a "footstool" is pure poetic license with the Words of God. "Clothing" is explained by multiple scriptures as ones works, and placing anything under one's feet is a token of lording a military victory over it and then ruling it

To my esteemed sister Marilyn C, your counter argument was just semantics. If scripture says that the moon is under her feet and I say that she placed her feet on the moon, what then is the great failure? But you establish the woman as Mary. So I ask, most respectfully, when was Mary in heaven and heavily pregnant with Jesus? And in all the Bible, when was Mary in heaven a "sign"?

Then, for those who entertain this understanding, if Jesus is born and caught up to the throne in heaven, how could offspring of the Woman REMAIN if Jesus was firstborn? And if REMAINING seed of the woman has the testimony of Jesus Christ, where is it recorded that Mary brought forth the believers? Added to this,when and where is it recorded that Mary must flee to the wilderness and be helped by the earth for 1260 days?

I'll stop here and wait an answer. I grant that you all hold the majority view, but I respectfully ask you to give the reasons via sustained logical exegesis. 30 years ago I also struggled through this problem and it took me years to satisfactorily answer this Chapter. The Book of Revelation concerns the Revelation of Jesus to men on earth - His second coming in glory and power. The catching up of the Man-Child causes the Dragon to be displaced from heaven. Did this happen when Jesus was caught up nearly 2,000 years ago? Or does it happen when the Dragon has only a short while left? Is the Man-Child produced 2,000 years ago, or is he produced when the Dragon's time in heaven is OVER? Is not the 1260 days, the 42 months, the time, times and half a time speak of the duration of the Great Tribulation?

[Vine Abider]

9 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Which Christians already on the Throne ? Nobody is on the Throne with Jesus now even Abraham is awaiting rapture in paradeiso. 

 

Didn't you ask when Christians are caught up to the throne? That verse in Rev 3:21 shows Christians will be seated with Christ there: "To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne."

And @Marilyn C @Marathoner @Selah

Here's where I think the mystery of the new covenant comes to full fruition, and what many of us have a hard time seeing:  That is, the union of Christ IN us now!  So His victories are our victories.  As it says in 1 Cor 6:17, "He that is joined to the Lord are one spirit with Him!" United with Him in death; united with Him in resurrection;  United with Him in life!  All things are to us (the church) as He promises over and over, His "boots on the ground."

If we see that now His operation is so much about doing it THROUGH US, then thinking the man-child is Him doing this conquering through US is much easier to see.

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Vine Abider
typo

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, Selah7 said:

'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'—as I also have received from My Father;

- Revelation 2:27 (NKJV)

In the verse above, I don’t see that the overcoming saints will “also rule the nations with a rod of iron.”  It is Christ who will do this.

s e l a h

The verse just prior says: "And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations."  This is the "he" (overcomers) being referred to in verse 27 as ruling with an iron rod.

CC: @Dennis1209

Edited April 14, 2023 by Vine Abider

[Vine Abider]

11 hours ago, Marathoner said:

It's ever so clear that the man child, who was caught up to heaven, is not the one who overcomes the accuser of the brethren (brothers and sisters) with the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. 

The man child is caught up to heaven... the devil is thrown down to the earth... and the voice from heaven declares that the kingdom of Christ has now come, and how those who were accused overcame their accuser because of the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony.

Context is important, my friend. 

How do you explain these words: "And THEY OVERCAME him"?  Yes, they did it by the "blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony," but THEY OVERCAME, they did it using what the Lord gave them.  (Like David's faith using that little stone . . .)

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

How do you explain these words: "And THEY OVERCAME him"?  Yes, they did it by the "blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony," but THEY OVERCAME, they did it using what the Lord gave them.  (Like David's faith using that little stone . . .)

The accused overcame their accuser because of the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, loving not their lives even unto death. 

What's left to explain, my friend? I'm wondering how you're connecting the brethren to the male child who was caught up to God and His throne. The male child caught up to God and His throne is a reference to the Son of Man and His ascension. The Son of Man ascended to heaven and sits with the Father upon His throne:

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19 NASB) 

The book of Revelation is rich with symbolic language and imagery. As such, we read about signs being witnessed. A measure of some of these visions had already come to pass (the ascension of the Lord, for example); some were in progress and continue to unfold (overcoming our accuser); and as we all know, some portions await fulfillment. 

I don't read passages of scripture according to "front-loaded" paradigms or, to couch that differently, according to what I believe beforehand. It seems to me that the only way to arrive at the meaning you insist is to accept what you claim first, and then force what you believe into the text. That's not sound exegesis, brother. 

I'm also wondering why you invited others to participate in this topic, soliciting our opinions and such, only to argue against those who don't buy what you're selling? You haven't furnished any reason to accept your interpretation of these passages from Revelation 12. I'm done here.  

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Marathoner
typo

[Vine Abider]

5 hours ago, Marathoner said:

The accused overcame their accuser because of the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, loving not their lives even unto death. 

What's left to explain, my friend? I'm wondering how you're connecting the brethren to the male child who was caught up to God and His throne. The male child caught up to God and His throne is a reference to the Son of Man and His ascension. The Son of Man ascended to heaven and sits with the Father upon His throne:

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19 NASB) 

The book of Revelation is rich with symbolic language and imagery. As such, we read about signs being witnessed. A measure of some of these visions had already come to pass (the ascension of the Lord, for example); some were in progress and continue to unfold (overcoming our accuser); and as we all know, some portions await fulfillment. 

I don't read passages of scripture according to "front-loaded" paradigms or, to couch that differently, according to what I believe beforehand. It seems to me that the only way to arrive at the meaning you insist is to accept what you claim first, and then force what you believe into the text. That's not sound exegesis, brother. 

I'm also wondering why you invited others to participate in this topic, soliciting our opinions and such, only to argue against those who don't buy what you're selling? You haven't furnished any reason to accept your interpretation of these passages from Revelation 12. I'm done here.  

 

Ad Hoc went into great detail and I urge you to consider some of the things he presents . . . just looking further into a couple of them should give you pause regarding your paradigm bro.

And I get we all have these paradigms, and I too get uncomfortable when someone presents what seems to go against them.  It's a tough thing, and if you want to bow-out, I understand.

Bottom-line is He's in us, transforming us into His image and will show us all we need in His good timing!  These kinds of discussions are just interesting knowledge until He sheds the light in us on the specifics.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Vine Abider
typo

[Selah7]

Well I am now totally confused about the topic we’re trying to discuss.  What is it?  It started out with …

Who is the Man Child in Revelation 12?

I still say it’s a simple reference to the first advent of Christ. 

s e l a h

[Dennis1209]

6 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

The verse just prior says: "And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations."  This is the "he" (overcomers) being referred to in verse 27 as ruling with an iron rod.

CC: @Dennis1209

²⁶ And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: ²⁷ And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. [emphasis mine]

We may disagree on this, but I want to clarify my thoughts. I believe the "he" is the tribulation saint keeping His works. I suspect this involves a religion with 1.4 billion followers thus far, and collectively as a religion, entering the Tribulation.

Works ~ of the deeds of humans, exhibiting a consistent moral character, referred to collectively as τὰ ἔργα (Ps 105:35; Job 11:11; Jon 3:10) J 3:20 f; 7:7; Js 3:13; 1J 3:12; Rv 2:2, 19; 3:1, 8, 15. ^[1]

The qualifier is unto the end of his or her life or the end of the Tribulation. In this instance, the promise is not made to the true church or Israel. But to those that overcome unto the end, written to the church of Thyatira.

He that overcomes what or who? The church at Thyatira is in focus here, and I suspect this reference addresses all seven churches in general and the Catholic Church in particular. Why? See my note below:

THYATIRA – From 590 - 1500’s. Thyatira (thi-a-ti’-rah) = High tower; a castle (cathedrals); feminine oppression; odor of affliction. The period was the dark ages when owning a personal Bible was punishable by death. The worship of Mary, human works, rituals, ceremonies, and Mass began. The Gospel was added to (see Rev. 22:18). A significant change in the church structure with Pope, cardinals, bishops, and priests. They were (and are) leading people astray from divine authority to man. The system oppresses and is over the laity. Notice there is no call to repent, only judgment remains, and they will go into the Great Tribulation. 

 

^[1] Arndt, William et al. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature 2000: 390. Print.

[Michael37]

On 4/14/2023 at 8:36 AM, Vine Abider said:

If chapter 12 is read with the understanding that the man-child is the overcoming ones who will "rule the nations with an iron rod," then things line up perfectly.

This unfortunate scenario falls short in respect of who the woman who gives birth to the man-child is

The woman simply cannot be "the church" . . .  giving birth to itself.

2Co 11:2  For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

[Vine Abider]

35 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

This unfortunate scenario falls short in respect of who the woman who gives birth to the man-child is

The woman simply cannot be "the church" . . .  giving birth to itself.

2Co 11:2  For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

I see the woman made up of all God's people - those who have had faith in Him as depicted in both old and new testaments.  The man-child would be the stronger part .  . . . the ones who overcome.