What About Those In Non-Christian Lands Who Have Never Heard The Gospel?

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, other one said:

that's what free will is all about.   It's not that we are stronger than God, but that he gives us permission to say no.   He's looking for people who will be loyal to him and not rebel as Lucifer did.

Salvation is either by God’s choice or it is not. Can’t have it both ways.

[other one]

8 minutes ago, Alive said:

Salvation is either by God’s choice or it is not. Can’t have it both ways.

It is by his choice, but you can say no.   If not, what's this all about?  If it's his choice and we have no input, then none of this even matters.  He either made us for heaven or hell from the start.....   It would be kind of terrible to think God could create anything just to be punished forever without any choice or input on our side of things.

I don't think I could believe he made people just to burn them forever.

[Neighbor]

4 minutes ago, Alive said:

Salvation is either by God’s choice or it is not. Can’t have it both ways.

Well I claim to be a Freewill Calvinist. For though I did not want I received. I did not want God, any god. Yet I received because Jesus is faithful to answer prayer. He interceded with His Father to answer prayers of others for my own salvation. God the Holy Spirit then confronted me and I had no choice but to concede. I of my own freewill succumbed, bowed a knee to Jesus, It was all foreknown and predestined to happen; irresistible grace. Fact  it happened  even before I was, as I fight a battle that has already been won.

[Neighbor]

1 minute ago, other one said:

It would be kind of terrible to think God could create anything just to be punished forever without any choice or input on our side of things.

 

The other side of that particular coin is; how grand is it that God has saved out any  of creation?

He  is the self declared jealous God. His wrath is real and fearsome to behold. He flooded an entirety of His son's creation in His wrath against sin filled  humanity, saving but one family from which we all must be descendants.

None deserve salvation, for all have sinned against God. Yet God has shown mercy from everlasting to everlasting. He saves out some by that mercy, mercy unmerited at all by anyone or anything. 

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Salvation is either by God’s choice or it is not. Can’t have it both ways.

This is problematic in logic... it is called a false dilemma 

false dilemma - Search (bing.com) 

As it limits God's sovereignty as such: God cannot create an autonomous free willed creature and remain sovereign... Anyone with Bible sense can see the eternal control of God with autonomous free willed creatures by placement in separation from God called hell or joining with God called heaven.

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, Neighbor said:

The other side of that particular coin is; how grand is it that God has saved out any  of creation?

He  is the self declared jealous God. His wrath is real and fearsome to behold. He flooded an entirety of His son's creation in His wrath against sin filled  humanity, saving but one family from which we all must be descendants.

None deserve salvation, for all have sinned against God. Yet God has shown mercy from everlasting to everlasting. He saves out some by that mercy, mercy unmerited at all by anyone or anything. 

This would be fine if God had not declared otherwise:

This even speaking to the elect Israel
Ezekiel 33:11 (KJV)

[11] Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

and this to NT era
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)

[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Here you will undoubtedly excuse yourself to mystery... but that is denied by God Himself in His Word
Isaiah 1:18 (KJV)

[18] Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

 

[NConly]

I have been wondering 

Edited July 10, 2023 by NConly
correction

[Alive]

3 hours ago, other one said:

It is by his choice, but you can say no.   If not, what's this all about?  If it's his choice and we have no input, then none of this even matters.  He either made us for heaven or hell from the start.....   It would be kind of terrible to think God could create anything just to be punished forever without any choice or input on our side of things.

I don't think I could believe he made people just to burn them forever.

These matters are only difficult when the entire word of God is not taken into account on a few key issues...all that God has revealed on any given subject.

There are no contradictions, when this is done.

What is missing with most folks, is the unwillingness to set aside closely held doctrinal high towers (assumptions). This is the result of 'proof texting', to the exclusion of all of scripture.

[other one]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

There are no contradictions, when this is done.

The contradictions I have experienced and worked through are usually not really understanding something or some things just don't translate well.

Since I discovered my Church of Christ people were telling me things either against scripture or leaving some scripture out at the age of 17, I tend not to get too excited about what other people say about most subjects.

[JAG**]

Supplement to the article:

 

What about those in non-Christian lands in say 1600 A.D.  who died

having never heard a single world of the gospel message? Is God

good and just to abandon such persons to Gehenna? And does He

actually do that? 

 

It is important to find a reasonable solution to the problems raised

by these three questions because the notion that God consigns to Gehenna

for all eternity all people (past, present, and future) who lived and died

without ever hearing the gospel, characterizes God as unreasonable, 

mean-spirited and cruel (which He most certainly is not).

 

Many who hold the view that God does do exactly that, have not paused 

to seriously consider what they so readily believe about the character of

God.

 

Akua Adisa was born in 1600  A.D. in Africa and he lived to an old age and

died without ever hearing a single word of the gospel.

 

Are you going to proclaim that God will consign Akua to sternal Hell and

at the same time tell everybody that "God is love?"

 

Remember, on the traditional view of Hell, when Akua has suffered in agony 

in Hell for 999 trillion (to the power of 500) years, he is no nearer to the end 

than when he first entered Hell. It is not possible to reconcile such as this 

with 1 John 4:8 "God is love."

 

Thought Experiment:

How long is an Eternity of agony in Hell? Let us say a sparrow is magically 

assigned the task of cutting the Earth in half and the sparrow is to fly by 

the Earth every 100 years and brush one of its wings against the ground

surface of the Earth. How many years would it take the sparrow to cut the

Earth in half? For argument's sake let us say it took in years 999 trillion to

the power of 999 trillion. So? So  Akua Adisa, after being in agony in

Hell for as long as it took that sparrow to cut the Earth in half, would be no

closer to the end of his agony than when he first entered Hell. 

 

Such as this is not possible to reconcile with 1 John 4:8 "God is love"

or with the general character of God as presented in the Bible.

 

We need a solution to this problem and a good start in finding one is God's 

Middle Knowledge as presented in this article.

 

JAG

 

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