70 Weeks of Daniel

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

I agree he wouldn't necessarily need to be born Israeli, but I think his lineage will be important for the orthodox to accept him and so is most likely Jewish, but I'm not really clinging to that or his identity as I don't think we're at the point we will understand and debates are fought long and hard over something that is much speculation. I'm trying to focus more and more on what we do know from scripture and learning where I'm wrong as I go.

I agree.

14 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

It's not really that it's the first time it's mentioned, it's clearly used for both a token of a covenant and the majority of times a weapon elsewhere. The context in which this same word used in both places is more the point, another potential view of what might come to mind looking at the translated word "bow" with no thought back to the origins of the rainbow being a token of a covenant or associating rainbow to bow on opposite ends of the Bible. I know I would have never made that connection if I didn't try to understand what John meant in Revelation by bow. Maybe the man of sin will use a bow and arrow to conquer, and maybe the Holy Spirit is giving us a little additional insight into the nature of this rider and when he arrives on the scene.

Just saying an approach utilizing law of first mention isn't sound hermeneutic. 

What you say is possible but I'm seeing this:

"2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

The context of the bow in Gen 9 is a token and remembrance of God's covenant and promise to never flood the earth again. The bow in Rev 6 is a bow, not a covenant or a promise but is held by a conqueror. 

Perhaps it's some sigil like object conveying the idea of a covenant but I feel that's a residual thought from knowing the rider on the white horse is the 'antichrist' and he in fact confirms a covenant with many. I understand that, I just don't see any evidence of that in Rev 6.

14 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

I believe seals 1-3 are certainly all related to the setup required for the abomination of desolation to occur, but if indeed seals 1-3 represent the start of the 70th week with the strengthening of the covenant and rebuilding the temple, the wars resulting from that and the completion of the temple and start of the daily sacrifice, there must be some time between them from a purely logistical perspective. I know there's a part of Israel ready to build the temple now with everything that's needed, but they have to clear anything that's in the way, build secure foundations, haul the stone. Israel would have to mobilize for war with Egypt, the king of the South and North, etc. I'm sure Israel is prepared, but it sounds like this won't be like the six day war where Israel is defending herself. This will be a counter-attack to the hearts of the attacking nations.

Sure. However it's not necessary for any time to elapse. A conqueror, war, economic collapse and death could all begin at the same time. Between seals 1-4 and the 5th seal I see time elapse. Between seals 1-4 and the 6th and 7th seal I see time. I just am not convinced some seals aren't opened in rapid succession. We just don't know the timing of those things except in relation to other events, like a succession, a parade of crisis, if you like,

 

14 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

I would define Israel in the context of prophecy to be people of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, with of course those married in, as defined by the lineage laid out in the Old Testament through which the Messiah came. I imagine the global perception of both secular and religious people in the world defines Jews by this lineage. Historically they were easily recognized if they were religious Jews because they separated themselves according to the statutes that didn't allow them to fully integrate with the nations they were dispersed into and as a peculiar people were shunned to the point of the attempted genocide that brought them back to the Promised Land. In the context of what you responded to, Israel are all in various stages of belief. There are secular Jews, Orthodox Jews, Messianic Jews, etc. I believe that will all change as the 70th week unfolds and the majority of the population will become decidedly orthodox or a return to the Old Testament sort of nation of Israel.

So then you think believers in Christ are Israel? They, we, are the seed of Abraham.

Are those the only individuals or group that would have a particular view on the identity of Israel?

14 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

 

I would caveat that I believe Revelation 12:13-17 zooms in on the tribulation in concert with Daniel 12:1-2, Jeremiah 30:7 and Mathew 24:15-28 to show that this time of Jacob's trouble is short in comparison to the full 3 1/2 years of the antichrist's reign. This makes sense too, because as they all state, this time is for Israel and Jerusalem and Judea. These areas are not very large and it would not take as long to purge them of those who do not worship the man of sin as some larger area, or the whole earth. So in terms of your later comment about a pre-wrath, post GT catching away, I would agree with that caveat that when I define great tribulation, I'm talking about the unparalleled time in Judea that is cut short, not the whole 3 1/2 years. That's why I don't like using mid-trib or post-trib. I think there's a lot of nuance in scripture for what everyone just calls the tribulation.

 

Correct. It is not 3.5 years, it is not 7 years. It's an undefined duration between the A of D and the return of Jesus. Quite a few do not see this.

14 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

I think we can say, based on the timing of their mention in Revelation 7 and the context of Revelation 12:13-17, that these would be part of the remnant of Israel who was just taken to the wilderness to be protected from the dragon. It happens just after the signs of the sun, moon and stars in Revelation 6, which Yeshua tied to that time immediately after the unparalleled tribulation for Israel and Jerusalem. Matthew 24:29-31 In fact, the wrath of God is explicitly put on hold for the sake of sealing the 144,000.

 

Revelation 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 

Revelation 14 gives a little more description and they are obviously special, standing with the Lamb of God knowing a song exclusive to them redeemed from the earth. My speculation based on Revelation 14:4-5 is that these are young men. They are virgins, male because they aren’t defiled with women, their mouth has no guile and they are without fault before the throne of God. In Jewish tradition, a Bar Mitzvah is held at the age of 13. The term means “son of the commandment.” It is at this age that Jewish children are obligated to observe the commandments, the idea of the age of accountability. I believe these will be 144,000 Jewish boys who understand and love the Lord their God with all their hearts and minds. I believe God will use them as a witness among their parents in the wilderness to bring them to understand after the blindness of Israel has been lifted. And they will be the only ones protected from the fifth trumpet. Revelation 9:4

Scripture doesn't say what this group does in Rev 7. The only bit of scripture relating what the 144k do is in Rev 14:

Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of many waters and the loud rumbling of thunder. And the sound I heard was like harpists strumming their harps.

3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Looks like they are in heaven, or somewhere with Jesus, and they are the firstfruits of the gathering and that they do not remain on earth. Other doctrines say they are evangelists and are on earth during the wrath of God. I find no evidence of that.

14 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

 

I don't know about everyone else, but the seals, trumpets and bowls were confusing when I first started trying to understand. Who am I kidding, the whole book of Revelation was! I try to step through it logically and this is why I believe the trumpets are not concurrent with the seals

 

Revelation 8:1,2

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Of course. It's a mistake however. "And I saw..." is not "Then this happened next."

If you compare that to this:

Then the first angel sounded... 

8Then the second angel sounded... 

10Then the third angel sounded...

12Then the fourth angel sounded...

"And I saw..." is not language of succession where the 4 trumps sounding is very clearly successive.

Then we also see the 6th seal and the 7th trump as occurring together. Why?

Because the wrath of God and the Lamb is about to occur at the 6th seal, and is occurring at the 7th trump. That's not quite accurate since the verb for 'is come' is aorist, that means it exists. So unless wrath begins twice, I see no evidence of that, then the 6th seal and 7th trump occur successively and in conjunction.

Both the 6th seal and 7th trump parallel Matt 24:29-30. 

There is more evidence in Joel as well.

 

14 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

I believe this is pretty clear evidence that the trumpets don’t happen until after all seven seals are opened, since the angels aren’t even given their trumpets until after the seventh seal. Even then, they do not blow them until the angel casts the censer to the earth after the seventh seal.

Yes and no. Here's the censer:

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake."

This is the 7th bowl

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake "

This is the 7th trump:

" And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake,"

The above contradicts a strictly successive, linear timeline for seals, trumps, and bowls. In reality it's like three streams coming to a confluence and an unstoppable destruction after they merge.

14 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

Furthermore we see just before in Revelation 7:1-3, which is between the sixth seal and the start of God’s wrath, the four angels who are given power to hurt the earth and sea are told to wait until the 144,000 are sealed before they can begin. Interestingly we also see at this time, just before God’s wrath, the uncountable multitudes in heaven from every nation before the throne in white robes that came out of great tribulation.

Sure, but that doesn't mean some of the trumps could not sound, or did not sound, before wrath begins.

Joel says the trees are burned and all the green grass burned up when the meat and drink offering is cut off from the house of God.

That's the 1st trump.

According to Joel, the 1st trump has sounded at the same time as the A of D when the sacrifice and oblation is stopped.

And, the four angels that hurt the land and sea are designated trumpeters nor bowl carriers. 

The first four bowls of wrath also very much hurt land and sea. The word for 'land' in Rev 7 can mean 'people'. For instance, the 1st bowl is said to be poured out on the earth, "2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth;" after that, people got the sores. Clearly the idea here is 'people of the earth'

The same for the 4th angel. Sun so hot that men blaspheme God would not only scorch men but the soil, land and whatever flora and fauna are left. 

So, telling the four angels not to hurt the earth and sea could mean, and likely does, the 1st four angels of the bowls. And again, these four are not identified by an object, just influence.

14 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

This tells us that the seventh trumpet isn’t a quick blast, but a blast which lasts for days. And when he begins to sound, the mystery of God is finished. Keeping that in mind, lets examine when the trumpet sounds.

 

Revelation 11:15

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

Later in Revelation, we see the angels get their bowls.

 

Revelation 15:1; 5-8

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God...

 

...And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

 

So the angels weren’t even given these bowls until after the seventh angel began to sound and these bowl judgments are specifically labeled as the seven last plagues that fill up the wrath of God. Notice how all seven of these bowls are poured out in one chapter and in pretty short and to the point ways. I believe this gives the impression of increased frequency. In fact, I believe that these bowls are all poured out during the days of the voice of the seventh trumpet. And finally, at the seventh bowl...

Yes. I think it abundantly clear the 7 plagues are the final blows, after the final seal and heralded by the 7th trump. In any case they are the last. 

 

[Triton57]

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

IMHO, 2 Thess. 2 is the Departure (of the Church, not from the Faith, I have a blog on it and a post on here in the past). The Holy Spirit is blocking him from coming forth until we the church depart. Verse 1 shows us what is being spoken about in the passage, the Gathering unto Jesus, not a Departure from the Faith in this instance.

 

I used to hold this view as well, but have since changed my mind on it. In the context of where apostasia is used elsewhere in scripture, it's in the Septuagint three times LXX G646 / H4777 / H2186 / H4878 and twice in the New Testament.

 

Joshua 22:22

The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if [it be] in rebellion[G646/H4777], or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)

 

2 Chronicles 29:19

Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away[G646/H2186] in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they [are] before the altar of the LORD.

 

Jeremiah 2:19

Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings[G646/H4878] shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that [it is] an evil [thing] and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear [is] not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

 

Acts 21:21

And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake[G646] Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away[G646] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

In all cases I feel the meaning is clear that the plain reading would agree that falling away is the idea of rebellion, backsliding, casting away and forsaking. It is a departure, but in this context it is a departure from truth. Rebellion is pretty clear, but casting away is something that was done during transgression, backsliding requiring reprove, the Jews among the Gentiles forsaking Moses and of course the falling away.

 

Something I had not thought of in relation to this is in the context of Israel, I've always taken a general apostasy from truth or God. However, knowing what I do of other scriptures about this time before the catching away and God's focus on Israel during this time, this could be specific to Israel accepting the man of sin as their messiah, turning from the Messiah that came in His Father's name to a man who comes in his own name.

 

John 5:39-47

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

It may or may not be a global falling away, but I do think it is a falling away in rebellion to the truth or God in my opinion based on how the word is used elsewhere in scripture. I would also say that the "day of Christ" in 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 points to verses 1 and 2.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away[G646] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

The church in Thessalonica is asked "by" or "on behalf of" the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to Him, not to be troubled that the day of Christ is at hand. He's connecting the two, which I believe agrees with scripture pointing to a catching away of the bride just before the day of the Lord to escape the wrath of God and stand before the Son of Man. Revelation 7

 

The "day of Christ" appears 3 times in the New Testament and also a variation "day of our Lord Jesus Christ" twice.

 

Philippians 1:10

That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

 

Philippians 2:16

Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:2

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

1 Corinthians 1:4-8

I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Philippians 1:6

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

Notice that several of these passages seem to mark the day of Christ as an end point or destination for the race we run in keeping the faith, or that Paul has not taught in vain so that we be without offense till the day of Christ and he can rejoice in that day. And in waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

I believe scripture distinguishes the same day for two groups. For the wicked who don't understand, the day of the Lord is destruction and wrath from God. For the wise who are watching and do understand, the day of Christ is the blessed hope and end goal for all who believe in Yeshua.

 

So I think the church was concerned that the day of Christ had come and they were not standing in heaven with the Lord as they were told they would be, that they had been shut out of the marriage for some reason.

 

I would posit that many of those who call themselves the church is falling away from God right now. I think the parable of the 10 virgins would agree with this idea as half of those considering themselves the bride are shut out of the marriage. Matthew 25:1-13

 

Isaiah 28:9-13

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts. For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This [is] the rest [wherewith] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

 

I believe God has hidden His secrets in plain sight, but it requires digesting precepts and making connections across the whole of scripture to better understand what a single line might say. This is where legalism can bite people when they base doctrines on single lines, or Israel missing their Messiah and enthralled in legalism of the Law. All of scripture must be like a well tuned orchestra in concert with itself.

 

In Matthew 24:15-30, Yeshua states the signs of the sixth seal follow the unparalleled tribulation in Judea, a time repeated by Jeremiah 30:4-7 and Daniel 12:1, a time that is cut short. Immediately after that time is the sixth seal with the sun, moon and stars.

 

Joel 2:30-31

And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

 

And if we look in Revelation, we see that exact sequence from Revelation 6-8, the sixth seal, sealing 144,000, rapture of the countless multitude in heaven, the wrath of God beginning with the trumpets.

 

So the coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him are confirmed by John, Joel, Daniel, Jeremiah and Yeshua to have a sequence of abomination of desolation > unparalleled tribulation > sun, moon, stars event > saving remnant Israel > rapture of the bride > Wrath of God.

 

This is one of the reasons I think the falling away translation is accurate to mean apostasy from God. Our gathering to the Lord is after the tribulation of those days, meaning the revealing of the man of sin that starts the unparalleled tribulation must be something else, in my view Michael the archangel.

 

Quote

As I was doing my Exegesis on Dan. 11 & 12 which is also on here, where I name every king and player in all 45 verses of Dan. 11, and whilst doing Dan. 12 God revealed something very important I had neve seen, so much so it has been a game changer on all my End Times Understandings, I even thought to myself, this can not be right so I had to tr the spirits, but anyway, in Dan. 12:6 and angel askes the Man in Linen (Jesus pre incarnate) howl long until "ALL THESE WONDERS END" (Dan. 11:36-45) and in a round about way, he was told it would take 1260 days after Israel's power were scattered (conquered) thus the Time, times and half means the Anti-Christ/Little Horn rules for only 1260 days which is ended by what? Well, we now know it will be ended by the Second Coming of Jesus. So, as we look back at Dan. 11:36-45 we know those wonders will be ended by Jesus' Second Coming (we have to keep that in mind going forward here).

 

Then I saw it, Daniel 12:8 changed my understandings of all End Time Events. Daniel asks what amounts to the exact same question that the Angel Gabriel or Michael asked, so why do we change the understanding?

 

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”

 

9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end.(Now) 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

 

11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

 

I see 100s of guesses on this, no one gets it, some say it reaches into the 1000 year reign of Christ, other says this or that or.........well people are all over the place tbh.

 

+1 I have a theory too You caught my attention as I was reading this as I've not heard many other theories. I'll have to post mine separately or maybe in smaller responses.

 

Quote

But the Lord was like Ron, the question does not change, all of the numbers are Events that end via the Second Coming just like the 1260 is an Event" (A.C. becomes the Beast) That event ends with the 2nd coming, Daniel was not told the 1260 was the A.C. was he? But we figured it out by looking at Dan. 11:36-45 and in other places. So, if the 1290 was 1290 days before the 2nd Coming then it was also 30 days before the A.C. goes forth conquering to become The Beast (here is when my doubts crept in and I had to try the spirits). So, this means the A.C. can not take part in the 1290 himself. My thinking was, well that idea is doomed, but as I looked at Dan. 9:27 it states he (A.C.) CAUSES the Sacrifice to be taken away and the AoD to be placed. Then I remembered Rev. 13 says the 2nd Beast (False Prophet) gets the masses to make an IMAGE (AoD) of the First Beast and all men must worship the Beast or die. Hmmm. Kind of could work I thought, but I had always been taught the A.C. was the one who created the AoD.

 

I took it the other way, but it may end up in the same place. Daniel 12:11 gives the starting point of the 1,290 days as the abomination of desolation, but trails off at the end a bit so it was trying to figure out the context. (70th Week)

 

So the antichrist is out fulfilling Daniel 11:36-45 and the false prophet sets up an image of him to worship while he's not there, then 30 days later he shows up and stands in the temple claiming to be god? So far I think I'm following. Looking at Daniel 9:27 it looks like the Hebrew is translated differently in English, but it might be taken that way as well. "He shall cause" and "to cease" are actually just one word before the sacrifice and oblation, but in the translation it wraps H7673 around sacrifice and oblation. It does say it can be used as to cause though as well. I'm not even close to being a Hebrew or English scholar though, lol.

 

Quote

Them a TIMING TELL affirmed this to me, God gives the Jews a SIGN to Flee Judea (we all know that, and that it is the AoD) but why would an all-knowing God wait to give the Jews a SIGN after they were conquered? LOL, see the bad logic there? But if the SIGN was a False Prophet (HINT: who will be a Jewish High Priest more later on how I know) who takes away "THE REAL SACRIFICE" an d then places an Image of the A.C./Beast up in the Temple at the 1290, which is 30 days before the 1260, that would give the Jews 30 days to Flee Judea, see the puzzle coming together now? The 1290 happens 1290 days before "ALL THESE WONDERS END" which is 30 days before the 1260, but alas 45 days after the 1335 !!! Who could the 1335 Blessing be I wondered? Hmm. Study on I did.

 

I always wondered how Israel knew to Flee Judea, they never as a Nation read Matt. 24:15-21. But the 1335 happens 45 days BFORE the 1290 AoD and 75 days BEFORE the Beast comes to power, what could be "The Blessing" I thought. Then it hit me, in order fir Israel to know they need to Flee Judea they have to have repented and read Matt. 24:15-21 or the Two-witnesses would have to show up and teach them those facts. Well, as Malachi 4:5-6 says, Elijah will be sent back before the DOTL to turn Israel back uno God. The DOTL is the 1260 so it fits. We also see that it fits the Zechariah 13:8-9 events where 1/3 of Israel repents, because in the very next verse (Zech. 14:1) we see the DOTL arrives, then Jerusalem falls in vs. 2 and Jesus returns in vs. 3 which is 1260 days after vs. 2 of course. So, Israel indeed repents JUST BEFORE the DOTL or God's Wrath falls. Therefore coming Two-witnesses are indeed the 1335 Blessing. The last thing that I did to affirm this was check their timelines in Revelation against the Beasts timeline, since both have ordained by God 1260 day timelines, we should be able to tell if the Two-witnesses show up before the Beast does, and we can. In Rev. 11 we see the Two-witnesses DIE at the end of the 2nd Woe, just before the 3rd Woe arrives, the Beast DIES at the 7th Vial as we all know when Jesus shows up, so since the Two-witnesses die first, they also have to show up BEFORE the A.C. becomes the Beast. Its  mathematical equation that can not be argued against. That is why God gave them both 1260 day ordained offices, so we can juxtapose their timelines, and imho, the only reason He allows the Two-witnesses to be killed at all.

 

I would agree that the 2 witnesses will show up in the first half of the week based on how they are killed, once again showing that the prophets are killed in Jerusalem.

 

Revelation 11:7

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

 

Just a couple chapters earlier the bottomless pit, which was locked previously, is unlocked and the demon locusts are released. This has to be at least 5 months before Christ returns as their stings torment them five months.

 

Revelation 9:1-2

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

 

This would mean since their testimony is 1,260 days, it must start in the midst of the first half sometime.

 

Quote

If you notice, I stated the False Prophet takes away THE REAL SACRIFICE (Jesus) but I got all that later, the puzzle first had to come together that Israel repents BEFORE the coming DOTL, that's when (as all puzzles do) everything started getting simpler to see or understand. There is no way two Angels and Jesus are talking about a PROFANE Meat Sacrifice being "taken away" that in itself would be seen  by God as mockery unto Jesus' death. The Temple has to be cleansed first, God rent the temple (left it) when Jesus died, when the Jews repent as a Nation (1/3 do) God will CLEANSE the Temple, thus now when this False Prophet (Jewish High Priest like unto Jason under Antiochus...MORE later) gets his orders from the Beast (E.U. President) from afar he will stop all of the Jesus Worship because 1/3 or 3.5-5 million Jews have accepted Jesus as their Messiah and naturally started worshiping Jesus in the Temple of God for 45 days between the 1335 and the 1290. Then the A.C. from afar (he can not Conquer until the 1260 events) will put pressure on Israel and the High Priest to stop this Jesus Worship, plus the High Priest will be anti Jesus anyway. Then out of spite he will place an IMAGE of the E.U. President up in the temple, since Israel joins the E.U. (IMHO) he will be over Israel in a way also, but he does not dare to go forth conquering unto God allows him to at the 1260 Asteroid Event (Rev. 8). So, the Anti-Christ is not the one who stops Jesus Worship in person, that is the False Prophet High Priest.

 

Would you hold that Ezekiel 40-48 is a picture of the millennial temple? I have a feeling looking at both historical and prophetic scripture that temple sacrifices are not over. When they were instituted, they were told to be kept for their generations, one of the reason Israel has a desire to have a temple again, the ones that care anyway.

 

Exodus 12:14-17

And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. And in the first day [there shall be] an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save [that] which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. And ye shall observe [the feast of] unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.

 

Exodus 27:20-21

And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always. In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which [is] before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: [it shall be] a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

 

Exodus 29:38-42

Now this [is that] which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually. The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even: And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine [for] a drink offering. And the other lamb thou shalt offer at even, and shalt do thereto according to the meat offering of the morning, and according to the drink offering thereof, for a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD. [This shall be] a continual burnt offering throughout your generations [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD: where I will meet you, to speak there unto thee.

 

Exodus 31:13-17

Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant. It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

 

Leviticus 17:5-7

To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them [for] peace offerings unto the LORD. And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the LORD. And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

 

There are passages like Exodus 16:32-33 where they were told to keep the manna for their generations, which obviously has been lost, but many of these ordinances were meant to be forever for the people of Israel. Perhaps what was a foreshadow in some aspects of Christ, will just be ceremonial dinners Christ has with His people, a memorial and communion face to face. In whatever state it is centered on the covenant with Israel so it would seem during the millennium that these statutes determined for Israel will be carried out by Israel in the future still and it obviously won't be rejected by God.

 

Perhaps in the beginning of the third temple Israel has good intentions in building the temple and fulfilling their side of the statutes given them to follow forever, but when the conquering king saves them from their enemies, they fall for the great deception and replace the true Messiah they rejected with a false messiah. I tend to lean toward the idea that the whole third temple will not be something God is behind, but must happen to fulfill the plan and He will send His two witnesses to speak the truth, likely at the temple, to the multitudes who are coming to keep the statues of their past generations.

 

I have a hard time believing that the temple of that time will have much worship of Yeshua in it, although I can't rule it out. There's a lot to wait and see how things unfold for sure.

 

Quote

As  was studying Dan. 11 in vs. 22 or 23 I came across a vs. that speaks about the High Priest, I looked him up and his name was Onias III he was a righteous High Priest, but his brother Jason  (real name Yeshua) bribed Antiochus in order to be named the High Priest and had his brother Onias III killed. He then welcomed Antiochus into the temple to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus on the altar of God. Jason then mandated that all Jews become Hellenized or else, leading unto the Maccabean Revolt. That was bother EUREKA moment !! Of course God would not only give us the Anti-Christ archetype in Antiochus but he would also have to live at the exact same time as the archetype False Prophet and Jason was that TYPE False Prophet, now I knew the end time False Prophet would be a Jewish High Priest after the order of Jason, who betrayed his Jewish brothers. So, the 1290 is a Jewish High Priest who forbids aby Jesus Worship in "HIS TEMPLE" !! And then places the AoD up, an Image of the Beast. The Jews who have repented therefore know its time to flee Judea, they also know they have only 30 days to do so.

You see, things are nowhere near as they seem to be, men got answers from other men before God was ready to reveal these things in the very end, now those other men's ideas are blocking out God's truths.

 

That's an interesting possible correlation of a coup of the temple. It would fit with the idea Chris White introduced in his book False Christ of a Jewish antichrist. It would make sense looking at things politically now, that the antichrist would show up as a strong man with a very Israel-first focus and a return to the ways of their ancestors. Calling out all the hypocrisy since Israel was re-formed of the Jews being kept from practicing their religion while having rocks thrown at them from the temple mount as they pray at the Western Wall, etc.

 

Not putting up with it anymore, he will find some way to make it happen and the temple will be rebuilt, chaos will ensue with the neighbors and while he is dealing with that, the temple is built and the daily sacrifices restart, fully intending to go back to Old Testament practices according to the Torah. Whether accepted by God or not is not really relevant, but it seems to me at this point talk of Yeshua will be more and more pushed out of the public square, especially as this strong man continues to win battles for Israel.

 

In certain corners of Israel, whispers of messiah will grow watching the strong leader conquer. Study of Old Testament prophecy will spike as comparisons are made between the prophecies and the strong leader.

 

In other corners of Israel, whispers of the antichrist will grow watching the strong leader conquer. Study of the Old and New Testament prophecy will spike as these same comparisons are made. The warnings of Yeshua, Daniel, Paul regarding the man of sin declaring himself to be god and the great tribulation following. They will be warning whoever will listen and whether Christians or not, many in Israel will hear this warning and eventually heed it.

 

Many in Israel may still be viewing the temple with an Old Testament lens until the switch takes place and many in Israel will be caught off guard and reject this man in their temple declaring himself god, meanwhile the Christians and the Jews who have heeded the warning will leave Judea immediately. Those who accept the false christ will do anything for him and those blindsided who reject him will either capitulate or die.

 

It's an interesting thought since the false prophet will be pointing to the man of sin, but there's something I'll have to think more on that makes me believe that there can't really be any kind of revealing until the man of sin stands in the temple declaring himself to be god. That's when the restrainer is removed, allowing that. I'll have to think on it some more.

 

Quote

I take way to much time, got a pregnant cat crying is time to have my babies, LOL, later on. (P.S. she was wild and starving, so never had a cat, but my doggie Bam a died about 6 months ago on his 15th birthday plus 7 days, so I kinda took her in, she even lets me touch her now lol)

 

Good on you for taking her in, how many kittens? What breed was Bam? We have a Chiweenie who is getting up there in years, but she's still amazingly active for her years. It's a good thing the laser light makes her go nuts, keeps her in shape!

[Triton57]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

 Just saying an approach utilizing law of first mention isn't sound hermeneutic.

What you say is possible but I'm seeing this:

"2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

The context of the bow in Gen 9 is a token and remembrance of God's covenant and promise to never flood the earth again. The bow in Rev 6 is a bow, not a covenant or a promise but is held by a conqueror.

Perhaps it's some sigil like object conveying the idea of a covenant but I feel that's a residual thought from knowing the rider on the white horse is the 'antichrist' and he in fact confirms a covenant with many. I understand that, I just don't see any evidence of that in Rev 6.

 

Yes I understand, I just thought it was interesting that the symbol of a bow was a token of a covenant in Genesis. My point wasn't about what the covenant is for as I'm certainly not attempting to compare the context of the scripture in Genesis to that of Revelation 6, although I can see how that conclusion would be arrived at.

 

Quote

Sure. However it's not necessary for any time to elapse. A conqueror, war, economic collapse and death could all begin at the same time. Between seals 1-4 and the 5th seal I see time elapse. Between seals 1-4 and the 6th and 7th seal I see time. I just am not convinced some seals aren't opened in rapid succession. We just don't know the timing of those things except in relation to other events, like a succession, a parade of crisis, if you like,

 

I agree, I'm not opposed to the seals happening at essentially the same time in quick succession, I have no reason to necessarily hold either way aside from thinking it through logistically based on my perspective of what the seals represent. Since we are not really given enough information to be dogmatic one way or the other on timing.

 

Quote

So then you think believers in Christ are Israel? They, we, are the seed of Abraham.

Are those the only individuals or group that would have a particular view on the identity of Israel?

 

As I'm sure you know, Romans 11 is a whole explanation of this as well as it being stated outright.

 

Galatians 3:26-29

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

As with many things I believe this whole topic is very nuanced because of the confusion of time and eternity. We are stuck in a temporal space-time in which we have a flow of events that proceed in their order. I believe God is outside of space-time and all time is one time, like all of space-time is a ball in which He can see what we call the start of time and He can see what we call the end of time. At any time, according to our perception, God can reach in and influence our time. From God's perspective I believe He had done all He desired to do affecting all mankind's history even though for us that future is not yet come.

 

We are locked in this dimension, unable to see into the heavenly dimension until we receive our glorified bodies. I believe at that time our soul will be tied to our incorruptible bodies, leaving this corruptible behind and our limitations within this dimension will be removed and we will see Him face to face as He is. Taking that into account:

 

• Yeshua is eternal and is (the root), in this context I guess you could say He's ultimately Israel, creating the world we exist in, yet born into a chosen people through a lineage within space-time to redeem those that believe.
• Eternally all natural Israel (natural branch) who will ever from all of time accept Yeshua and live by faith are what I would call spiritual Israel, eternal Israel, or Messianic Israel consisting of all 12 tribes.
• Eternally all Gentiles (wild branch) who will ever from all of time accept Yeshua and live by faith are what I would call spiritual Israel or eternal Israel.

 

Bible prophecy, for the most part, is not about eternity it is about points in time declared for the glory of God to show who He is and for our benefit because we are His friends who believe and obey. John 15:12-17

 

So it depends on at what point in time and the context of which Israel one is speaking, natural or eternal. Additionally, it is possible for a specific depiction to be both. For instance, I interpret the following passage thus:

 

Revelation 12:13-17

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child]. (Natural Israel from whom the Messiah was born specifically in the time at the abomination of desolation, so it's all of natural Israel in Judea the dragon is after. That doesn't exclude eternal Israel who also happens to live in Judea at this point in space-time.) And to the woman (Same identity as before) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she (Same identity as before) is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, (same identity as before) and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (combination of both natural Israel and eternal Israel around the world)

 

There's more nuance in this passage I think given the related passages around this time that would seem to place the point in time the woman is protected from the dragon as the time of the sealing of 144,000 of those being protected and the catching away of the bride. Therefore, the making war after they're protected is the remainder of the dragon's time giving the beast his power and those pursued after that point would be the ones part of the first resurrection after Christ returns and takes the kingdoms.

 

Revelation 20:4-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

Quote

Scripture doesn't say what this group does in Rev 7. The only bit of scripture relating what the 144k do is in Rev 14:

Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of many waters and the loud rumbling of thunder. And the sound I heard was like harpists strumming their harps.

3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Looks like they are in heaven, or somewhere with Jesus, and they are the firstfruits of the gathering and that they do not remain on earth. Other doctrines say they are evangelists and are on earth during the wrath of God. I find no evidence of that.

 

I agree the idea they evangelize is purely speculation, and Revelation 14 may be disconnected timing-wise from that of the placement 7 chapters earlier. It is hinted that they will still be on the earth during the wrath of God however, because they are the only ones I'm aware of that are sealed with the seal of God and therefore the only ones we are aware that are protected at the fifth trumpet.

 

Revelation 9:4

And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

 

Certainly not something I'm dogmatic about, but it seems to line up with what I understand at this point of my study of prophecy.

 

Quote

Of course. It's a mistake however. "And I saw..." is not "Then this happened next."

If you compare that to this:

Then the first angel sounded...

8Then the second angel sounded...

10Then the third angel sounded...

12Then the fourth angel sounded...

"And I saw..." is not language of succession where the 4 trumps sounding is very clearly successive.

 

I'm not sure it's a mistake, a perspective maybe. I agree "I saw" is not a statement of order, but in the context of the seals, trumpets, thunders, and bowls, Revelation does seem to have a sequence to it. The mention of each of each of these in groups of seven mentioned one after the other. Although it's not a statement of order, it is ordered in that it occurs in the revelation to John after all seven seals have been broken. I'm not concerned about "I saw" being an order statement, but rather it's placement in the sentence after the seventh seal is broken and before the first trumpet is blown.

 

Furthermore, I think we need to keep in context what the seals are.

 

Revelation 5:1-5

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

 

There is speculation on what is contained in the book, but I don't really think we need to go there to recognize the seals are described apart from trumpets, thunders, and bowls as seven seals that must be broken to open and read the book. It requires no trumpets to be blown or bowls poured out, just breaking the seals, which happens immediately after the Root of David takes the book.

 

Quote

Then we also see the 6th seal and the 7th trump as occurring together. Why?

Because the wrath of God and the Lamb is about to occur at the 6th seal, and is occurring at the 7th trump. That's not quite accurate since the verb for 'is come' is aorist, that means it exists. So unless wrath begins twice, I see no evidence of that, then the 6th seal and 7th trump occur successively and in conjunction.

Both the 6th seal and 7th trump parallel Matt 24:29-30.

There is more evidence in Joel as well.

 

If you see the sixth seal and seventh trumpet occurring together and you see the succession between the 1 and 7, would you say then that seals 1-5, trumpets 1-6, and bowls 1-6 are not the wrath of God and the Lamb?

 

Quote

Yes and no. Here's the censer:

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake."

This is the 7th bowl

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake "

This is the 7th trump:

" And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake,"

The above contradicts a strictly successive, linear timeline for seals, trumps, and bowls. In reality it's like three streams coming to a confluence and an unstoppable destruction after they merge.

 

One might say that it is possible for this pattern of events to be repeated outside of them being the same event. This as opposed to say the combination of Jeremiah 30:4-7, Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:15-28. Each of these passages seem to be talking about the same time, but what makes it clear that they are is they all claim that this period being spoken of is unlike any other time before or after it. That provides a logical connection that all are the same.

 

Similar to many of the comparisons to the seals, trumpets and bowls as occurring in parallel, there are variances that don't match up. Aside from the time between the 7th seal and first trumpet being another angel taking the censer and pouring it out separate from any mention of the breaking of the seventh seal, there are some differences in language as referenced above.

 

Revelation 8:3-5

And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

 

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

Revelation 16:18

And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great.

 

If you go through each of the seals, trumpets and bowls, there are sometimes similarities, but significant variances and sometimes completely unrelated without some serious twisting and bending.

 

Quote

Sure, but that doesn't mean some of the trumps could not sound, or did not sound, before wrath begins.

Joel says the trees are burned and all the green grass burned up when the meat and drink offering is cut off from the house of God.

That's the 1st trump.

According to Joel, the 1st trump has sounded at the same time as the A of D when the sacrifice and oblation is stopped.

And, the four angels that hurt the land and sea are designated trumpeters nor bowl carriers.

The first four bowls of wrath also very much hurt land and sea. The word for 'land' in Rev 7 can mean 'people'. For instance, the 1st bowl is said to be poured out on the earth, "2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth;" after that, people got the sores. Clearly the idea here is 'people of the earth'

The same for the 4th angel. Sun so hot that men blaspheme God would not only scorch men but the soil, land and whatever flora and fauna are left.

So, telling the four angels not to hurt the earth and sea could mean, and likely does, the 1st four angels of the bowls. And again, these four are not identified by an object, just influence.

 

I believe there can be similarities, but at what point do we say they are the same event? For instance, if these events are all parallel such that the seals trumpets and bowls are different perspectives of the same thing, then let's look at the example of Joel speaking about the trees burning up and green grass burned up connected to the first trump and other firsts.

 

Joel 1:15-20

Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD [is] at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, [yea], joy and gladness from the house of our God? The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered. How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate. O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field. The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

 

Revelation 6:1-2

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

 

Revelation 8:7

The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 

Revelation 16:2

And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.

 

I can see the first trump relationship, but how are the grievous sores on those with the mark of the beast related to anything burning up? Looking at the second sets:

 

Revelation 6:3-4

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse [that was] red: and [power] was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

 

Revelation 8:8-9

And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

 

Revelation 16:3

And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea.

 

Again, the seal seems to have nothing to do with the sea, in fact he's taking peace from the earth. The trumpet and bowls have some similarities, in both the sea becomes blood, but how can it be the same event if in the trumpets only 1/3 of the creatures die while the second bowl every living soul in the sea died? Similarity doesn't translate to equality when I read these events and given the groups of seven seals, groups of seven trumpets and groups of seven bowls happen together sequentially apart from the others through Revelation and taken with the other points I can't see these as being other explanations of the same events.

 

I may be misunderstanding your point because you seem to agree the seven bowls aren't tied to the trumpets and seals, but it seemed before you were relating them together. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I used to hold this view as well, but have since changed my mind on it. In the context of where apostasia is used elsewhere in scripture, it's in the Septuagint three times LXX G646 / H4777 / H2186 / H4878 and twice in the New Testament.

 

My Blog on this site from 7 or so years ago, where I cite Dr. Reagan and Tommy Ice pretty much shows why this is not nor never was a Departure of the Faith. Faith is never mentioned in the Passage, the Rapture is.  I will post this as a stand alone post.

----------------------------------

Is the Falling Away a False Teaching? 

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 some odd years.

----------------------

Dr. Andy Woods thinks this is 100 percent factual also. 

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Triton57 said:

+1 I have a theory too You caught my attention as I was reading this as I've not heard many other theories. I'll have to post mine separately or maybe in smaller responses.

 

Well, I have a post on Daniel 11 & 12 that leans more historical in nature. 

 

3 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I took it the other way, but it may end up in the same place. Daniel 12:11 gives the starting point of the 1,290 days as the abomination of desolation, but trails off at the end a bit so it was trying to figure out the context. (70th Week)

 

TBH, no one gets this for one reason, God told Daniel he was going to lock this up until the very end. But MEN goy other ideas before God was ready to reveal His truths, now men can't get past other men's ideas. I know this because of an answered prayer.

One night after my heart attack in 2016 I was like "Lord, you called me unto Prophecy nigh 40 years ago and told me in a vision that the "Man of Sin is here" in 1986" (and that Jimmy Swaggart would soon fall). "So, why is it the church in these end times, when you are supposed to give us all of the answers, has 100s of interpretations of who Babylon is, who the 144,000 are, what the Beast is etc. etc. when there is only one truth?" And I git this

"Ron, you guys already know it all" 

So, God tries to reach us it seems but we allow our own knowledge, mostly gathered from other men, who came up with ideas before God was ready to reveal His end time truths and THOSE IDEAS block us from hearing God's truths. So, at that point I stepped back, told the Lord, tell me anything, I will listen, so I got used to questioning all the supposed KNOWN FACTS especially when they did not quite add up, like the Anti-Christ standing in the temple (AoD) before God gave the SIGN to the Jews to flee Judea, that never made any sense at all. Like the Beast in Dan. 7:11 being killed and his BODY DESTROYED but in Rev. 19:20 he is CAST ALIVE into hell. God makes no mistakes we men either interpret the passages wrong or they got translated wrong like the 2300 Evening & Morning Sacrifices (2 a day) which equals 1500 days. So, in essence I knew to go back to how I read the Gospels as a newborn baby Christian, where I simple said, Lord, what does this mean, and I always got a answer. Prophesy was way over our heads as young Christians so we read other men's IDEAS, most were great men of the Lord, but God choses when to reveal His truths, not men. 

3 hours ago, Triton57 said:

So the antichrist is out fulfil

 

3 hours ago, Triton57 said:

So the antichrist is out fulfilling Daniel 11:36-45 and the false prophet sets up an image of him to worship while he's not there, then 30 days later he shows up and stands in the temple claiming to be god? So far I think I'm following. Looking at Daniel 9:27 it looks like the Hebrew is translated differently in English, but it might be taken that way as well. "He shall cause" and "to cease" are actually just one word before the sacrifice and oblation, but in the translation it wraps H7673 around sacrifice and oblation. It does say it can be used as to cause though as well. I'm not even close to being a Hebrew or English scholar though, lol.

Well, I wouldn't say he's out fulfilling  Daniel 11:36-45 (even though he is) because that makes it sound like he's conquering, the first 3.5 years remember is a fake peace of sorts (its not really peace, its more or less, imho, Israel joining the E.U. so look at it like this, after the Gog & Magog war, Israel, who currently play Football/Soccer in the Euros, and by the way who want to join the E.U. (at least many do), will be forced or STRONG ARMED (Gabor) into giving up their Nukes, but in so doing they will be offered "protection" lets say as the United States offered protection to Hawaii in order to get them to become a U.S. State. But Israel will be told they have to give up their Nukes, how else would the A.C. Conquer them? So, the first 3.5 years is more like an Agreement that starts going more and more sideways, they can see what's coming, like everyone saw what Hitler was going to do before he did it, Chamberlin tried to appease him to no avail, they gave back the Sudetenland, etc. etc. 

Since Israel have joined the E.U. the A.C. will have a pro Euro faction in Israel just like Antiochus had a pro Hellenist faction in Israel. So, tensions are running high already, then these Two-witnesses (imho, Moses and Elijah) show up preaching Jesus crucified, start telling the Jews what is about to happen but these men have strange powers, and they get millions of Jews to repent (3.5-5 million) and this happens 1335 days before the 2nd Coming ends all of these things and 45 days before the AoD and 75 days before the Wrath of God falls which releases the Anti-Christ to go forth conquering. So, it all fits together, people just do nit understand the Numbers meanings. They all get on e number right, the 1260 is how many days the Anti-Christ has to rule before Jesus returns to END ALL TESE THINGS, but they miss the other two. By the way, there is a reason why John was told about the coming False Prophet but Daniel was not. John was told after Israel had fallen. If Daniel had of been told a coming False Prophet Jewish High Priest was going to betray his people, then every other High Priest from Daniel's time until 70 AD would have been killed out of fear, after all look what King Herod did, he tried to kill baby Jesus, this is why we are only given a number, the 1290. 

Most times, if we put many things together, that can overcome our lack of Old World word familiarity, however we have much more access than most generations because of the computer. God gives us many layers that way we can always get the overall gist of what God is saying unto us by reading many passages.

4 hours ago, Triton57 said:

Just a couple chapters earlier the bottomless pit, which was locked previously, is unlocked and the demon locusts are released. This has to be at least 5 months before Christ returns as their stings torment them five months.

 

Yes, basically the 1st Woe happens almost at the 1260 middle of the week, not quite, the reason most people think its way later on is you have Four Trumps, and this is the 5th Trump (1st Woe) but what most do not get is the First Four Trumps are all "one event" an Asteroid Impact. (Apophis IMHO). You see as an Asteroid makes its way through our atmosphere it breaks up, then one that blew up over Russia years back neve made impact but got close, but these sulfur balls (what destroyed Sodom) will break apart and cause fires over North & South America, that is the First Trump. Then Trump #2 is The Impact of the asteroid. Trump #3 is simply the FALLOUT of whatever poison it creates, sulfur fallout killed the Dinos, a strange metal could cause a nuclear like fallout, all we know is it poisons the Fresh Waters. Finally Trump #4 is the Sun and Moon going dark/getting dimmer by 1/3 because of all the smoke from  1/3 of the world burning. I see the 1/3 as a DESTINATION POINT, the New World has almost exactly 1/3 of the worlds Landmass and te Pacific Ocean has 1/3 of all the water on the face of the earth. At first I discounted the Pacific Ocean angle, after all I though we just named it that, BUT NO...These Oceans actually all have a certain PHD that creates a barrier (I looked this up, lol, I am crazy like that) and all of the Oceans have a certain  amount of water, so imho, I think the 1/3 is God telling us this Asteroid is going to hit in the Pacific Ocean just off of North America (California/Mexico). Since Jesus will be ruling for 1000 years from the Old World (Jerusalem) this makes perfect sense, also, now in Rev. 16 when we are told about the Kings of the East all gathering at Armageddon, that simply means the E.U. (Anti-Christ) and the Kings to the East of Israel, are all that remains viable !! The Old World will be destroyed, imho, by fire. 

So, this one Asteroid will not take years, its will all happen in days or weeks. This is why I put Woe #1 much closer to the middle of the week. By the way, Apollyon is the Scarlet Colored Beast who has NO CROENS in Rev. 17. He is an 8th King but his kingdom is not a part of this world, hence on his 7 Heads and 10 Horns there is no crowns at all, in Rev. 12 the Red Dragon has 7 CROWNS on the 7 Heads (Mediterranean Sea Region and the Anti-Christ in Rev. 13 has the 10 CROWNS on the 10 Horns/Kings (E.U.) Actually Satan has the CROWNS over the whole world as Luke 4 shows us but the 7 Heads and 10 Horns is only about that region in the old world.

So, what about the Seals? They are not God's Wrath, they are OPENING God's Scroll of Wrath. In other words as Jesus opens the Seals he's merely prophesying what God's Wrath is about to bring forth over a 42 month period of time. Seals 1-5 is Jesus FORETELLING what the coming Anti-Christs 42 month reign will bring. 1.) He Conquers for 42 months 2.) He takes peace from the earth/brings war for 42 months. 3.) His Wars bring FAMINE. 4.) This Beasts rule brings Sickness, Death and the Grave (Hades) for 42 months and finally he will kill the Gentile Martyrs who missed the Rapture but got saved later, he can not get at the Jewish Saints for the most part.

Seal #6 is Jesus FORETELLING of what God's 42 months of Wrath will soon bring, that is why the Sun & Moon going dark is prophesied here, just like in Joel 2:31 but they both come to pass with the Fourth Trump !! This is why Seal #7 is over in Rev. 8 with the Trumpet Judgments, it releases them. In between in Rev. 7 the Jews flee unto the Petra/Bozrah area. Why is the heavens silent for 30 minutes? The same reason it repented God when He flooded the earth, the angels take no joy in killing billions of human beings, its a very sad day. To John in Chapter 10m it was both bitter and sweet for that very reason. Here is what I do not understand, if I tell people this they can not get it most times, they have been conditioned that the Seals are a part of God's Wrath, but when I demonstrate a LOCKED CLOSET with 7 locks, most then can grasp it somewhat. 

So, I have many presents in my closet with 7 locks, as my friends all show up I start unlocking the locks and with each lock I foretell of one present, with Lock #1 I foretell of a nice Tie, when I take off Lock #2 I foretell of a nice leather bible present..............I get to lock number 6 where I unlock it and foretell of a nice suite my wife got me, guess what !! 6 Locks are now off the closet and no one has yet to see any of the presents I FORETOLD THEM they were going to see, but as I take the 7th Lock off, now I do not need to say anything, I just open the door. That is the 7 Seals, God is telling us He has a Scroll of His Wrath locked up and inly He can unlock that wrath. The Seals DO NOTHING in reality. They are Jesus warning us what is soon to befall mankind when that 7th Seal or Lock is finally taken off.

So, basically the 1st Woe is very, very near the middle of the week events, those who do not understand the Seals ate not God's Wrath AND that the First Four Trumps are ONE EVENT may not grasp this, that is why it is very important to grasp those facts.

4 hours ago, Triton57 said:

This would mean since their testimony is 1,260 days, it must start in the midst of the first half sometime.

 

Well, it means their Witness has to start before the east shows up, I wouldn't say in the midst or middle. Think on it like this they die at the end of the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11 (which is a Parenthetical Citation Chapter) and we thus we understand they are only dead for the 3rd Woe (which is all 7 Vials which emits from the 7th Trump), which they prayed down themselves. So, by understanding the TIMELINES as I do, and the 1335 comes 75 days before the 1260 Beast, I also understand they must die 75 days before the Beast dies at the 7th Vial so, Boom Boom, I also understand the 3rd Woe lasts for 75 days. God gave us many answers with the 1335, 1290 and 1260, we just had to wait until the very end to be given these answers.

4 hours ago, Triton57 said:

Would you hold that Ezekiel 40-48 is a picture of the millennial temple? I have a feeling looking at both historical and prophetic scripture that temple sacrifices are not over. When they were instituted, they were told to be kept for their generations, one of the reason Israel has a desire to have a temple again, the ones that care anyway.

 

They will be implemented, but God will see them as PROFANE.  Jesus is our once and for all Sacrifice. Thus when the Jews repent, millions of Jews will start worshiping Jesus in the temple from the 1335 Blessing to the 1290 AoD.

4 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I have a hard time believing that the temple of that time will have much worship of Yeshua in it, although I can't rule it out. There's a lot to wait and see how things unfold for sure.

 

Remember, these were all shadows of the true things to come, Jesus will fulfill all 7 Feasts. He is our 1.) Passover (Fulfilled) he was without sin (2. Unleavened Bread Fulfilled) he rose from the Dead (3. First-fruits Fulfilled) Jesus is now our High Priest in heaven during the 4.) Feast of weeks/Harvest/Church Age and we are harvesting soul far the Master/God so Jesus is currently fulfilling this Feast as we speak. 

The Fall Feasts yet to be fulfilled.

5.) Feast of Trumps ( This never did a whole lot, but it always ended the Harvest and pointed Israel towards the Feasts of Atonement and Tabernacles. Israel were on Lunar time, or God time, so they never knew the exact DAY nor HOUR the Lunar Phase would come in on the New Moon, so they had to sent two men up into the hills to spy it out, when they spotted the New Moon they sent word, then the Jewish leaders commenced to blowing the Shofar or Trumps in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the "LAST TRUMP" it blew longer and louder than the other 99 officially ending the Harvest. So, this is why Jesus told us only the Father know the exact Day and Hour of his coming, its a reference unto the Feast of Trumps not being a known entity. It was on God time !! Lunar Moons gave Israel their Appointed Times !! But Israel knew withing a day or two what phase of the moon they were in, we will not be surprised, look to the Fall of 2025 for the Pre Trib Rapture, WHY? Because IMHO, Apophis is going to hit this evil earth on April 13 (Friday) 2029. Take off 3.5 years and we get the Fall of 2025.

6.) Feast of Atonement (Israel must repent or Atone this happens just before the DOTL as Zech. 13:8-9 shows us.

7.) Feast of Tabernacles (to TABERNACLE with God means to Dwell with God and Jesus ruling from Jerusalem for 1000 years would indeed fulfill this !!

These Feasts were called Holy Convocations (Dress Rehearsals) and Israel were practicing these over 3000 years ago, not knowing that their Messiah would fulfill all 7 Feasts. The LAST TRUMP will be fulfilled in Rev. 4:1 where Jesus ends the Church Age when he calls us home and SOUNDS as a Trump. This ends the Church Age with a Pre Trib Rapture. Amen. 

Well 45 days is not a long time, but when 3.5 to 5 million Jews all turn to Jesus Christ, they are going to worship him in their temple. That is a no brainer, of course the Anti-Christ from afar will forbid it with political pressure.

5 hours ago, Triton57 said:

That's an interesting possible correlation of a coup of the temple. It would fit with the idea Chris White introduced in his book False Christ of a Jewish antichrist. It would make sense looking at things politically now, that the antichrist would show up as a strong man with a very Israel-first focus and a return to the ways of their ancestors. Calling out all the hypocrisy since Israel was re-formed of the Jews being kept from practicing their religion while having rocks thrown at them from the temple mount as they pray at the Western Wall, etc.

Except I am calling this False Prophet the 2nd Beast not the First Beast/Anti-Christ who can not be a Jew according to Dan. 8:9 he has to conquer from the Northwest Corridor (Greece/E.U) and he has to have Assyrian Blood (Isaiah 10). All of the Beasts were Gentile Kings. The False Prophet however will be a Jewish High Priest gone rogue like unto Jason under Antiochus. 

5 hours ago, Triton57 said:

In certain corners of Israel, whispers of messiah will grow watching the strong leader conquer. Study of Old Testament prophecy will spike as comparisons are made between the prophecies and the strong leader.

 

You see, I do not see Israel ever accepting a False Messiah, that comes from  Matt. 24 misunderstanding and from John 5:43 but Jesus was speaking SPECIFICALLY unto the Pharisees, he say YOU (Pharisees/Jewish Leaders) will nit accept me who comes from the Father but ANOTHER (Messianic man) YOU will receive. You see, the Pharisees were very intelligent, just not spiritually speaking, they knew Rome was the Fourth Beast so around 67-70 AD the started putting forth "Messianic Figures" to save them from Rome, but of course to no avail, that is what John 5:43 is referring unto not Israel accepting an End Time Gentile Anti-Christ. Matt. 24:4-6 is specifically talking about 70 AD also, Matt. 24:9-11 is talking about the Zeus/Jupiter types, and the Oracles (see Johnathan Chans book Return of the GODS) who would kill many Christians with their decrees, including all of the Disciples sabe John. 

5 hours ago, Triton57 said:

It's an interesting thought since the false prophet will be pointing to the man of sin, but there's something I'll have to think more on that makes me believe that there can't really be any kind of revealing until the man of sin stands in the temple declaring himself to be god. That's when the restrainer is removed, allowing that. I'll have to think on it some more.

 

The Holy Spirit is nit removed, look at al the Revelation plagues by the power of God. He is REMOVED from blocking the Anti-Christ or told to stop blocking him, He blocks him through the Church, us being taken away or departing removes the vessel he uses, but after we are gone his job is to go forth to get Israel to repent. 

5 hours ago, Triton57 said:

Good on you for taking her in, how many kittens? What breed was Bam? We have a Chiweenie who is getting up there in years, but she's still amazingly active for her years. It's a good thing the laser light makes her go nuts, keeps her in shape!

Bama was a Norwich Terrier. Man I got like 2 wild cats with like 8 kitties, they think I am daddy. 2 litters in like three months. I will have to get them all fixed. 

Ponder these things, you are a very interesting person, most people only talk past each other on these sites tbh. I like interacting with people who give and take on ideas. God Bless

[Diaste]

 

10 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

I'm not sure it's a mistake, a perspective maybe. I agree "I saw" is not a statement of order, but in the context of the seals, trumpets, thunders, and bowls, Revelation does seem to have a sequence to it. The mention of each of each of these in groups of seven mentioned one after the other. Although it's not a statement of order, it is ordered in that it occurs in the revelation to John after all seven seals have been broken. I'm not concerned about "I saw" being an order statement, but rather it's placement in the sentence after the seventh seal is broken and before the first trumpet is blown.

I understand. However, a book about events and the order is difficult to write, and would appear quite disorderly, if every event is placed with every other event in time as they occur. The focus on the specific events would be lost. Like a novel for instance. We see the main plot. A chapter describes people and events that move toward the climax. The next chapter reveals other people and events moving toward the same climax, and so on, until all the people and events reach the nexus. That's how Revelation is written. Some of it's in order, some of it describes event overall, then retreats to give a more detailed look into the action, some of it is in a strict order.

I was taught it was linear. In reading the book it turns out there are linear elements, but not strictly linear 1-22. 

10 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

Furthermore, I think we need to keep in context what the seals are.

 

Revelation 5:1-5

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

 

There is speculation on what is contained in the book, but I don't really think we need to go there to recognize the seals are described apart from trumpets, thunders, and bowls as seven seals that must be broken to open and read the book. It requires no trumpets to be blown or bowls poured out, just breaking the seals, which happens immediately after the Root of David takes the book.

 

I haven't given much thought to what is contained in the book other than it's the revealing of how the last 7 years are administered. It seems a simple thing in my mind the book[scroll] in question contains what is revealed in Revelation. 

 

10 hours ago, Triton57 said:

If you see the sixth seal and seventh trumpet occurring together and you see the succession between the 1 and 7, would you say then that seals 1-5, trumpets 1-6, and bowls 1-6 are not the wrath of God and the Lamb?

The bowls are specifically described as the wrath of God, seals and trumps are not. Unless some other info arises of which I am at present unaware, then seals and trumps are not God's display of unrelenting wrath, only the bowls are. 

10 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

 

One might say that it is possible for this pattern of events to be repeated outside of them being the same event. This as opposed to say the combination of Jeremiah 30:4-7, Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:15-28. Each of these passages seem to be talking about the same time, but what makes it clear that they are is they all claim that this period being spoken of is unlike any other time before or after it. That provides a logical connection that all are the same.

 

Similar to many of the comparisons to the seals, trumpets and bowls as occurring in parallel, there are variances that don't match up. Aside from the time between the 7th seal and first trumpet being another angel taking the censer and pouring it out separate from any mention of the breaking of the seventh seal, there are some differences in language as referenced above.

 

Revelation 8:3-5

And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

 

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

Revelation 16:18

And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great.

 

If you go through each of the seals, trumpets and bowls, there are sometimes similarities, but significant variances and sometimes completely unrelated without some serious twisting and bending.

But there are no contradictions. Added detail that wasn't noted earlier isn't an issue for me. If this was the approach then one would have to say many events throughout scripture happened multiple times. As an example, the narratives about the tomb after Jesus rose. One Gospel records two angels, another records only one. Jesus clearly rose only once and the difference in the narratives is not contradictory nor speaks to two resurrections.

It's the same with the details you cite above.

In my mind it's not differences nor contradictions, it's added detail. Why was it not recorded exactly word for word if they are all the same? Perhaps the focus was so narrow and intense and for a particular purpose at that moment, that detail at that time was secondary. I don't know for sure, just speculation.

However,  the citations above point to a culmination of events at a time/space nexus. We see similar occurrences after the various sets of crises. That points me to the idea the time of the end rushes toward a singular climax, all on the path to a common end.

10 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I believe there can be similarities, but at what point do we say they are the same event? For instance, if these events are all parallel such that the seals trumpets and bowls are different perspectives of the same thing, then let's look at the example of Joel speaking about the trees burning up and green grass burned up connected to the first trump and other firsts.

Not what I mean. I didn't say the seals, trumps and bowls are ALL parallel, only the seals and trumps. And they are not 1-1. The trumps may not begin to sound till well into the final week. Perhaps the trumps are the cause of conditions of some the seals, particularly the 3rd and 4th seal. If all the green grass is burned up there is no global harvest, no global harvest equals famine and death for most of the world. 

10 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

Joel 1:15-20

Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD [is] at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, [yea], joy and gladness from the house of our God? The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered. How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate. O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field. The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

 

Revelation 6:1-2

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

 

Revelation 8:7

The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 

Revelation 16:2

And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.

 

I can see the first trump relationship, but how are the grievous sores on those with the mark of the beast related to anything burning up? Looking at the second sets:

I find it enough that Joel records the word of the Lord as he does. I can see the parallel and it is enough, with the preponderance of evidence as I posted earlier, to conclude at least the 1st trump has sounded when the A of D has occurred, and before the great day of the Lord.

10 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

Revelation 6:3-4

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse [that was] red: and [power] was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

 

Revelation 8:8-9

And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

 

Revelation 16:3

And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea.

Yes. I did state the bowls are not parallel to trumps and seals. The bowls are stand alone and contain the wrath of God. It is not said the seals and trumps are the wrath of God. 

10 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

Again, the seal seems to have nothing to do with the sea, in fact he's taking peace from the earth. The trumpet and bowls have some similarities, in both the sea becomes blood, but how can it be the same event if in the trumpets only 1/3 of the creatures die while the second bowl every living soul in the sea died? Similarity doesn't translate to equality when I read these events and given the groups of seven seals, groups of seven trumpets and groups of seven bowls happen together sequentially apart from the others through Revelation and taken with the other points I can't see these as being other explanations of the same events.

I don't think, and there is no evidence, the trumps and bowls are the same events. They are not. I'm not saying the seals and trumps are the same events. They are not. I'm saying based on the whole of the evidence available to me at this time, the evidence points to the seals and trumps as occurring successive/concurrent with perhaps a simultaneous element, but that isn't necessary nor is there any evidence.

Successive in that they occur in order in the set in which they exist, concurrent in that seals and trumps occur within the same allotted time, not 1-1, all before Jesus returns. The culmination of which is the 7th trump, when immediately after the 7th seal condition come to the forefront and wrath is poured out. 

 

10 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

I may be misunderstanding your point because you seem to agree the seven bowls aren't tied to the trumpets and seals, but it seemed before you were relating them together. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.

No, no...I apologize for not doing a better job explaining. I'm aware that I can and do sort of present my thoughts in a way that sort of skims. It's a lot to develop and I have been looking and searching for a very long time. 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

"And Daniel continued (in Babylon) even unto the first year of king Cyrus. "
Daniel 1:21

"to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah... to fulfill 70 years.
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia,
that the word of the Lord spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah
might be accomplished, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus..."
2 Chronicles 36:21-23

By the above two passages we understand that Daniel was in Babylon for the whole 70 years.

 

"I Daniel understood by the books, the number of years,
whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet,
that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolation of Jerusalem.

And I prayed unto the Lord my God...
O Lord according to all they righteousness,
I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem..."
Daniel 9:2-16

In chapter 8 Gabriel was sent to Daniel to explain the vision Daniel saw, Daniel 8:16
and he gives a specific explanation of that vision; Daniel 8:20-25.

Now in chapter 9, Gabriel appears again, giving Daniel
more understanding of the 70 year captivity that Daniel was in, that was reaching it's end.
(In chapter 10 it's the third year of Cyrus)

"Seventy captivities are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city....
to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy"
(as literal King of kings, the beginning of the 1000 years)

Daniel 9:24

70 sets of 70 year captivities, 4,900 total years.

And we can see in history multiple times Jerusalem has been surrounded by armies
and made desolate and rebuilt, multiple 70 year periods.

0 - 70ad,   1090-1260,   1967 - and ongoing.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Desopixi Seilynam

[douggg]

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

"Seventy captivities are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city....
to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy"
(as literal King of kings, the beginning of the 1000 years)

Daniel 9:24

70 sets of 70 year captivities, 4,900 total years.

What bible translation that are you reading has "captivities" in Daniel 9:24 ?

[WilliamL]

On 8/25/2023 at 9:20 PM, Triton57 said:

Let me clarify that I do not believe in a "7-year tribulation." I see no association scripturally with the 70th week of Daniel and tribulation. Quite the opposite, I think that Daniel, Jeremiah and Yeshua clarify the unparalleled time of tribulation as occurring in the midst of the 70th week, not the duration of it.

Neither Jeremiah nor Yeshua even hint about a 7-year period in the End Times. Any such idea is a doctrine of men, not the Scriptures.

Nor does Daniel ever suggest at all that the 70th week will take place in the End Times. Not a peep at all about the End Times is found in Daniel 9. Again, this is a doctrine of men.

As far as the translation of הַבָּא, it literally means "the one coming in." This is an active participle with the prefix  הַ, which means "the."

An accurate translation of verse 27 can be found here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

-- from which this is the introduction:

And now we come to what may be the most variously translated – and mistranslated – verse of the Bible, Daniel 9:27. To quote from Part 1: “The translatorʼs dilemma is compounded when he has no clear understanding of the doctrine or prophecy being expressed! In such cases, the interpretation often reflects the presumptions of the translator.” Well, a plethora of presumptions have been inserted into the various translations of verse 27. The translation below will strictly follow the rules of biblical Hebrew grammar.

[Triton57]

On 8/27/2023 at 6:04 PM, Revelation Man said:

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 some odd years.

 

I don't really have an issue with it being translated as departure or as falling away or as apostasy. IMO they are effectively the same thing, you depart from something, fall away or apostatize. What about the other half of that?

 

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

Ignore the departure, there are two parts to that. Meaning that the coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him must come after the man of sin is revealed. How? He opposes and exalts himself above God, sitting in the temple of God stating he is God and demanding worship. The coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him happens after that.

 

Daniel 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Matthew 24:15-16, 29-31

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: …

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Even without an apostasy or a departure, whatever you wish to call it, the abomination of desolation and following unparalleled great tribulation in Judea happens first. There is also a logic problem. Verses 1-5 state the day of the coming of our Lord and our gathering to him cannot come unless there comes a departure (rapture) first and then the man of sin is revealed, so our departure (gathering to Him) cannot come until we're gathered to Him first and then the man of sin is revealed.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

If you take verses 1-5 at face value and there's an apostasy, then you have the falling away, man of sin revealed, our gathering to Christ. In verses 6-8 state, if what withholdeth is the Holy Spirit, then our gathering to Christ must take place before the Wicked is revealed.

 

The one way that makes sense to me is that departure/falling away/apostasy has to do with rejecting God in some way, perhaps by Israel accepting the one that comes in his own name. Then in pride he will declare himself God after the restrainer is removed. Then 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 all makes sense and fits together nicely. And Michael the archangel also fits nicely as the restrainer.

 

Quote

Well, I have a post on Daniel 11 & 12 that leans more historical in nature.

 

Ooh, that's a long one. I'm going to have to peruse that later.

 

Quote

So, God tries to reach us it seems but we allow our own knowledge, mostly gathered from other men, who came up with ideas before God was ready to reveal His end time truths and THOSE IDEAS block us from hearing God's truths. So, at that point I stepped back, told the Lord, tell me anything, I will listen, so I got used to questioning all the supposed KNOWN FACTS especially when they did not quite add up, like the Anti-Christ standing in the temple (AoD) before God gave the SIGN to the Jews to flee Judea, that never made any sense at all.

 

My prayer is as the day approaches, those Jews in Israel will be open to hearing the truth, or at least exploring it. Yeshua already told us it was coming and what to watch for. I think part of the point of the strong delusion God will send is that they believe the lie of the man coming in his own name. There's some great Christian ministries, several Jewish Messianic ministries like One for Israel that are working diligently to talk to the Israelis and plant the seeds. The watchers will know the signs, and God will not lose any that are His. John 6:35-40

 

Quote

God makes no mistakes we men either interpret the passages wrong or they got translated wrong like the 2300 Evening & Morning Sacrifices (2 a day) which equals 1500 days. So, in essence I knew to go back to how I read the Gospels as a newborn baby Christian, where I simple said, Lord, what does this mean, and I always got a answer. Prophesy was way over our heads as young Christians so we read other men's IDEAS, most were great men of the Lord, but God choses when to reveal His truths, not men.

 

Ha, that's so crazy, I was just posting about this because there were some Daniel 8 references regarding the future and it seems to me that it shows the history of Medo-Persia, Greece, etc. through to Antiochus Epiphanes IV and the first abomination of desolation. The 2,300 days points back to then and as you say the evening and morning sacrifices point to the time the Maccabees said was the period it took on a 360-day calendar totalling 1,150 days, doubled is 2,300 evenings and mornings! Here's the short article if you're interested.

 

Quote

Well, I wouldn't say he's out fulfilling  Daniel 11:36-45 (even though he is) because that makes it sound like he's conquering, the first 3.5 years remember is a fake peace of sorts (its not really peace, its more or less, imho, Israel joining the E.U. so look at it like this, after the Gog & Magog war, Israel, who currently play Football/Soccer in the Euros, and by the way who want to join the E.U. (at least many do), will be forced or STRONG ARMED (Gabor) into giving up their Nukes, but in so doing they will be offered "protection" lets say as the United States offered protection to Hawaii in order to get them to become a U.S. State. But Israel will be told they have to give up their Nukes, how else would the A.C. Conquer them? So, the first 3.5 years is more like an Agreement that starts going more and more sideways, they can see what's coming, like everyone saw what Hitler was going to do before he did it, Chamberlin tried to appease him to no avail, they gave back the Sudetenland, etc. etc.

 

I used to think this as well, but my perspective has been changing the more I take the fact that God is not done with Israel and the 70th week being about Israel to heart. I would recommend watching Chris White's Gog Magog video series too in addition to reading his book False Christ. I think he has some really good insights worth considering.

 

Quote

Seal #6 is Jesus FORETELLING of what God's 42 months of Wrath will soon bring, that is why the Sun & Moon going dark is prophesied here, just like in Joel 2:31 but they both come to pass with the Fourth Trump !!

 

I hold that the seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential mainly because the seven angels aren't given their trumpets until after all 7 seals are opened. There's also distinctions between the trumpets and bowls.

 

Quote

Remember, these were all shadows of the true things to come, Jesus will fulfill all 7 Feasts. He is our 1.) Passover (Fulfilled) he was without sin (2. Unleavened Bread Fulfilled) he rose from the Dead (3. First-fruits Fulfilled) Jesus is now our High Priest in heaven during the 4.) Feast of weeks/Harvest/Church Age and we are harvesting soul far the Master/God so Jesus is currently fulfilling this Feast as we speak.

 

Yes I understand the foreshadow was fulfilled in Christ. The blood of bulls and bullocks was never sufficient to cover sin. The dictate of God was meant to be used as a foreshadow, but also remember that God Himself told the Jews to keep these ordinances forever. Does that mean they're still trying to atone for their sins? In the millennium Yeshua will be ruling over them. I've started to rethink what might be considered offensive when Christians think of the sacrifice. Not that it's needed for forgiveness of sin, that is done in Christ, but God made it an ordinance forever for the children of Israel and it was food for the priests as well. So maybe in the millennium it will be more like a holy and sanctified barbecue where the Son of God breaks bread and eats with His people as we all worship Him together. I'll be curious to find out, but not offended at the possibility.

 

Quote

Bama was a Norwich Terrier. Man I got like 2 wild cats with like 8 kitties, they think I am daddy. 2 litters in like three months. I will have to get them all fixed.

Ponder these things, you are a very interesting person, most people only talk past each other on these sites tbh. I like interacting with people who give and take on ideas. God Bless

 

Yeah for sure lol! That might cost a pretty penny but sometimes there are places that will do at least some for free, hope you can find something to make it a little lighter on the pocketbook! Sometimes God's creation can be a little too resilient at being fruitful and multiplying!

 

I enjoy it too. I know there's a lot of heated discussions and everyone can be set in their ways for good reasons. I just want to learn more and pick up the little pearls for the bride and try and bring them all together for the best picture we can see. Looking up and forward to the promise and the blessed hope!

Edited August 30, 2023 by Triton57