The Difficult Sayings Of Jesus

[Starise]

Do you think the above verse says Jesus wanted to start trouble? 

[farouk]

On 9/6/2023 at 11:41 PM, Anne2 said:

The thing with tradition in the time of Christ, they were attempting to make it law. Usurping the authority of the high priest as judges. We calling it law from the bench, from activist Judges today. Instead of adjudicating law from the legislature, they make law in the lower courts. Of course it it makes it to the supreme court their decisions get overturned. Nothing was law without the consent of the high priest. The Sadducees and Pharisees could not agree, these disagreements were disputable matters, which were neither illegal, nor settled as law.

Deut 17:8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9  And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10  And thou shalt do according to the sentence <06310> , which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
11  According to the sentence,<06310> of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12  And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
13  And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.

#6310 in verse 10 and 11 is literally "mouth", hence oral. This was the seat of Moses.

After the temple was destroyed, and Rome established the Sanhedrin at Yavneh, it was made up of the Pharisees, not priests. That is when their traditions became called oral law.

The priests were involved in all the courts. From lowest to highest

Deut 21: 5  And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried

 

@Anne2 Re. tradition, it happens today also.............

Ppl will maybe say they are following Scripture  but in fact it may be pure tradition...............

[Anne2]

32 minutes ago, farouk said:

@Anne2 Re. tradition, it happens today also.............

Ppl will maybe say they are following Scripture  but in fact it may be pure tradition...............

Tradition in itself is not wrong.

It was usurping the authority  to themselves, given others that was the problem.

[other one]

On 9/14/2023 at 1:33 PM, Starise said:

Do you think the above verse says Jesus wanted to start trouble? 

I think one needs to look at the entire chapter for the context.

He came to upset the status quo by making a new covenant that would expand Gods people to everyone with new commandments and a new way of interfacing with God.

It was disturbing enough to the status quo that it would turn people against each other in the short run.

Did he want to start trouble......    No but he knew what he was doing would and was letting his disciples know ahead of time so they would not fall away.

[farouk]

21 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Tradition in itself is not wrong.

It was usurping the authority  to themselves, given others that was the problem.

@Anne2 In the end the authority of the Word of God itself is the main thing, not the authority of those who preach - or claim to preach - it...

(One does look for faithfulness, balance and restraint.)

[Know Jah]

I think hyperbole is a form of speech to make a point. And we today us such language to make points. therefore I don't find it odd that the bible uses all types of speech to convey thoughts.

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, farouk said:

@Anne2 In the end the authority of the Word of God itself is the main thing, not the authority of those who preach - or claim to preach - it...

(One does look for faithfulness, balance and restraint.)

I am talking about the rulers in Jerusalem in the time of Christ. Which were to keep the law and were judged by the law.

The Apostles clearly handed down tradition to keep.

I disagree that the Church did not have individuals of authority however.

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Anne2

[Anne2]

2 hours ago, farouk said:

@Anne2 In the end the authority of the Word of God itself is the main thing, not the authority of those who preach - or claim to preach - it...

(One does look for faithfulness, balance and restraint.)

And how does that authority operate in the Church?

1Ti 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

You would think the Apostles handed out bibles at Church services, reading some of the comments here.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Anne2

[Mr. M]

46 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

And how does that authority operate in the Church?

1Ti 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

You would think the Apostles handed out bibles at Church services, reading some of the comments here.

Q. Usurp authority over what man?

A. The husband.

1 Co 14:

34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 

35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

Paul's teachings are directed towards not allowing a woman to undermine her husband's authority in the home while at church meetings.

Single woman have more opportunity to minister in the Lord.

1 Co 7:

34 There is a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she who is married cares about the things of the world—how she may please her husband. 

35 And this I say for your own profit, not that I may put a leash on you, but for what is proper, and that you may serve the Lord without distraction.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Mr. M

[Anne2]

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Q. Usurp authority over what man?

A. The husband.

1 Co 14:

34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 

35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

Paul's teachings are directed towards not allowing a woman to undermine her husband's authority in the home while at church meetings.

Single woman have more opportunity to minister in the Lord.

1 Co 7:

34 There is a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she who is married cares about the things of the world—how she may please her husband. 

35 And this I say for your own profit, not that I may put a leash on you, but for what is proper, and that you may serve the Lord without distraction.

Yeah, just one example of an authority structure. It certainly was not everyone reading their own bibles.