Is praying to other saints considered a form of idolatry?

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Sorry, but that doesn't necessarily follow.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

It's very clear... "I shall know fully, even as I am fully known"

I won't have to learn Hebrew then, I'll automatically know it along with all other languages since the Lord knows all languages.

Unless you have some scripture showing we'll all have to go to school to learn Hebrew showing 1 Corinthians 13:12 is in error?

No, the Holy Ghost will be in us then without measure and we will know all things the Lord needs us to know on command, supernaturally.

I am just as close to the Lord as anyone that speaks Hebrew and it's not a requirement for gentiles that is taught in scripture.

 

13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

If one doesn't know Hebrew, one will have to speak through interpreters

Sorry, there's no scripture for that.

You are obviously welcome to post that as being your "opinion", but scripture doesn't teach this.

I'll put it this way, your opinions won't be applicable to me when we get there

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Stan Murff

[Retrobyter]

11 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

It's very clear... "I shall know fully, even as I am fully known"

I won't have to learn Hebrew then, I'll automatically know it along with all other languages since the Lord knows all languages.

Unless you have some scripture showing we'll all have to go to school to learn Hebrew showing 1 Corinthians 13:12 is in error?

Shalom, Stan Murff.

It's not 1 Corinthians 13:12 that is in error; it's one's UNDERSTANDING of 1 Corinthians 13:12 that is in error. The word used in the Greek for "I will know fully" (ἐπιγνώσομαι) and "I have been fully known" (ἐπεγνώσθην) are variations of (1921) epignooskoo ( ἐπιγινώσκω), which means, "apt, experiential knowing, through direct relationship."

If one knows some Spanish, the difference between "ginooskoo" and "epiginooskoo" is like the difference between "saber" and "conocer! " One may "know" a language (ginooskoo/saber), but one "KNOWS" (epiginooskoo/conocer) a friend! The latter means to RECOGNIZE someone!

11 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

No, the Holy Ghost will be in us then without measure and we will know all things the Lord needs us to know on command, supernaturally.

Seeing that you cannot use the above verse for this, "book, chapter, and verse, please!" Learning is NOT magic! God didn't grant "instant knowledge" for ANY of my tests in Baptist Bible College! Our grades were ALWAYS proportional to the amount of study we put into the test material! Why should the future be any different?!

11 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

I am just as close to the Lord as anyone that speaks Hebrew and it's not a requirement for gentiles that is taught in scripture.

It's not about how "close one is to the Lord"; it's about how EFFECTIVE one will be for the Lord!

Consider the following:

Isaiah 66:18-23 (KJV)

18 "For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring (not "send") all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem," saith the LORD, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites," saith the LORD.

22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me," saith the LORD, "so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before (to bend the knee to) me," saith the LORD.

and

Revelation 7:9-10 (KJV)

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb!"

"A loud voice" is SINGULAR, but these people consisted of "all ... tongues." What do you think? Is this statement in ONE language or many? If they are speaking in ONE language, which language do you think they are using?

11 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

Sorry, there's no scripture for that.

Actually, there is! 

1 Corinthians 12:4-11, 28-31 (KJV)

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
...

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? areall workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

and

Acts 2:1-24 (KJV)

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another,

"Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God!"

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another,

"What meaneth this?"

13 Others mocking said,

"These men are full of new wine."

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them,

"Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 "'And it shall come to pass in the last days,' saith God, 'I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'

22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it."

Now, let's consider: Peter is talking to all these people from all different languages. How are they able to understand him? I believe the natural conclusion is that the others were INTERPRETING his words into their languages, as he spoke!

11 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

You are obviously welcome to post that as being your "opinion", but scripture doesn't teach this.

I'll put it this way, your opinions won't be applicable to me when we get there

Why should His SECOND Coming be different than His FIRST Coming?! Sure, it's my opinion, but just a little common sense tells one that things will still work the same way. One more passage of Scripture:

Revelation 19:1-6 (KJV)

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying,

"Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

3 And again they said,

"Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever."

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying,

"Amen; Alleluia."

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying,

"Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great."

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying,

"Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

Now, what language were they speaking? Hint: "Amen" is a HEBREW word meaning "truth." (And, it's pronounced "ah-MAIN!") Another hint: "Alleluia" is a Greek transliteration of a HEBREW word, "Halleluyah!" (accent on the last syllable) meaning "Praise to YAH!"

[Know Jah]

Jesus said he is the Way, Truth, and Life. therefore I believe we must pray to God through Jesus for our prayers to be heard.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Seeing that you cannot use the above verse for this,

That's your "opinion"... thanks so much for sharing!

Yeah and "experiential knowing, through direct relationship" means the Lord will reveal to me ALL that I need to know, so I'm good to go!

Look, if you want to do the hebrew roots thing, good for you.  Happy for ya!  Hope you can keep the whole law!

But, it's not required for salvation and there's no scripture that says we are all required to learn hebrew or perish.

So, good luck with your hebrew roots thing!  Hope that works out for ya.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Stan Murff

[Still Alive]

My wife and I lost all four of our parents over the last five years. They were all over 90. Then we lost our oldest son in a car accident two years ago. 

I find that we sometimes individually will "talk to" our son, and I sometimes talk to my dad. But it's "sort of" talking to them. I know it's sort of a mental vestigial organ, but it happens. I don't consider it idolatry because I see them simply as elohim. That is, occupants of the unseen realm. Even the demons could be called elohim, in the same way that sharks are called fish - occupants of water (though there are animals that live in water that are not fish. I suppose the analogy has its limit).

They are not deity.

https://www.logos.com/grow/who-are-elohim/

Edited September 1, 2023 by Still Alive

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

Communicating with those that have passed is a legal open door for demons to come thru in to one's life primarily because the Lord never gives permission to communicate with them and numerous scriptures say it's disallowed.

I'm not sure about others, but I know I'm not interested in allow any open door for the devil in to my life.

I went thru that as a young person and almost died numerous times not to mention the endless problems demons caused in my life.

[FJK]

20 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

I went thru that as a young person and almost died numerous times not to mention the endless problems demons caused in my life.

People today tend to believe demons are imaginary and not real beings, which is another way the door is opened for their influence on us or even actual possession and control of our lives.

A topic in itself.

[Anne2]

On 8/31/2023 at 1:44 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Anne2.

No, they believe they "go to Heaven and live forevermore beatifically!" This is the SAME RIDICULOUS NOTION that is taught in the Greek philosopher Plato's teachings! And, by and large, those who call themselves "Christians" have been influenced by this philosophy ever since!

...YET! One should really read ALL the text about this encounter!

Matthew 22:23-33 (KJV)

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that THERE IS NO RESURRECTION, and asked him, 24 Saying,

"Master, Moses said, 'If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore IN THE RESURRECTION whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But AS TOUCHING THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!"

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Mark 12:18-27 (KJV)

18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say THERE IS NO RESURRECTION; and they asked him, saying, 

19 "Master, Moses wrote unto us, 'If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. 21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. 22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23 IN THE RESURRECTION therefore, WHEN THEY SHALL RISE, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife." 

24 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For WHEN THEY SHALL RISE FROM THE DEAD, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 26 And AS TOUCHING THE DEAD, THAT THEY RISE: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err!"

Luke 20:27-40 (KJV)

27 Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, WHICH DENY THAT THERE IS ANY RESURRECTION; and they asked him, 28 Saying,

"Master, Moses wrote unto us, 'If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 29 There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. 31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore IN THE RESURRECTION whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife."

34 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 NEITHER CAN THEY DIE ANY MORE: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being THE CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION. 37 Now that THE DEAD ARE RAISED, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him." 

39 Then certain of the scribes answering said,

"Master, thou hast well said."

40 And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.

In NONE of these accounts is Yeeshuwa` saying that Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV are already living! He was saying that they are ALREADY CHOSEN to be RESURRECTED!

 

Well, the problem that is found in the context of these passages (Matthew 17:1-4 and Mark 9:2-4) is that this is a VISION, not a real visitation! They did not actually see Eliyahuw ("Elijah" or "Elias") and Mowsheh ("Moses"). They saw IMAGES of them from the FUTURE! Consider:

Matthew 16:28-17:13 (KJV)

28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they SEE the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there APPEARED unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus,

"Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,

"THIS is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye HIM!"

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said,

"Arise, and be not afraid."

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,

"Tell the VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

10 And his disciples asked him, saying,

"Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?"

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

And,

Mark 9:1-13 (KJV)

1 And he said unto them,

"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they HAVE SEEN the kingdom of God come with power."

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there APPEARED unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus,

"Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying,

"THIS is my beloved Son: hear HIM!"

8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they HAD SEEN, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the "rising from the dead" should mean. 11 And they asked him, saying,

"Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?"

12 And he answered and told them,

"Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. 13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him."

So, this was a VISION about the FUTURE, not an actual visitation of "Elias and Moses."

If Catholics do not teach they are resurrected, then they are NOT teaching what the Scriptures SAY!

Your comments  are appreciated in that they would be good to address Catholics/ catholicism.

What I mean is address their beliefs and how it is error. Rather than what they do not believe.

I do not know if the difference would still be idolatry. But maybe, that as well could be exposed. But my posts concern arguments made on fallicies of what they believe. What is wrong with that idea? Some certainly do not like that, or maybe they misunderstand that. I am not sure which. But I am not  gonna bang my head against a wall at this point.  Blessings.

[Dennis1209]

In one word, to the title of this topic, absolutely. 

1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

[JimmyB]

On 9/1/2023 at 9:42 AM, Know Jah said:

Jesus said he is the Way, Truth, and Life. therefore I believe we must pray to God through Jesus for our prayers to be heard.

That isn't the case.  This is the start of how Jesus taught His disciples to pray...

“This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven." Matthew 6:8-10 (NIV and similar elsewhere).

Christians are God's adopted children.  We do not have to ask our brother to pray for us.

Also, Paul wrote this in Ephesians 1:17, "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better."

And in Philippians 1:3-6, "I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

And in Colossians 1:3-4, "We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all God’s people"

And in 1 Corinthians 1:4-6, "I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge— God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you."

And in 1 Thessalonians 2:3, " We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers. We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ."

And in 2 Thessalonians 1:3, "We ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love all of you have for one another is increasing."

 

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by JimmyB