Believers' Accountability and the Judgement Seat of Christ

[Marathoner]

26 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

“MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,

NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE PUNISHED BY HIM;

FOR WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,

AND HE PUNISHES EVERY SON WHOM HE ACCEPTS.”

"For our God is a consuming fire."

Hebrews 12:5-6 & 29

In light of what you all have shared (no need to tag everyone), all I can say is "Amen!" Edifying, all of it.  

[DeighAnn]

27 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I am thinking of this also:

Luke 12:48 (KJV) But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Emphasis added.

 

And that is one of the scariest ones of all...the more you are given, the BETTER you better represent...

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Sorry, but I'm not following this.  The Bible is plain about there being just one resurrection for all believers and one for all unbelievers.  Rev 20 puts the resurrection of believers after the Tribulation at the Second Advent, and the resurrection for all unbelievers 1,000 years later, which is at the end of the MK.  I've never heard of a "traveling throne", or "throne of His glory".

They are not Christians because Jesus plainly told them "I NEVER knew you".  He couldn't have said that to former believers.

Thank you for your comprehensive reply. It 01:30 here so I'll just answer the first point before turning in.

If our Lord Jesus is "Firstfruits" (1st Cor.15:20, 23) and we are all "planted" in death, the resurrection is a harvest. Both in nature (which shows the things of God - Rom.1) and the Bible (Lev.23) show at least THREE gatherings. (i) The first-ripe which is Christ, (ii) the first-ripe of our harvest (Phil.3:9-14) which must be ATTAINED TO, (iii) the general harvest (Rev.14) and (iv) the Gleaning (like the Two Witnesses and those beheaded by the Beast).

It is ONE HARVEST but executed over a period. In our case, spiritual maturity counts. The resurrection in Philippians 3:11 is "EX-anastasis" - literally "the resurrection out of the resurrection", or, as some translators render, "the EXceptional resurrection"

Then, we have the resurrection of Israel AFTER the Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2, Ezekiel 37).

God bless.

[Mike Mclees]

Yes, as in first Corinthians 3:12-15 the judging fire is concerning the believer's works. I think this is the same with the parable with the faithful and unfaithful servants - they are already servants of their master, so the question is, "What did you do with what I gave you?"  If they were deemed to have been faithful in just a "few things" they are praised and rewarded. However, the slothful servant received a reprimand and resulting consequence (I don't believe that consequence was loss of salvation).

I assume that Vineabider is referring to the wise and unfaithful servansts in Mat 24 verses 48- 51 I would like to look closer at the wording concerning the unfaithful servant.  Vine says this refers to a reprimand. Lets look at verse 48 reading KJV.

"but and if that "evil servant" shall say in his heart my Lord delayeth his coming; 

This does not relate to just a reprimand 

verse 51 It says "the Lord shall cut him asunder". this word is defined as riped apart or cut to pieces. This does not relate to a simple reprimand Neither does it relate to anything we would see in Heaven. Neither does weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth relate to anything you would see in Heaven.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Mike Mclees

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your reply. Instead of point by point answers, I will lay forth entry into the Kingdom of Heaven. The first thing, I judge, is to define the Kingdom. In Genesis 1:26-28 God made man to rule the earth, sea and sky and all that was in them. That he had to "subdue" implies that some sort of rebellion or disorder/discord was in progress. The councils of God are immutable. The object of subjugation and rule for men is the earth.

The previous governor, an angel of some repute (Isa.14, Ezek.28), convinced the man and his wife that God was not serious. The disobedience of man had triple consequences:
1. The man offended God. Such a slight of so lofty a Person justifies seriously felt retribution
2. The man was poisoned by the fruit of that Tree and was corrupted by it. His flesh became the source of trespasses and would eventually die
3. The man gave away his authority. The previous governor says that the earth was "delivered" to him (Lk.4:6). The inspired record says that this was a "temptation". If it were not true then it was no temptation and scripture would be untrue.

The recovery of man was also threefold.
1. The man needed his earned retribution to be payed by an eligible man
2. The man needed a fresh chance to eat from the correct Tree and so complete God's requirement to take the divine life into him and rid himself of corruption
3. The man needed to overturn his reputation as an evil steward who gave away his inheritance, and accept any training needed to resume his God-given rank of governor of the earth

The first point is achieved by AN-OTHER and lies fully outside the capabilities of the man. The man, to benefit from Jesus' substitutionary death. God is willing to impute this substitutionary retribution if the man BELIEVES in the One Who effected it

The second point lies outside the capabilities of the man. Just as Israel were bitten by poisonous serpents and the venom coursed through their inward parts to end in death, so all men are corrupt and end in death (Rom.5:12-17, 6:23). Again, God, once He has approved the substitution, imputes DIVINE LIFE to those who BELIEVE in the brass serpent on a pole.

The third point places the man, fully equipped with all that pertains to godliness (2nd Pet.1:3). The man must now undergo the discipline of applying this ETERNAL LIFE to his character (Rom.8:29). His goal is to be IN the image of Christ, IN love with Christ and IN obedience to the commands issued to him. The man has the Holy Spirit to apply this all, but he has to cooperate. He must show, BY WORKS, that he will be a good manager of God's affairs ON EARTH.

God respects the man's free will so He sets a time for the man to reach the given standards AND THEN THE MAN IS CALLED TO SHOW HIS WORKS BEFORE A DIVINE TRIBUNAL

God, knowing the man's character and the rigors of being transformed, sets before the man AN INCENTIVE. If the man is diligent and sets God's purposes before his own he will be REWARDED. This reward is to be crowned co-king with Jesus of His goods (the earth), to be famous, and to enter Christ's JOY. If the man is not prepared to be trained by his cooperation, he will not only forfeit the reward, but be BANISHED from all privileges AND Christ's JOY. The resulting AGONY and sense of loss, PLUS open chastisement (cut asunder and stripes) will produce the weeping and gnashing of teeth. Because he is found unworthy to be a co-king, he is cast away from the activities of the Kingdom and away from Christ.

The councils of God are immutable. If Romans 8:29 says that God predestined him to be conformed to the image of Christ - HE WILL BE. But the age has changed. It is now the age of the rod of iron. So his training will continue under DURESS. God's school always prevails. By he end of the 1,000 years set aside as REWARD for the others, the slothful Christian will be up to standard.

In all this, the FIRST TWO POINTS ABOVE are NOT overturned. Why? Because they were not his WORKS to lose. They were gotten by FAITH in AN-OTHER'S WORKS. Christ PAID and God APPROVED. To say that the man can overturn Christ's works is folly. And the Father, once having approved the set price, is righteous to UPHOLD CHRIST'S WORKS. No-one can defy the Father. If He approves something, who or what can overrule Him?

Thank you for the detailed explanation. Okay, that explanation makes sense to me. But how and where does the following fit in?

Matthew 8:12 (KJV) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30 (KJV) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Every commentary I have read classifies 'outer darkness' as a phrase for Hell. Jesus is Light, and the kingdom will be Light. In the beginning, by the vocabulary, it seems they are in the kingdom, then cast out of the kingdom into outer darkness.

Where is this place outside the kingdom if the whole earth is Christ's kingdom for the millennium?

Isaiah 65:25 (KJV) The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. [emphasis mine]

The preceding seems to be localized and limited to God's 'holy mountain,' comparable to the Garden of Eden inside the geographical boundaries of Eden, that needed subduing.

If I hear you correctly, the millennial kingdom would not encompass the entire earth in geography but have a boundary, possibly the size of the land grant the Lord ordained for Israel. Outer darkness would be somewhere outside of the kingdom's borders. Is this close to what you are proposing?

[Your closest friendnt]

Mathew 25:21 

21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.

@Vine Abider

This conversation above between the Master and the servant it happens during the course of the servant's life. 

Ergo it did not happen after the servant's death.  This encounter which was not the last one and many would follow it took place before the servant's death. 

Just think about that; what would the servant do with his reward if he is in the after life...can he make use of it if it was possible! 

But the reward given to him while he yet lives it can be useful while he is still alive.  

There is more in Revelation chapter two and three..Jesus gave rewards to those who listen to him and followed what he asked them while they still lived.. after their death there is recognition for what they have done for those who do not know them and who have lived in other times, centuries. Introducing them to the other children of God...

The Judgement for our works is talking place as we go on living. That's what we need to know is of how we are doing as we go along...

Edited August 31, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your comprehensive reply. It 01:30 here so I'll just answer the first point before turning in.

If our Lord Jesus is "Firstfruits" (1st Cor.15:20, 23) and we are all "planted" in death, the resurrection is a harvest.

v.23 is clear that ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes".  

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Both in nature (which shows the things of God - Rom.1) and the Bible (Lev.23) show at least THREE gatherings. (i) The first-ripe which is Christ, (ii) the first-ripe of our harvest (Phil.3:9-14) which must be ATTAINED TO, (iii) the general harvest (Rev.14) and (iv) the Gleaning (like the Two Witnesses and those beheaded by the Beast).

Except the "three gatherings" only apply to literal harvests.  There is only 1 'gathering' or resurrection.  Every mention in the Bible has "resurrection" in the singular.  

What does "those who belong to Him" refer to, if not ALL believers from Adam forward?

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It is ONE HARVEST but executed over a period. In our case, spiritual maturity counts. The resurrection in Philippians 3:11 is "EX-anastasis" - literally "the resurrection out of the resurrection", or, as some translators render, "the EXceptional resurrection"

I can't get passt 1 Cot 15:23 and its very unambiguous language.  ALL believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent.  

In the NT, every mention of the "coming" of our Lord refers to the Second Advent.  We know this because of Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

This is unambiguous.  "He will appear a second time" is clearly speaking of His second and final coming to earth, this time as King to reign for 1,000 years.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Then, we have the resurrection of Israel AFTER the Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2, Ezekiel 37).

God bless.

Dan 12:2 speaks of 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  As does John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.

We know the resurrection of the saved will be at the Second Advent, per 1 Cor 15:23 and Rev 20:4 and the resurrection of the unsaved will be 1,000 years later, which is at the end of the MK, just before the GWT judgment.  Rev 20:6-10.

[Mike Mclees]

16 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

¹² So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. [emphasis added]

Unless I missed it, thus far, I have not seen an explanation of what we will be giving an account of in our lives. We will be standing before the elevated Bema Seat, not for condemnation, but for crowns and rewards, if any.

Our confessed sins have been forgiven, are they not?

¹² As far as the east is from the west, So far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Does our account have anything to do with our sins or standing before God? I think not, as we are justified to the Father through our Savior and mediator, Christ Jesus, one of His own. It is some judgment we face. I favor the following explanation:

The Judgment Seat of Christ is that place where Christians will have their works judged by the Lord. It has nothing to do with our sins, since Christ has paid for them and they can be held against us no more (Rom. 8:1). The word for "judgment seat" in the Greek is bema, meaning the place where the judges stood at the athletic games. If during the games they saw an athlete break the rules, they immediately disqualified him. At the end of the contests, the judges gave out the rewards (see 1 Cor. 9:24–27).^[1]

The way I picture giving my account: Did the Holy Spirit direct me to do a good work, and presented me with opportunities to share the Gospel, and I ignored it or said no? Dennis, provide an account of those and explain yourself. Dennis, when you did these public good works, you called fruit. Did you do them for MY honor, praise, and glory, or your own? Just as I thought, filthy rags, wood, hay, and stubble. Let us test and refine them with fire to see if they stand the test. I suffered a significant loss of crowns, potential rewards, and kingdom responsibilities.

Still, the Lord is omniscient, knowing the beginning from the end and me from the world's foundation. The Lord knows me better than I know myself. I will not be lying, covering up, or embellishing anything standing before Jesus the Judge, nothing but the whole truth of my actions or inaction.

If the above is scripturally sound and correct, the way I understand giving an account. Then a question comes to mind:

What is the reason, purpose, or benefit of giving my verbal testimony of my failures? Is disobeying the Holy Spirit to act (works) not sin? Is doing good works on our own, not called by the Holy Spirit to do so, filthy rags?

Throughout the Bible, the Lord is a legalist; there are laws in heaven and earth. For fairness, righteousness, and legalities, sins and rewards must be judged, with the appropriate penalties or prizes administered. I wonder if 2-3 witnesses will be involved.

 

 

 

---

^[1] Wiersbe, Warren W. The Bible Exposition Commentary. Vol. 1. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1996. Print.

It is our motivations for our works that will be judged by fire weather they be good or bad, fleshly or in the spirit.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Mike Mclees

[luigi]

On 8/28/2023 at 2:05 PM, Vine Abider said:

There is a lot of ongoing & passionate debate on here about the teaching of “once saved always saved,” and that discussion goes back many years, in multiple threads. While my beliefs are that God saves people by renewing their spirit with His life, thereby making believers His children forever, my intention here is to look into the accountability side of what it means to be His children.  There is accountability and discipline for what the children of God do, after they have received His life into them. That means that because He loves His children, He wants them to grow and mature effectively in His life and thereby overcome personal sin. This requires His loving care and discipline.

Ultimately, this accountability culminates in the Judgement seat of Christ, where we will either receive rewards or loss.  This is something the children of God have to look forward to, where they can (hopefully) hear those wonderful words, “Well done good and faithful servant!  You have been faithful in a few things – enter into the joy of your Lord!” (Matt 25:23)

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10:23 that as God’s children, “all things are lawful.” That is, Christians have complete freedom to choose what they want in their life. However, in this same sentence he finishes by saying, “but not all things are profitable.” The child of God has the freedom to choose whatever he or she wants (as do all human beings due to their God-given free will), but Paul points out that the Christian’s choices may or may not be profitable or pleasing to the Lord. (The reality is we have been purchased with the precious blood of Christ and we are actually NOT our own, but He still allows us the choice.)

 Again, this has nothing to do with condemnation for sin, as that has been removed in Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice - His free gift of grace to us (also resulting in being reborn as His children). However, sin can very much still have a negative impact on the believer, even though God’s penalty for it has been removed. We cannot “play” with sin in our lives and think that there are no consequences whatsoever. God states that He actually forget our sins (Jer 31:34 & Heb. 8:12; also see Psalm 103:12), but sin in our lives can still damage us and our walk with the Lord! Sin can deceive us, dull our conscience and senses, break fellowship with God (from our side), damage human relations, cause physical issues, and many other negative things! So in this respect, these kinds of choices are certainly not profitable to born-again believer.

 The New Testament reveals there will be major, future judgments by God. Two of these are the Great White Throne, found in Revelation 20:11-15, and the Bema of Christ (often rendered “judgment seat”) found in 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10. The Bema is the first to occur of these two judgments, and Christians are the focus of examination there. Then, some time afterwards, there is the Great White Throne, which is the last judgment by God. The result of this final judgment is, “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:15). Our focus now, as believers in Christ, should only be the Bema judgment. Romans 14:12-13 says, “So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. Therefore, let us stop passing judgment on one another.” (“Bema” is a word the ancient Greeks used for a physically elevated position where awards were given to competing athletes at the Olympic Games. Paul is clearly likening the Christian life to the athletic discipline of these games and the resultant awards for competing well. See 1 Corinthians 9:24-27.)

Next up - more about the Bema Seat and its serious implications for all believers . . .

Good morning Vine Abider,

I am pretty sure that those who will have prophesied in the Lords name, and cast out devils,  and did many wonderful works In Matthew 7:22, also believed they were "once saved, always saved". But as we can see from Matthew 7:23, they apparently did not truly believe in the Lord, but instead believed in works of iniquity.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Thank you for the detailed explanation. Okay, that explanation makes sense to me. But how and where does the following fit in?

Matthew 8:12 (KJV) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30 (KJV) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Every commentary I have read classifies 'outer darkness' as a phrase for Hell. Jesus is Light, and the kingdom will be Light. In the beginning, by the vocabulary, it seems they are in the kingdom, then cast out of the kingdom into outer darkness.

Where is this place outside the kingdom if the whole earth is Christ's kingdom for the millennium?

Isaiah 65:25 (KJV) The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. [emphasis mine]

The preceding seems to be localized and limited to God's 'holy mountain,' comparable to the Garden of Eden inside the geographical boundaries of Eden, that needed subduing.

If I hear you correctly, the millennial kingdom would not encompass the entire earth in geography but have a boundary, possibly the size of the land grant the Lord ordained for Israel. Outer darkness would be somewhere outside of the kingdom's borders. Is this close to what you are proposing?

Let's get Isaiah behind us. The Church is not revealed in the Old Testament. All prophecy pertain either to Israel or the Nations. As the Covenants and the prophets tell (or foretell), Israel will be forgiven, reconciled and restored to leading Nation and host of messiah - Emmanuel. Isaiah foretells of conditions on earth during this glorious time. The animals are subdued and no danger exists for people in general.

But there is another side to this seeming paradise. When our Lord Jesus came the first time, His announcer John Baptist, He Himself and Hid disciples all taught the same thing - "The Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND." Israel, the "children of the Kingdom" refuse the King and His Kingdom. In Matthew 21:43 our Lord declares that the Kingdom, once the inheritance of Israel, is ripped away from them.

This devastating loss has not sunk in yet as they still await their Messiah and regard Jesus as imposter. But when the Kingdom is set up at our Lord's second coming, it will dawn on Israel what they forfeited. The regret and sense of loss is too great and Israel will break down in despair. You had won the lottery but lost your ticket. The $10 million was yours - but now out of reach. That explains the weeping and gnashing of teeth - signs of extreme loss. But where and/or what is "Outer Darkness"?

First, we must be true to the words. "Outer" has two meanings. It can mean "the outside" as opposed to inside. Or it could mean the furthest from a center. The Greek word in Matthew 8, 22 & 25 is the second meaning. In "comparative degree" it is the furthest from the center. Any Kingdom has three types of people. (i) the ruling class or family, (ii) the servants of the ruling class, and (iii) those ruled, or, the SUBJECTS.

The ruling family have all privileges and luxuries. The servants live in the palace with its luxury and status, but carry no title. They range from the "Esquire of the body" - the man closest to the king, to those who tend the swine. This will be Israel's position. A chosen Nation that failed to recognize their position and privilege. In it will be some glorious and some disdained (Dan.12:2). Notice Israel's future in Zachariah's prophecy in Luke 1 - Israel forgiven, restored to their land, safe and prosperous BUT SERVANTS. They had it ona plate to be the RULING CLASS, but ended as bond-servants - servants with no rights. So close to the King - but oh so far.

The Christian fares worse. By BIRTH (Jn.3:3-5, 1:12-13) the Christian is "heir to the promises" (Gal.3:29). He is royalty by BIRTH AND ADOPTION. Although he also SERVES as co-king with Christ, he has immeasurable status. He is guest at banquets with Christ. He is not wealthy. He OWNS EVERYTHING (Matt.24:47, Rom.8:32 etc.). He manages a city or cities and people bow to him/her (Rev.3:9). But the Christian who is found NOT WORTHY loses it all. He is cast to the "outer" most point from Christ and the sphere of His rule. He becomes a laughing stock for the Nations he should have ruled but is now lower than the Nations themselves.

He is banished to the "Outer" most point from Christ. Psalm 16 :11 says that the greatest pleasure in existence is to be in Christ's presence. But the slothful Christian is cast to the furthest point away from Christ. Our Lord said in Luke 16 that even the world's people will be praised, but he is, and was, stupid. He was like Esau. He had the birthright, but sold it for slop. When he should have been rewarded, he was CHASTISED!