Explaining the Clay in the Daniel 2 Statue Prophecy

[Last Daze]

On 9/9/2023 at 1:28 PM, Revelation Man said:

So, who is the "10" Iron & the Clay kings whom the end time beast/little horn arises from?

The ten horns belong to the beast who comes up out of the abyss. (Dan 7:3,7 and Rev 17:8)  They are primarily evil spirit beings who are subservient to the beast. (Rev 17:13)  Yes, they have counterparts in the natural realm who they have influenced to do their bidding but they are in no way limited to some historic geographical boundary such as the Roman empire, or Europe for that matter.  Their influence is global as they set the stage for the man of sin.

[Last Daze]

On 9/9/2023 at 5:07 PM, AdHoc said:

Nice scholarly study you made there. I think that there is one decisive point that many miss, and which, if dealt with, could be of great help. It is this.

The four (or five if you wish) world powers are consecutive. Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome all followed one another. That is, by the time Greece ruled the known world, Babylon was long gone as a world power. So how come the little stone only defeats the last one, but destroys ALL of them. How can you destroy something that does not exist?

Quite a few questions will be answered if this can be solved.

What are those kingdoms but an extension of the evil princes that spawned them?

The princes of Babylon, Persia, Greece, etc. will be / already are active again.  This can be seen in the description of the 10 horned beast from the sea in Rev 13.  He has the attributes of the other beasts.

Yes, the historic kingdoms of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome are gone but their princes are active once again and ALL will be destroyed at the return of Christ.

[AdHoc]

23 hours ago, Last Daze said:

What are those kingdoms but an extension of the evil princes that spawned them?

The princes of Babylon, Persia, Greece, etc. will be / already are active again.  This can be seen in the description of the 10 horned beast from the sea in Rev 13.  He has the attributes of the other beasts.

Yes, the historic kingdoms of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome are gone but their princes are active once again and ALL will be destroyed at the return of Christ.

I have trouble with that. According to Daniel 2:37-38 they are the historic kingdoms. Here it is;

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

1. Nebuchadnezzar is the king
2. Nebuchadnezzar is king of kings
3. The Kingdom is Nebuchadnezzar's
4. This all by way of God
5. God has given Nebuchadnezzar rule over all
6. Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold

No doubt there were evil spirits at work, but the head of gold was a man ... Nebuchadnezzar. That the Kingdom ended is shown in the next verses.

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. (Da 2:39–40)

The next Kingdom arose "AFTER THEE" (Nebuchadnezzar) and "bore rule over ALL the earth". Nebuchadnezzar and his kingdom were gone.

[WilliamL]

On 9/14/2023 at 5:23 PM, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 13 Beast = a Man just as all the Beasts started out being MEN who became Kingdom Beasts later on as Dan. 7:18 says (17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth). So, the last Beast is a MAN. 

Well then, I guess he'll sure be easy to recognize, having those seven heads.

[WilliamL]

On 9/14/2023 at 5:30 PM, AdHoc said:

I'm no Greek specialist so I rely on men who are very familiar with the language. I called up the Interlinear and find it differs to your accepted version. Who shall I believe?

Greek grammar places the conjunction gar/for after arithmos/number, whereas in English we would place it before: "for (a) number of (a) man it is..." Whether either "a" is used or is not used will be according to the opinion of the translator. Making four potential grammatically correct translations. 

Which is why I say that anyone who bases a fundamental teaching of his on this ambiguous verse is... well, 'nuff said.

[Revelation Man]

On 9/16/2023 at 4:49 PM, WilliamL said:

Well then, I guess he'll sure be easy to recognize, having those seven heads.

Firstly, Rev. 13 is Metaphoric, just like Dan. 7 EXCEPT (what you miss) in Dan. 7's Dream by Daniel we then get the "INTERPRETATION of the Dream that tells us that the Four Beast are Kingdoms started out by MEN. 

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

So, it seems you missed a key point here. 

Then in Dan. 7:24 it says HE will be diverse from the first (Rome). 

The Rev. 13 vision is a Metaphor of Imagery just like Dan. 7:7-8 was, only we got the interpretation which made it EASY for me to understand Dan. 7:7-8 in Dan. 7:17, via these Beasts were MEN who later turned into Beast Kingdoms, the Last Beast will never turn his kingdom over to another man because he only rules for 42 months so this is why Rev. 17 shows him both ARISING as a Mountain and FALLING as the Last King. Because he qualifies as both, because his Beast Kingdom only lasts 42 months. Thus he is the only Beast Kingdom to be ONE MAN and not turn into a Kingdom which was passed down unto other men.

Look for who the E.U. President is just before or just after the Pre Trib Rapture. Ole Rev Man Ron knows what to look for.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 9/15/2023 at 3:44 PM, Last Daze said:

The ten horns belong to the beast who comes up out of the abyss. (Dan 7:3,7 and Rev 17:8)  They are primarily evil spirit beings who are subservient to the beast. (Rev 17:13)  Yes, they have counterparts in the natural realm who they have influenced to do their bidding but they are in no way limited to some historic geographical boundary such as the Roman empire, or Europe for that matter.  Their influence is global as they set the stage for the man of sin.

No, that Beast is Apollyon, LOOK BACK he has NO CROWNS on, the Rev. 12 Beast has 7 Crowns on the 7 Heads, the Rev. 13 (Anti-Christ) has 10 Crowns on the Horns or Kings because he is over the E.U. which arises out of the Head of the Roman Beast (which received the Mortal Wound meaning the Beast System went away for 2000 years during the Church Age). 

Apollyon was just a Demon placed over the Mediterranean Sea Region and Israel by Satan. He was the Demon that resisted Michael for 21 days in Dan. chapter 10. There are ranked tiers in the Spiritual realm. 

[AdHoc]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Greek grammar places the conjunction gar/for after arithmos/number, whereas in English we would place it before: "for (a) number of (a) man it is..." Whether either "a" is used or is not used will be according to the opinion of the translator. Making four potential grammatically correct translations. 

Which is why I say that anyone who bases a fundamental teaching of his on this ambiguous verse is... well, 'nuff said.

I hear you. Thanks for the explanation.

[Last Daze]

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No, that Beast is Apollyon, LOOK BACK he has NO CROWNS on, the Rev. 12 Beast has 7 Crowns on the 7 Heads, the Rev. 13 (Anti-Christ) has 10 Crowns on the Horns or Kings because he is over the E.U. which arises out of the Head of the Roman Beast (which received the Mortal Wound meaning the Beast System went away for 2000 years during the Church Age). 

Apollyon was just a Demon placed over the Mediterranean Sea Region and Israel by Satan. He was the Demon that resisted Michael for 21 days in Dan. chapter 10. There are ranked tiers in the Spiritual realm. 

Tons of conjecture.  Isn't Apollyon Satan?

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Tons of conjecture.  Isn't Apollyon Satan?

No sir, Apollyon is a Demon locked up in the pit, Satan is not locked up in the pit. The CROWNS or lack thereof designate the Entity. Satan = the Red Dragon, God is not going to confuse us by calling him the Scarlet Colored Beast in Rev. 17. Every place in this evil world has a Principality in High Places as Paul stated when he said we battle not with Flesh & Blood, but with principalities in high places.

So, Satan appoints Demons unto certain areas. He appointed Apollyon the Destroyer unto Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region. His job, of course, was to do way with and/or destroy Israel. 

If one just GRASPS the facts that the Church Age is an insertion into the plans, and thus take away the Church Age and you get a full picture that shows the 7 Beasts "WITHOUT the Church Age" bringing Israel unto repentance. So, what happened unto this principality (Demon) during the Church Age? God locked him into the bottomless pit. Its right there for all to see in Rev. 13, God explains it in vivid detail, its called the Mortal Wound.

The 7 Headed Beast is an IMAGANERY FIGURE that God gives us to show us the POWERS that be. He tells who they were but are we listening? Imagine you are John, you have been carried forth in time and you see an IMAGE in the place of the Anti-Christ, and we are told about how this MAN/Beast was a part of 6 other Beast Heads, him being the 7th, and in order to get John to write and his readers to GRASP what this means he is told about the Leopard, Bear and Lion. Now its a NO BRAINER, we know this is about the Kingdoms over Israel down through the Ages. So, lets decipher it !!

John is in the DOTL on the 1260, as the Anti-Christ ARISES out of the Sea

Rev. 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns(The Beast REEMERGES after 2000 years of silence in the area), and upon his horns ten crowns(he's over the E.U.), and upon his heads the name of blasphemy(The A.C. is one of the Seven Heads).

2 And the beast which I saw(John sees into the Future and LOOKS BACK in time, in reverse order also) was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

{{{ Lets stop here, Satan is the god of this world, in Luke 4 he tells Jesus he was given Dominion over this WHOLE WORLD and all of these kingdoms, and if he would just bow down and worship him all of these kingdoms would be his, so when it states Satan gave all of these Beasts, Greece, Persia and Babylon their POWER that goes without saying, but its speaking of ALL SEVEN COLLECTIVELY, thus when one Head (Rome) receives a Mortal Wound the whole beast system dies or goes back into the Sea. Above we see it ARISIING AGAIN for the last 42 months of Satan's rule over Babylon (This Earth).  Then Jesus will take over, Amen. }}}

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death(Rome was not Conquered by ANOTHER Beast, but by the Church instead, we the Church via our blood and Jesus' vision unto Constantine, turned the Beast into a conveyor belt of the Gospel); and his deadly wound was healed(2000 years AFTER the Wound sent him back into the Sea, the Beast System returns when the A.C. once again conquers Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region): and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast(these Atheists are not "Worshiping Satan" as we think of Worship, they worship him because they love his "EVIL WAYS",  most don't even believe in Satan or God): and they worshipped the beast(they worship Mankind and this Man the A.C.), saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things(Man Beast) and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Its right there for all to see. This is a Figurative Conglomeration of all the Beast Powers who ruled over Israel, who were all given their power by Satan the Dragon, the god of this world, thus we see and are told about the Leopard, Bear and Lion to let us know this is not a REAL Beast per se. Then we are told about the Mortal Wound of Rome, this should not be that hard tbh, there was no Israel to Beast over for nigh 2000 years so 1.) There could be no Beast over Israel and 2.) The Beast that WAS when John wrote Revelation  in 90ish AD would soon go away as a power and Rome would turn from the Godless worship of Demons into a City State dedicated unto the Gospel of Jesus Chris.

No matter what we say about the RCC, the City of Rome was a key cog in the spreading of the Gospel unto the masses and thus ceased being a Beast used by Satan. 

So, what is the Beast that arises from the Sea here with 42 months left? Its the Old Rome Territory come back into existence, the European Union who then conquers Israel, her immediate neighbors and the whole North African Continent, just as Dan. 11:40-43 describes it unto us play by play.

Thus the HEALING of that Mortal Wound means Satan has mended his Beast State Figure which the Church caused to go away, because the Church is no longer on this earth holding him back, which is what 2 Thess. 2:6-7

6 And now ye know what(holy spirit working through the Church) withholdeth (Stops from coming forth) that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he(Holy Spirit) who now letteth(Binds) will let(Bind), until he be taken out of the way(His vessel which he binds with leaves their STANDING on the earth, which is what vs 3 says, we the Church will DEPART before the Wrath of God falls).

It can all be added up, but we have to restlessly follow all the leads brother.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Revelation Man