The Two Witnesses & The Detail Missed By The Experts

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Paul2 said:

   I am a Pretribulation Believer.

If that's the case and you really conclude based on the evidence there is a pretrib rapture, then in my opinion all your interpretations of prophecy are suspect from the beginning.

A pretrib rapture has no foundation of fact. All it's points are easily refuted with the very scriptures purported to be supporting evidence. 

We can get into it if you like, here:

19 hours ago, Paul2 said:

 

All major prophecy teachers teach that Israel will enter into a 7 year covenant or treaty with the Antichrist and "many". My point is Israel will never enter into a 7 year covenant.

From a passage concerning the end of the age and the return of the Lord to rule the earth:

"

Therefore hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers

who rule this people in Jerusalem.

15For you said, “We have made a covenant with death;

we have fashioned an agreement with Sheol.

When the overwhelming scourge passes through

it will not touch us,

because we have made lies our refuge

and falsehoode our hiding place.”

They will enter into an agreement knowing the outcome. This is related to the Dan 9:27 agreement.

Do you have any evidence showing Netanyahu will never accept nor agree to any agreement with a 7 year duration? Is this a Jewish or Israeli law, policy, general sentiment or rule?

19 hours ago, Paul2 said:

 

Antichrist receives full power on the day of the Mid week. Satan is cast to the earth on the same day. Antichrist begins his 42 month reign by killing the two witnesses and entering into the rebuilt temple Known as the Abomination of Desolation.  At the Mid-Week jews will flee to the wilderness for exactly 1260 days. the phase: "a time, times, and a half a time, is saying "a time" (1 year), "times" (2 years), "and a half a time" (half a year).

It would seem to me no one knows the exact days. What if the witnesses show up three days after the beast take power? When does the beast take power? At the deadly head wound or at the A of D? And if he does take power at the A of D, is it that moment? Maybe he declares himself God the next day.

I'm just saying we don't know the witnesses will be defeated at midday on day 1260, we only know their ministry is 1260 days, we have no evidence to confirm when that ministry begins.

19 hours ago, Paul2 said:

 

 

Revelation 13 :5 And there was given unto him (Antichrist) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

      Antichrist was given his power on the day of the Mid Week, and 42 months, the second half of Daniel's 70th week to reign.

 

This isn't really known either, it's assumed mainly because it's tidy and orderly for the mind of man. The general idea is 'middle', not 'median'. 

19 hours ago, Paul2 said:

 

Revelation 12:6 And the woman (Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (1260 days)."

    Israel flees to the wilderness on the day of the Mid-Week, and for 42 months, or 1260 days, or "A time, times, and half a time, they are in the wilderness, protected by God.

 

And where does scripture give the day this begins? Does scripture say this begins at the midpoint? 

19 hours ago, Paul2 said:

 

 

 

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

¹³ And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

¹⁴ And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (1260 days), from the face of the serpent.

   Satan is cast from heaven on the day of the Mid-Week, and for 42 months, or 1260 days, or "A time, times, and half a time, Satan empowers the Antichrist.

 

All we see is duration. We can speculates when it all begins, but we do not know. That information is not readily available.

19 hours ago, Paul2 said:

 

   Jesus Christ returns to earth on the last day of the 70th week of Daniel. Jesus Christ ends the 42 month reign of the Antichrist.

 

False. Jesus returns at the 6th seal. 

 

 

[Paul2]

Diaste, 

    You stated I am wrong about Jesus returning on the last day of the 70th week, the last day of the Antichrist's reign. My question to you is when is the sixth seal opened? I'll answer that, it is opened at the ceremony in Heaven on the last day of Daniel's 70th week. The 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials are all part of a ceremony hours before the Second Coming. John is shown that the effects of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials all take place during the 70th week. Jesus returns on the day the 6th seal is opened, same day as the 7th trumpet sounds, from Heaven's perspective. John is taken to the ceremony when Jesus Christ receives the title deed to the earth. John sees the effects that took place on the earth triggered by the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials.

    Revelation 7:13 "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    John sees the martyred tribulation saints at the ceremony, before the 7th seal, and before any of the 7 trumpets and 7 vials. If you see the ceremony in Heaven as a continuous ceremony all happening on the last day of the 70th week of Daniel, the day of the Second Coming, there is no problem. The problems arises when you see the ceremony split up, with time in-between,  added for the effects to take place in chronological order.  The effects are not in chronological order. 

    Satan is cast from Heaven as the effect of the 5th trumpet, which takes place on earth the day of the Mid-Week of the 70th week, the day the Great Tribulation begins. Satan has 1260 days on earth before Jesus Christ's Second Coming, when he is locked up for a thousand years. John saw the martyred tribulation Saints in Heaven before the 7th seal was opened. If the effects of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials were chronological in order this would be a major problem. If you understand the Heavenly ceremony of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials all take place on the day of the Second Coming, the last day of the 70th week everything fits perfectly.

   Does Jesus return on the day the 6th seal is opened? YES!

   Does Jesus return on the day the 7th trumpet is sounded? YES!

   The 3 woe trumpets, the 5th, 6th and 7th effects on earth are separated by earth time. John travels through time to see the effects of what is taking place. He was recording for us what the effects were and their timing from our perspective. All the events of the Book Of Revelation that seem out of sequence make sense when you see the ceremony John was witnessing was taking place on the Day Of the Second Coming.

[Keras]

On 12/18/2023 at 1:43 AM, Diaste said:

Jesus returns at the 6th seal. 

Although I generally agree with your post above, I have to take exception to the idea that the Sixth Seal is opened at the glorious Return. 

Firstly; how can a scroll be unrolled and actioned before all its seals are removed? 

Secondly; when Jesus Returns, all the wrath of God is over. Revelation 15:1

It will be the soon to happen, sudden and shocking Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, which will commence all the Prophesied end time things, leading up to God defeating the armies at Armageddon by a violent earthquake and huge hailstones. Revelation 16:17-21.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Keras said:

Although I generally agree with your post above, I have to take exception to the idea that the Sixth Seal is opened at the glorious Return. 

Firstly; how can a scroll be unrolled and actioned before all its seals are removed? 

Secondly; when Jesus Returns, all the wrath of God is over. Revelation 15:1

It will be the soon to happen, sudden and shocking Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, which will commence all the Prophesied end time things, leading up to God defeating the armies at Armageddon by a violent earthquake and huge hailstones. Revelation 16:17-21.

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

From the above it looks as though the scroll is being opened throughout all the seals while in the throne room. 

Of course none of the events depicted by the opening of the seals is happening, it's a revealing, a revelation, of what will occur at the end of the age.

I think what we see is order of events and the results when it all begins to take place. I don't think we are waiting for the scroll to be opened by the breaking of the seals at some future date; the scroll is opened, the seals loosed, the revelation given. 

I just use the nomenclature provided in the text as a marker for clarity. Clearly the 6th seal is opened after the 1st seal, so as a progression the events the 1st seal precedes the events of the 6th seal, so in that way Jesus does make His appearance at the opening of the 6th seal, it's an immutable imperative that will happen in the prescribed order, when it all begins to take place.

15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

The above is the 6th seal events. This is when Jesus appears and wrath begins, it is come, not ending.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 12/17/2023 at 1:20 PM, Paul2 said:

Diaste, 

    You stated I am wrong about Jesus returning on the last day of the 70th week, the last day of the Antichrist's reign.

Yes. Jesus returns when GT is determined to be over, before the end of the week, wrath then commences with the bounds of the last week, punishing the beast kingdom right to the end of the 70th week. When wrath falls the beast still has a kingdom:

10And the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish 11and curse the God of heaven for their pains and sores; yet they did not repent of their deeds.

And the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the East.

13And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs coming out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14These are demonic spirits that perform signs and go out to all the kings of the earth, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.

"Two things here;

When wrath falls the fifth bowl is poured out on the kingdom of the beast.

The beast still has influence over the earth here as well since at the point of 6th bowl the beast and the FP send out deceptive messages to all the kings of the earth, to gather for the final battle. 

 

On 12/17/2023 at 1:20 PM, Paul2 said:

 

 Jesus returns on the day the 6th seal is opened, same day as the 7th trumpet sounds, from Heaven's perspective. 

Excellent insight. From our perspective as well, when it all begins to happen.

On 12/17/2023 at 1:20 PM, Paul2 said:

    Revelation 7:13 "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    John sees the martyred tribulation saints at the ceremony, before the 7th seal, and before any of the 7 trumpets and 7 vials. If you see the ceremony in Heaven as a continuous ceremony all happening on the last day of the 70th week of Daniel, the day of the Second Coming, there is no problem. The problems arises when you see the ceremony split up, with time in-between,  added for the effects to take place in chronological order.  The effects are not in chronological order. 

    If the effects of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials were chronological in order this would be a major problem.

 

It's a successive concurrence all culminating at the 7th seal, which is the end.

On 12/17/2023 at 1:20 PM, Paul2 said:

 

   Does Jesus return on the day the 6th seal is opened? YES!

   Does Jesus return on the day the 7th trumpet is sounded? YES!

 

Very good! Now. add into that the gathering of the saints at the 6th seal and the 7th trump, the last trump as spoken of by Paul.

On 12/17/2023 at 1:20 PM, Paul2 said:

 

   The 3 woe trumpets, the 5th, 6th and 7th effects on earth are separated by earth time. John travels through time to see the effects of what is taking place. He was recording for us what the effects were and their timing from our perspective. All the events of the Book Of Revelation that seem out of sequence make sense when you see the ceremony John was witnessing was taking place on the Day Of the Second Coming.

Nothing seems out of sequence or order to me. I'm just trying to discern the divine administration of the order.

[Keras]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Of course none of the events depicted by the opening of the seals is happening, it's a revealing, a revelation, of what will occur at the end of the age.

This idea is wrong, as all those events cannot happen simultaneously. 

The first five Seals are open, proved by all the martyrs since Stephen. The Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event and we can see today why God will send His fiery wrath, with the intractable situation in the Middle East. God intends to solve this crisis with a sudden and shocking disaster as described in over 100 Prophesies. 

Wait for the Day! Zephaniah 3:8

[douggg]

On 12/16/2023 at 11:14 AM, Paul2 said:

^{Daniel 12:11} And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

¹² Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    The events in the above two verses will take place after Jesus returns. 30 days after his return for verse 11, and 75 days after he returns for verse 12. There is the cleansing of the temple, restoration of earth, resurrections of old testament saints, judging of the nations, which will take place after His return.

No, you have that wrong.

The abomination of desolation will be the statue image of the beast-king that the false prophet will set up on the temple mount.

The statue image will be standing on the temple mount 1335 days until the day that Jesus returns.

On the day that Jesus returns, He destroys the statue image, turns it to ashes.    Why?

Because Satan will be indwelling the statue image, making it appear to come alive and speak.

Everyone who worships the statue image will unknowingly be worshiping Satan.    When the statue image is turned to ashes and Satan exposed, those people are going to be shocked to discover that it was Satan that they had been worshipping.

-------------------------------------

How do we know that Jesus turns the statue image hiding Satan within into ashes ?

Because in Ezekiel 28:16-19 is the judgment on Satan.   Satan is going to get exposed and cast into the bottomless pit prison, the day that Jesus returns.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

So the statue image worshipers are going to be astonished when they see it was Satan they had been worshipping.

----------------------------------------

The 1290 days and the 1335 days, therefore, cannot extend beyond the day that Jesus returns - because both timeframes are relevant to the abomination of desolation statue image standing on the temple mount.

On day 1185, the statue image will be placed on the temple mount.    1335 days before the day Jesus returns to turn it to ashes, exposing Satan.

Counting forward from day 1185 - 1290 days, the sixth seal event takes place and the world sees Jesus in the third heaven, sickle in hand, prepared to execute judgment on the wicked.  On day 2475.

In reaction, over the next 45 days the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon, and also surround Jerusalem, taking half the city as hostages.       

On day 2520, Jesus descends to the Mt. of Olives, splits it in half, and the hostages flee through the valley to safety.

Jesus stares the statue image into ashes as it goes up in flames - exposing Satan there on the temple mount.     Then after casting the beast-king and the false prophet into the lake of fire, Jesus speaks and the armies surrounding Jerusalem fall dead.

The rest of the armies outside of Jerusalem are then slain by an angel, Revelation 14:17-20.

Then an angel descends from heaven in Revelation 20:1-3 binds Satan with a chain and Satan is cast into the bottomless pit prison.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by douggg

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Keras said:

This idea is wrong, as all those events cannot happen simultaneously. 

The first five Seals are open, proved by all the martyrs since Stephen. The Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event and we can see today why God will send His fiery wrath, with the intractable situation in the Middle East. God intends to solve this crisis with a sudden and shocking disaster as described in over 100 Prophesies. 

Wait for the Day! Zephaniah 3:8

Well, do we not read the seal is opened and then see the contents of what was previously hidden?

I didn't say anything happened simultaneously, I said the opened seals have revealed the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

The underlying idea of Revelation is all this will come to pass, and we are shown what it is that will comes to pass, when it all begins to come to pass. 

Like it's written right there in the text:

Then I watched as the Lamb opened one of the seven seals,

3And when the Lamb opened the second seal,

5And when the Lamb opened the third seal,

7And when the Lamb opened the fourth seal,

9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal,

12And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal

And:

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet,

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, 

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, 

12Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet

John saw it all happening in the vision. It's not happening, it's been revealed this is what will happen through the opening of seals and the sounding of trumps. 

Like the 6th seal, we know what will happen what that time comes. The Seal locked up the revelation of the events, Jesus loosed the seal and showed us what was previously hidden. 

[douggg]

11 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Well, do we not read the seal is opened and then see the contents of what was previously hidden?

I didn't say anything happened simultaneously, I said the opened seals have revealed the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

The underlying idea of Revelation is all this will come to pass, and we are shown what it is that will comes to pass, when it all begins to come to pass. 

Like it's written right there in the text:

Then I watched as the Lamb opened one of the seven seals,

3And when the Lamb opened the second seal,

5And when the Lamb opened the third seal,

7And when the Lamb opened the fourth seal,

9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal,

12And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal

And:

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet,

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, 

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, 

12Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet

John saw it all happening in the vision. It's not happening, it's been revealed this is what will happen through the opening of seals and the sounding of trumps. 

Like the 6th seal, we know what will happen what that time comes. The Seal locked up the revelation of the events, Jesus loosed the seal and showed us what was previously hidden. 

The book that Jesus removed the seven seals to reveal what is inside is about the events that will take place in the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 to complete the seventy weeks determined on Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem.

And to complete the mystery of God, spoken of Revelation 10:7....

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.                                 

The mystery of God is God's plan to undo all the damage done to creation by Satan and his angels.   And to redeem mankind.   And to restore the earth.   

The mystery of God is the whole of the bible.

[Keras]

7 hours ago, douggg said:

The book that Jesus removed the seven seals to reveal what is inside is about the events that will take place in the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 to complete the seventy weeks determined on Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem.

So; are the souls of all the martyrs since Stephen, not under the Altar in heaven? Revelation 6:9-11

The Fifth Seal must be opened and Seals 1-4, proved by the wars, famines and plagues we have experienced. 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Like the 6th seal, we know what will happen what that time comes. The Seal locked up the revelation of the events, Jesus loosed the seal and showed us what was previously hidden. 

Just like any information, things described happen when the right time comes.  With the first five Seals, their time came when Jesus Ascended to heaven and took the scroll from the hand of God. 

You and Dougggg like to play fast and loose with the as Written sequence of Revelation. Placing the Sixth Seal at the time of Jesus' Return, is wrong and contradicts much Prophecy. The Glorious Return is described in Rev 19-20, It does not match Rev 6:12-17