An End-Time Consideration

[Ray12614]

Dennis: Keep your tin foil hat on . . . . I'm joking . . . 

One thing we know for sure is that the times are coming around full circle with an heightened frequency of events, and nations shifting into place as seemingly a alignment that only God could do . . . 

I do have an opinion about judgement though . . . judgement is not only to judgement against evil, but, judgment of what is good and what is ready.

For instance, last summer I planted a garden, and my sweet corn was very abundant in producing ears of sweet and wonderful corn for eating corn-on-the-cob. When the time was close to harvest, I would walk though the corn patch 'squeezing' the ears of corn to determine how ripe the corn was. When the best time to harvest came (judgement was good) I picked the corn. Some of the corn was fully mature, some moderately mature. However, some of the ears were not ready at all, and I had to leave them in the patch so they could grow more and become more mature.

So . . . in the mean time, lets grow in the Lord, and allow the Master to 'squeeze' us and check our fruits. May we be counted (judged) worthy to 'escape' (Jesus' words not mine) all the events that seem so much closer now . . . 

[Starise]

15 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

good to discuss these details of God`s word but we need to be careful of conjecture. 

The context of the `took` and `taken` is like the days of Noah, - people going about their lives till they were taken away in judgment.

`the flood came and took them all away,` (Matt. 24: 39)

`took` - Gk. `airo` to lift, by implication to take up or away.

 

`one will be taken...` (Matt. 24: 40)

`taken` - Gk. `paralambano` fig. take.

 

The focus is on God taking people away in judgment.

 

 

I see the context here as the FLOOD taking them away with THEM being those who didn't make it.

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

good to discuss these details of God`s word but we need to be careful of conjecture. 

The context of the `took` and `taken` is like the days of Noah, - people going about their lives till they were taken away in judgment.

`the flood came and took them all away,` (Matt. 24: 39)

`took` - Gk. `airo` to lift, by implication to take up or away.

 

`one will be taken...` (Matt. 24: 40)

`taken` - Gk. `paralambano` fig. take.

 

The focus is on God taking people away in judgment.

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Starise said:

I see the context here as the FLOOD taking them away with THEM being those who didn't make it.

You're going to have to deal with the grammar I pointed out. If you don't, and you keep your view, it means then that those "taken" in judgment by the thief are the watchful and who had, as their Lord, Jesus. That is, judgment when they have served well - for no evil is shown. You have then to explain why a watchful servant is LEFT to the "days of Noah ans subsequent judgment when Luke 21:36 says the watchful one ESCAPES. You'll have to explain whose "House" it was in Noah's time (before the Nations).  You'll have to explain why our Lord terms Himself a Thief but only comes for the evil ones.

This is the context:

In 24:3 the disciples asked three questions. His answer is to them deals with the fate of the Jews 4-31 from the destruction of the Temple till their gathering from the diaspora (only the Jew was dispersed to the "four winds"). In this section, everything is Jewish. Even the disciples who asked the questions are sent to the "circumcision" with the gospel of the kingdom (Gal.2).

- Then, our Lord abruptly changes to a PARABLE. According to Matthew 13:10-11 a Parable is only given to the Church.
- Instead of a "sign" like wars, false Christ's etc, our Lord alludes to the moral condition of Noah's time as "sign". Bringing in Noah's day to the Apostles points to one thing - UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT
- Then he introduces HOW His SERVANTS escape. An Ark will help little. So by what means does a watchful servant escape? In Philippians 3:14 it is by the PRIZE of the "Upward call" (Lit. Gk). In Luke 21:36 it is to "stand" before the Son of man who is in the clouds, and so "escape". In Revelation 3:10 it is to be "kept from the HOUR"
- Then in verse 44 the disciples are warned to be ready
- Then another PARABLE follows about a SERVANT of the Lord who turns to evil
- The another PARABLE follows about Virgins. Only Christians are called "Virgins" in the New Testament (2nd Cor.11:2)
- The another PARABLE follows about SERVANTS who must manage THEIR Lord's Goods.

I think you will agree that considering the questions asked, the Period they asked about, and the constant pointers to the Church, the context can hardly be the victims of the great flood.

[Starise]

This to me this is like saying, is he going or coming? Obviously the lost were LEFT in the flood. Was Noah TAKEN? I would say him and his family were saved, not taken.

I think we agree on all of this. It's just the way it was said that threw me off. I was only looking at and quoting that small statement. If we are only looking at the events of the flood then the evil were taken in the flood.

If a person is looking at what we call the rapture, it's a time frame with judgement for the wicked but also a leading of the lost to hopefully repent irrespective of whether you're pre trib or not. At some point the sheep are removed from the goats. The wheat from the tares, but usually in these contexts the removal is seen as the good removed from the bad, so it can be a play on words. 

Noah was removed from the flood , but we could say the wicked were removed from the world as well. Make sense?

[Mr. M]

On 1/8/2024 at 5:39 PM, Dennis1209 said:

There have been many speculations from books such as the Left Behind series, where people are suddenly missing with a pile of clothes left behind. Those left behind are frantically running around their house and corn fields, searching for their family and loved ones who were just there. Is there any Biblical precedence for that type of scenario? No.  

I have read through many, many threads over the years of well minded believers trying to make sense of this doctrine of a rapture. If I wanted to believe such a thing, I no doubt would rely upon the scriptures cited by its proponents. If I wanted to cast serious doubts of its verity, or the manner it which it would occur, there is plenty to work with in that regard. As to the edification of the Body of Christ?

Ezekiel 34:

17 And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord God: Behold, I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats. 

18 Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture—and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? 

19 And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet.

20 Therefore thus says the Lord God to them: Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 

21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 

22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

 

You might want to reconsider.

The first thing is that the Greek for "Taken" in the flood is "airo", meaning; "be lifted up and suspended". The Greek for "taken" in verses 40-41 is "paralambano", meaning; "to take with as a well known acquaintance".

The second thing is the text itself. It reads;

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took (airo - Gk) them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken (paralambano - Gk.), and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for YE know not what hour YOUR Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be YE also ready: (Mt 24:39–44).

1. The TWO are in CONTRAST to the ones "taken in the flood". Those taken in the flood are marrying while the TWO are working
2. Of those marrying are ALL taken. Of those working HALF are taken
3. The "therefore" in verse 42 is the conclusion of the "watching" and the "watching" is for YOUR Lord. The disciples are meant
4. "YE know" confirms that the disciples are meant

5. The TWO belong to a HOUSE even though they are in the FIELD and MILL. That is only possible if they were the Church
6. "Therefore be YE ready" confirms that the house will be divided if some watch and some don't
7. The House is broken up by the "PRESENCE" (parousia - Gk) of the Lord. The Thief is "present" to take what is valuable. Three peoples are in view. (i) Those marrying like the days of Noah, (ii) those of the House "LEFT" because they did not watch, and (iii) those who are watchful and thus valuable (Overcomers - Rev.3:2-3)

Hi Ad Hoc,

1 & 2. Those taken in the flood and in the field, and at the mill, were all doing everyday activities - eating, drinking, marrying, sleeping, working.  

3 & 4. Watch. otherwise you`ll be with the hypocrites where there is weeping and gnashing...judgment. 

5 - 7. The revelation of the church was not revealed at that time but given to the apostle Paul when the Lord ascended to the Father.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

You're going to have to deal with the grammar I pointed out. If you don't, and you keep your view, it means then that those "taken" in judgment by the thief are the watchful and who had, as their Lord, Jesus. That is, judgment when they have served well - for no evil is shown. You have then to explain why a watchful servant is LEFT to the "days of Noah ans subsequent judgment when Luke 21:36 says the watchful one ESCAPES. You'll have to explain whose "House" it was in Noah's time (before the Nations).  You'll have to explain why our Lord terms Himself a Thief but only comes for the evil ones.

This is the context:

In 24:3 the disciples asked three questions. His answer is to them deals with the fate of the Jews 4-31 from the destruction of the Temple till their gathering from the diaspora (only the Jew was dispersed to the "four winds"). In this section, everything is Jewish. Even the disciples who asked the questions are sent to the "circumcision" with the gospel of the kingdom (Gal.2).

- Then, our Lord abruptly changes to a PARABLE. According to Matthew 13:10-11 a Parable is only given to the Church.
- Instead of a "sign" like wars, false Christ's etc, our Lord alludes to the moral condition of Noah's time as "sign". Bringing in Noah's day to the Apostles points to one thing - UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT
- Then he introduces HOW His SERVANTS escape. An Ark will help little. So by what means does a watchful servant escape? In Philippians 3:14 it is by the PRIZE of the "Upward call" (Lit. Gk). In Luke 21:36 it is to "stand" before the Son of man who is in the clouds, and so "escape". In Revelation 3:10 it is to be "kept from the HOUR"
- Then in verse 44 the disciples are warned to be ready
- Then another PARABLE follows about a SERVANT of the Lord who turns to evil
- The another PARABLE follows about Virgins. Only Christians are called "Virgins" in the New Testament (2nd Cor.11:2)
- The another PARABLE follows about SERVANTS who must manage THEIR Lord's Goods.

I think you will agree that considering the questions asked, the Period they asked about, and the constant pointers to the Church, the context can hardly be the victims of the great flood.

Hi Ad Hoc,

same mistake the church is NOT revealed at that time, only when the Lord ascended to the Father, did He reveal the Body of Christ to the Apostle Paul.

[Mr. M]

51 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

1 & 2. Those taken in the flood and in the field, and at the mill, were all doing everyday activities - eating, drinking, marrying, sleeping, working.  

3 & 4. Watch. otherwise you`ll be with the hypocrites where there is weeping and gnashing...judgment. 

5 - 7. The revelation of the church was not revealed at that time but given to the apostle Paul when the Lord ascended to the Father.

What does the revelation of the church have to do with judgment? 

Paul is not talking about the church, and the inclusion of Gentiles, he is talking as a trained Pharisee on the nature of judgment, and who will stand on that day.

He does rightly assign the authority to execute that judgment to Jesus.

He is only preparing his case that if the Gentiles will be judged on that day, then naturally the Father would have made a way for righteousness by faith for all, and not just Jews.

Romans 2:

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 

15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 

16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 

26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 

27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 

 

Edited January 11 by Mr. M

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

What does the revelation of the church have to do with judgment? 

 

 

 

 

Hi Mr M,

It was Ad Hoc who said that the Church is there on the `as Noah days.`

[Dennis1209]

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

- Then, our Lord abruptly changes to a PARABLE. According to Matthew 13:10-11 a Parable is only given to the Church.

Good morning,

It is always wonderful to discuss God’s Word and compare notes. Let’s take this one bite at a time. As always, I am not disputing opinions but comparing notes.

Where do you see the “church” in Matthew 13:10-14?

The audience: The disciples ask (Jews-Israel), Jesus answers, it is given to you (Israel). The subject is the kingdom of heaven and to whom it should be given. John the Baptist came preaching the kingdom of heaven; Jesus continued with it until they would reject it, so it has been delayed, “but to them it is not given.” Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

I take the “them” as the gentiles. To paraphrase Matthew 13:12, if you know a little truth and you want to know more, the Lord will add to it. If you do not want to know the truth, the Lord will see to it that you will not get it. I associate that thought with Romans 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.